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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 382

post #11431 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Sorry but that is a lame question. rolleyes.gif

The short answer is that CD's do not have the "best SQ out there". The one used in the Noesis 212 has very low distortion and provides a level of detail that rivals the best dome (and perhaps ribbon) tweeters. The nice thing about these CD's is that you get that SQ at virtually all SPL levels so when watching a Concert DVD or movie @ reference level, you don't have to worry about having your dome tweeters ending up in your lap ...

Not sure why that's a lame question???
In my inexperience I am curious. As I stated I am not making a case for soft dome tweeters and am looking for the logical rebuttals
post #11432 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Most compression drivers cannot compete with the best dome tweeters or ribbons at low volumes for SQ. That is a fact IMO. The CD in the Noesis represents one of the best CD's currently on the market regarding low volume SQ, but I will not say it is "the best" since that designation is always a subjective one. Everything in audio has some tradeoff of extreme performance in one area to meet performance goals in another. The trick is to find components that represent the smallest tradeoff possible. There is not one way to get there and any conversation that doesn't acknowledge that fundamental truth will likely be a dead end.

I would simply turn around his question and ask him if the Triad tweeter/waveguide is "the best", why don't all HiFi speakers have them?

Kinda laughed when I read this.

Is it fact or opinion?

Or do you consider it a fact where others consider it an opinion?

You know I'm just giving you a hard time man.
biggrin.gif
post #11433 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

No, I mean that the actual chip that will be used, has been ready for almost a year already, I have no idea if any current unit on the market have it built in. What I'm saying is that there will be new features etc and the chip tech has been ready for almost a year and even though there are still features to be announced, they will all be taken care of in a firmware update. I don't mean that units already have the chip on board but they have had the tech for over a year so it's very possible that some may, but I don't know about that.
I get all my info from an exec friend at Sony (who's brother I've done lots of work for) and my buddy at Panasonic's development team. Both have been 100% right about all info that they've given me. from the 1000ES's upgrade boards, to the chip used in the the new 2.0 boards to it's feature list (6 months before release) to the exact release date.

Any more info I get, I'll happily share with everyone as they are both fine with it.

Thanks bro. I just read too much into your original post. Sounds like we are on the same page...though it sounds like you are getting to the page before me with your connections to Sony and Panasonic :-)
post #11434 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Most compression drivers cannot compete with the best dome tweeters or ribbons at low volumes for SQ. That is a fact IMO. The CD in the Noesis represents one of the best CD's currently on the market regarding low volume SQ, but I will not say it is "the best" since that designation is always a subjective one. Everything in audio has some tradeoff of extreme performance in one area to meet performance goals in another. The trick is to find components that represent the smallest tradeoff possible. There is not one way to get there and any conversation that doesn't acknowledge that fundamental truth will likely be a dead end.

I would simply turn around his question and ask him if the Triad tweeter/waveguide is "the best", why don't all HiFi speakers have them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Those voltage numbers are for the most part spot on with pro vs. consumer line levels. .9 volts is what most consumer gear need to drive similar components properly. Pro gear has a high voltage of around 2 volts +/- to drive their amps to full range. This is why the 20 volt version of the mini is considered "balanced" but also outputs enough at that 2 volt mark that it can drive just about any pro style gear. Now, why did speakerpower choose the +4dBfs as their required input voltage for full power? Quite simply so they wouldn't be ruled out for any other optional devices in the chain before it.
Hey, thanks man! and I agree here, these are excellent in room graphs. Truly impressive. keep in mind these are not even close mic measurements, but at the MLP.
Ability to tackle dynamic peaks. Soft dome tweeters are just fine for 100dB peaks at 1-2m. You get these larger dedicated spaces in homes, and start cranking material past reference and your little dome tweeter is going to be a smelly black mess.

Very nice answers! Makes sense. Good question to pose too!
post #11435 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

The Dick Clark amp Challenge.
http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm

The AVS thread if anyone is interested.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430228/10-000-amp-challenge-query/0_100#post_22417553

The FP10KQ Clone is 1/6 the price of the OEM. I mean, what does it hurt to just take a chance on a Clone?

I'd understand if we were talking American made product vs. foreign, but the Labs are Swedish, right?

If you were to do an A/B with a OEM LG vs a Clone, and could not tell a difference (as Dick's challenge suggests)... would you care? Or still be convinced that a real LG was necessary?

I understand if it's more of a moral/ethical consideration vs. monetary and if that's the case, cool... But to call the Clone's "crap" doesn't really seem justified.

I have not seen a single piece of evidence that the clone amps are built to the same specification as the OEM. Yes, I know that there are components that are difficult to say if they are the same or not, but NOBODY knows. This is not about SQ, but quality of components, quality control, and yes, some ethical issues I have with stealing IP and diluting the market so the OEM has more difficulty investing in R&D costs for their future products.

How many clone amps do you think are in touring rigs currently? My guess is the number is very small because professionals require exceptional reliability of their equipment. Personally, I want that same reliability so I don't have a bunch of guests over only to have my equipment crap out on me. All I have read also brings into question whether the protection circuits and other features on the clones are even implemented, cap sizes and quality are also likely different.

Yes, it's more money, but I think you're kidding yourself if you believe the average operational life span of a clone will equal the average operational lifespan of an OEM.

Each to his own, and I don't fault anyone for buying a clone, but I also don't think the quality and/or quality control is anywhere near the OEM. I'm willing to pay extra for that.

Oh, and BTW, please don't take my response as emotional or anything like that. They're just amps and I am not insulted or feel like I'm somehow superior to a clone owner because I have an OEM. It really is just the facts I've laid out above that led me to buy the OEM. My "crap" comment was really more to be humorous than anything else.smile.gif
Edited by Gooddoc - 10/14/13 at 12:24pm
post #11436 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Kinda laughed when I read this.

Is it fact or opinion?

Or do you consider it a fact where others consider it an opinion?

You know I'm just giving you a hard time man.
biggrin.gif

Yes, a bit of a contradiction. But let me clarify what I mean by that: It's a fact, but don't try to get me to argue with you about it because i won't bite. If you don't already know that it's a fact then I could care less to convince you and just leave it at "it's my opinion" biggrin.gif

Edit: On a more serious note though (since this is forever on here smile.gif), the real deal is that although I think it's a fact, I realize I have a limited knowledge base and it is possible I could be wrong about most everything and anything that I state as fact.
Edited by Gooddoc - 10/14/13 at 1:14pm
post #11437 of 18704
On the dome vs cd comparison I can tell that coming from Dynaudio's Esotar2 which is considered a very high end tweeter, at least by Dynaudio wink.gif , the 212's cd is at least on par.
Both air and sweetness are there and it even has more resolution and "bite" at lower volumes , where I found the Dyns to become less informative.
( my room is well treated so I think I can give a reasonably accurate assessment in this regard)
By my standards that is excellent performance.
post #11438 of 18704
K. Cool.
post #11439 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Sorry but that is a lame question. rolleyes.gif

The short answer is that CD's do not have the "best SQ out there". The one used in the Noesis 212 has very low distortion and provides a level of detail that rivals the best dome (and perhaps ribbon) tweeters. The nice thing about these CD's is that you get that SQ at virtually all SPL levels so when watching a Concert DVD or movie @ reference level, you don't have to worry about having your dome tweeters ending up in your lap ...

Good answer and I agree. Most people would pick a soft dome tweeter over a compression driver in a listening test, as long as the speakers were tested within their limits. I am referring to compression drivers in general. Some compression drivers would fair better than others. The problem is most speakers that use soft dome tweeters, reach their limits way to early for those that like higher SPL levels or have longer listening distances.
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post #11440 of 18704
That all makes sense. wink.gif I never plan on having a big room so I guess either design could work. I don't enjoy ear bleeding levels but I know the Noesis is good for more than just that smile.gif
post #11441 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Sorry but that is a lame question. rolleyes.gif

The short answer is that CD's do not have the "best SQ out there". The one used in the Noesis 212 has very low distortion and provides a level of detail that rivals the best dome (and perhaps ribbon) tweeters. The nice thing about these CD's is that you get that SQ at virtually all SPL levels so when watching a Concert DVD or movie @ reference level, you don't have to worry about having your dome tweeters ending up in your lap ...

Good answer and I agree. Most people would pick a soft dome tweeter over a compression driver in a listening test, as long as the speakers were tested within their limits. I am referring to compression drivers in general. Some compression drivers would fair better than others. The problem is most speakers that use soft dome tweeters, reach their limits way to early for those that like higher SPL levels or have longer listening distances.


Not sure that's quite so clear with the 212HT in the mix. check out this link.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/871474/ia-meet/3450#post_22789054

dlbeck held a blind meet for his salk ht2-tl vs the jtr 212ht. The results for music were close enough to call it a tie, with the jtr having a slight edge with 6 out of 11 preferring the jtr. That's a compression driver against a ribbon tweeter at low volume levels. The fact that it was so close indicates many blind enthusiasts were split. They definitely sounded different - which you liked better was/is very subjective. Both are excellent speakers.

At higher level used for movie comparison in the blind test - 7 out of 9 compared the JTR. That's where the quality horn/compression driver starts separating itself from the pack for sure!
post #11442 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Doesnt look like youll be getting the hdmi 2.0 on the xmc-1. It doesn't appear the standard is set yet. Nor does it look like this is possible to upgrade via firmware.
http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/32874/xmc-1-hdmi-2?page=1&scrollTo=564034

HDMI 2.0 standard is set, but I doubt that you are going to get a pre-pro with HDMI 2.0. The new Sony VW600ES, VW1100ES and the soon to be updated VW1000ES will all be HDMI 2.0. All three will be available next month.
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post #11443 of 18704
In-room, gated Noesis 212HT measurement at various resolutions. All at same SPL, just offset curves



I think I got more room in there than I should have by gating a little too late. I think I was at 7 or 8 mSec
post #11444 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Not sure that's quite so clear with the 212HT in the mix. check out this link.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/871474/ia-meet/3450#post_22789054

dlbeck held a blind meet for his salk ht2-tl vs the jtr 212ht. The results for music were close enough to call it a tie, with the jtr having a slight edge with 6 out of 11 preferring the jtr. That's a compression driver against a ribbon tweeter at low volume levels. The fact that it was so close indicates many blind enthusiasts were split. They definitely sounded different - which you liked better was/is very subjective. Both are excellent speakers.

At higher level used for movie comparison in the blind test - 7 out of 9 compared the JTR. That's where the quality horn/compression driver starts separating itself from the pack for sure!

One informal test does not the truth reveal (BTW, I enjoyed reading about the meet and the opinions of the participants wink.gif ). The point is this is totally subjective with the room, LP, material being played and the SPL levels influencing opinions more that the specific speakers involved (IMHO). This assumes all speakers are well built/engineered. Did I say in my opinion? tongue.gif

Of course there are always those "trained listeners" with golden ears that render my point moot and, there is a certain Nuance to the process I find particularly annoying ... tongue.gifwink.gif
Edited by RMK! - 10/14/13 at 3:27pm
post #11445 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

In-room, gated Noesis 212HT measurement at various resolutions. All at same SPL, just offset curves



I think I got more room in there than I should have by gating a little too late. I think I was at 7 or 8 mSec

Looks good but would be more interesting if I could read the scale. Please save using higher rez. smile.gif
post #11446 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post



Regarding resolution, I'm not sure what "no smoothing" means in that utility. Every "look" has to has some level of resolution defined. That said, that's what's so interesting about those graphs. The part below the crossover looks like high resolution, but the part above does not.

I use the Omnimic, and the options for smoothing are:

None
1/96th
1/48th
1/24th
1/12th
1/6th
1/3rd
Octave

I used "none" for the graphs I posted yesterday.


Here is one with the mic roughly 1 meter away from my right main speaker using 1/12th smoothing:











The right speaker, as you can see below, is 4 feet from the front wall and 1.5 feet from the side wall so I bet it would be a more accurate measurement if I ever get around to moving the speaker to the middle of the room, hard to get motivated to do that though. smile.gif




post #11447 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I hope I didn't come across as criticizing.

No, not at all. smile.gif
post #11448 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

One informal test does not the truth reveal (BTW, I enjoyed reading about the meet and the opinions of the participants wink.gif ). The point is this is totally subjective with the room, LP, material being played and the SPL levels influencing opinions more that the specific speakers involved (IMHO). This assumes all speakers are well built/engineered. Did I say in my opinion? tongue.gif

Of course there are always those "trained listeners" with golden ears that render my point moot and, there is a certain Nuance to the process I find particularly annoying ... tongue.gifwink.gif

You forgot to say that is was a fact before saying it was your opinion.

biggrin.gif
post #11449 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

You forgot to say that is was a fact before saying it was your opinion.

biggrin.gif

It was implied...
post #11450 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Keep in mind when HyperM3 said he was a little disappointed with the 228HT's for music he wasn't running his Subm HP sub with them at that time, so even if he was using the 212HT's I'm sure he would of been a little disappointed. The 212HT's still wouldn't sound awesome run full range without a sub. I'm sure they'd still sound good but definitely sound like they were lacking in the low end.

He did say he had the SubM.

I wonder if the HSU's are better sounding than the SubM for music. I am talking about the HSU ULS 15s. They are definitely the best sounding subs i have ever owned, although they can't keep up with the 212s for movies, with a 10db up on the receiver and 10db down for the noesis, they match perfect for music. With my 212s and ULS combo, I think it's hard to beat, even with $100K speakers. I have had a chance to audition a RM750K (translated to USD$250K) speaker system and I still preferred my Noesis / ULS combo.

Again, I must say this again, the HSU's are great for music, but they don't deliver enough punch for movies. Still pretty darn good, just not enough volumes. I guess no subs can considering my expectations for subs must rival what I hear from the Imax and thus maybe multiples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

So you basically confirmed to me what I thought about my 228HT's the first time I hooked mine up and then had a good 20hrs on them. The sound of them definitely changed and started to sound fuller. I know a few other members have said they don't believe in speaker "break in" and honestly I never really did either, but after some mileage on my I guess the 8" woofers loosened up a little because they really did sound a lot different to me.

And it wasn't me getting use to the sound, because I personally don't think getting use to the sound of a CD speaker begins to sound fuller from just getting use to the sound.

I agree with you a 110%, I have now compared these speakers with some pretty high end brands. Some costs about 2.5x the price of mine and I still prefer my 228HT's for movie use.

This is true even for the 212s. After the first few weeks, my 212s just got so much better and smoother...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

How would you experienced ones respond to this question. It came up on another forum and certainly I know you all are believers in JTR's so I know your answer may be biased and that's certainly ok. So in talking about high quality speakers on another thread in witch Triad speakers are popular, one guy mentioned why do you think all HiFi don't have compression drivers/horn combo if it's the best SQ out there. Of course Triad uses soft dome tweeters in which he believed is the best. Certainly I'm not making a case for either, just looking for friendly responses since I know many of you have A LOT of knowledge and experience with lots of speakers. It came up when I mentioned what I am doing with my system, my recent additions and then my future plans for 212 Noesis LPs.

I have listened to tons of domes vs cds, and with the exception of the Noesis' CD, almost every dome sounds better than any other CDs in general.

So, i guess for MOST commercial speakers that have to retail for a certain price range, such an expensive CD like the one used in the Noesis is just not feasible.

I guess it's down to price. Most commercial speakers for the home are pretty cheap (compared to the $5000/pair of noesis plus you'll have to add a $2000 sub).

Let's do some basic calculations:

Most commercial home speakers retail for less than $3000/pair (anything more and we're looking at very niche market). And they have to be full range. Meaning, if you build a full range speaker (requiring that it goes down to 30-40hz at least), this would automatically suck out all the juice from your 'home receivers', which means

a) They can't play at reference ANYWAYS...
b) Which means a dome tweeter works just fine at those levels.
c) Domes that are relatively cheap still sounds pretty good.

So, no point putting in a $700 dollar CD since it'll not give you much advantage at those lower volumes (volumes / efficiency limited by the full range they had to build their speakers on)

Now, a bit to the commercial pricing. For a $2000 pair of speaker, they have to build a nice wooden cabinet, shipping, middle men, etc, which puts the cost of the entire thing at maybe $200-$400 max. With that amount of money, you'll need several drivers, crossovers, cabinets, etc. How much do you think each of those would cost? They can probably pay for a $30-$50 tweeter at best. Heard any CD that sounds great at that price range?

BTW: I might be wrong, so if anyone knows of cheap CDs that sounds as good as the one in the Noesis, please let me know. I might be interested in building some speakers with them for my other rooms and families...

ps: Before you say, why don't the MORE expensive Hi-Fi speakers use CDs, they still have the limitation of 'volume' if they want to build it full range passive. Plus, a Dome / Ribbon 'looks' cooler on their very expensive cabinets... Until someone comes up with a Swarovski Crystal Horn, it's not going anywhere near Hi-Fi speakers... If you're gonna sell snake oil at $50K to people with money to spare, you better make it look 'expensive'... and Horns just look 'cheap'... biggrin.gif
Edited by coolgeek - 10/14/13 at 7:42pm
post #11451 of 18704
Good review! Basically you have said in a nutshell the Noesis are something special. That is the perspective I hold simply by information and personal reviews of the Noesis. If one took the Noesis price and went to Triad, you would get the gold model. Great speaker I'm sure. But 91db sensitivity, 200 watts max at 4 ohms. It's pretty cool though for someone to review a quarter million set of speakers and still prefer The Noesis. smile.gif
post #11452 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I used "none" for the graphs I posted yesterday.


Here is one with the mic roughly 1 meter away from my right main speaker using 1/12th smoothing:



The right speaker, as you can see below, is 4 feet from the front wall and 1.5 feet from the side wall so I bet it would be a more accurate measurement if I ever get around to moving the speaker to the middle of the room, hard to get motivated to do that though. smile.gif



Pardon my language but...damn, Carp, that's impressive! Now, you have my attention on the 212. If you go back and measure the same speaker at the MPL, it will not look like this. Try your measurement at the same resolution at the MPL. I'd like to see that to compare. PM headed your way.
post #11453 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Here is one with the mic roughly 1 meter away from my right main speaker using 1/12th smoothing:


Carp, looks phenomenal!

I thought you fixed the db increment issue? 5db vs 10db.

Regardless of scale, that response is an awesome testament to Jeff's work. You still cross at 80, correct?
post #11454 of 18704
you guys....

"Most people would pick a soft dome tweeter over a compression driver in a listening test..."

that is because they are listening to the wrong implementations. :-)~

this is what happens when audiophiles with such biases runs into a good implementation:

"Impressions? Pretty simple. These are the best speakers I've heard in 30 years as an ardent audiophile in a real world setting at a real world price. Full stop." - phile 1

"There was no real part of the frequency response that was drawing attention, although I was continuously amazed by how clean the bass was and how delineated it was. Treble was just there, never drawing attention to itself but never lacking either." -phile 2

"I am currently a Linkwitz Orion++ owner...The Summa‟s are the best overall system that I have heard. The first thing that jumped out to me was the high end. It was different, the likes of which I had never heard before. There was more air, detail and naturalness than I had ever heard before." - phile 3

http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/recommendations.pdf

"I have listened to tons of domes vs cds, and with the exception of the Noesis' CD, almost every dome sounds better than any other CDs in general."

that is because you are listening to the wrong implementations too. :-)~

most older horns/compression driver designs relied on diffraction horns and high crossover points. that is old technology to increase power handling and directivity for some pro settings. it has no place in a home.

"Carp, looks phenomenal!"

yes.

most of the junk in your listening position is created by reflections 1/4 wavelength to boundaries.

they can be almost completely eliminated by moving the speakers into the corners and ideally having them in a baffle wall.

klipsch talked about this 40 years ago and somehow everybody seems to have forgotten it.

if you do it right:



you get this (with almost no eq):



http://www.cowanaudio.com/finale.html

cheers.

edit/add: he almost got the bass right too, but I think it was a little by accident. the location of the woofers are almost at 1/4 distances from the ceiling/floor/walls. that kills off side-to-side and ceiling-to-floor modes and leaves only the rear wall to deal with. that is in part why his bass response is so good without beating it to death with eq.
Edited by LTD02 - 10/15/13 at 3:37am
post #11455 of 18704
just a useful bit from klipsch back in...1975! eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

post #11456 of 18704
but, but, but, i don't have a corner on the left side. so...build one! eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

post #11457 of 18704
klipsch had a way of putting things directly. anyway, here is another bit that jtr should put in their marketing materials. :-)~

post #11458 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

klipsch had a way of putting things directly. anyway, here is another bit that jtr should put in their marketing materials. :-)~


Thank you for all your posts over the last few days. They are very educational and insightful and very much appreciatted.
post #11459 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Pardon my language but...damn, Carp, that's impressive! Now, you have my attention on the 212. If you go back and measure the same speaker at the MPL, it will not look like this. Try your measurement at the same resolution at the MPL. I'd like to see that to compare. PM headed your way.


Thanks, I got your PM thanks for all the info, I'll get back to you when I have time probably this evening. smile.gif
post #11460 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Carp, looks phenomenal!

I thought you fixed the db increment issue? 5db vs 10db.

Regardless of scale, that response is an awesome testament to Jeff's work. You still cross at 80, correct?


Thanks Austin. Yeah I don't get it. It was doing 10db's for a long time and randomly switched to 5db's and now it's back to 10. When I take the measurements they are all in 5 db incremements, it's only when I use the "snapshot" feature so I can post the graph here that it switches to 10.
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