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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 387

post #11581 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

GOT THE ORBIT SHIFTER HOOKED UP!!!

Books ARE flying... haha.. well, maybe not... but one of my bottles on a shelve did shake loose and fell to the ground.

OK, initial assessment.

IT HAS TONS OF OUTPUT... way more than BOTH my HSU's combined. It might actually equate to 8 HSUs ULS 15s in terms of output... (if i had to make a guess).

But a caveat. I prefer using my 2 HSU's for music vs the OS... The sealed subs are cleaner and seems to blend nicely with the sealed Noesis.

I don't know yet why... there are still too many variables to call this.

1) the SUB placement. The OS is now beside my bed and I don't like it there.. crossed at 80hz (which is the lowest my receiver can do and the OS doens't come with it's own Low Pass Knob like the HSUs where I can adjust the frequency range.), I can totally locate all the sounds and it's bugging me. I need to move it to the front but there's limited placement in my current room. Not sure how to fit it there...

2) I'll have to get my processor working (currently either my cables are not done correctly or the processor i bought has problems, signals not getting thru), and then cross the sub at maybe 60hz.. not 80hz...

3) What gain do you guys use for your Orbit Shifter? It was really confusing. The higher the number, the lower the gain.. it's complete opposite from my HSUs... It took me a while to realize that. When set at 1db, it's super loud... is this normal or is there a design flaw in the speakerpower amp??? Currently I have set it at 12, which totally overwhelms the Noesis...

Ok, that's it for now.. i think i might be deaf... i can literally feel the air compress in my room.. might not be too good for my inner ear... without an SPL meter, i might actually be doing some permanent damage...

but.. my bed is vibrating like i actually inserted a coin in...

Next to your bed ... confused.gif

Like any sub the OS is position dependent. With an 80Hz crossover and nearfiled placement localization is not surprising. When they are properly placed and EQ'd they are every bit as "clean"as the best sealed subs. When DoubleWing visited my HT to hear the Noesis he left the demo in love (not too strong a word) with the OS and that is after demoing many high end sub and speaker combos. Due to size limitations in his beautiful Erskine designed HT, he ended up buying the Cap S2 but he openly covets the OS and describes it as "the best subwoofer he has ever heard". I concur ...cool.gif
post #11582 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Next to your bed ... confused.gif

Like any sub the OS is position dependent. With an 80Hz crossover and nearfiled placement localization is not surprising. When they are properly placed and EQ'd they are every bit as "clean"as the best sealed subs. When DoubleWing visited my HT to hear the Noesis he left the demo in love (not too strong a word) with the OS and that is after demoing many high end sub and speaker combos. Due to size limitations in his beautiful Erskine designed HT, he ended up buying the Cap S2 but he openly covets the OS and describes it as "the best subwoofer he has ever heard". I concur ...cool.gif

You're most likely right Rob...

Right now, the only corner I have left in my room is beside my bed. And localization is NOT fun... puts everything off.. .

But I am just listening to some demos now and I can say this for 100% sure.. nothing i have encountered have that much output... my room is filled with dust now.. all from the ceiling i think... basically my ceiling is breaking apart.. hahah..

--

However, I think a lot of work needs to be done to tame it... placement, eq, etc, etc.. .

Right now, I think these things are happening:

1. Nearfield (not great for me due to localization especially crossed at 80hz, which is the only option i currently have)
2. In order to get the 'lower' octave up to speed, ie, loud enough to rumble, i think those hz at 50-80hz are overwhelming the Noesis and thus, blurring the sound... I think the OS is best used at below 60hz....

Now, back to my HSUs..

The HSU's do nothing for low bass.. basically most of the demo scenes with very low bass come off a bit 'thin'... but for music, it was just perfect. Somehow it blends so well with the Noesis, I can't even describe it... Everyone who has listened to music or live concerts on my Noesis/HSU combination have totally mesmerized with the sound... I have a feeling that with my HSU, the curve could be straight all the way down to 30hz or so.. and that's why it's so clean and nice... plus, it's a sealed sub, so there are virtually zero 'air sound'... it's all extremely tight...

Now, need to get more equipment in so that i can play with it more... for now, that's all i can do...

I must say I am totally happy with the OS as with the Noesis.. there are no comparisons...

btw: Someone asked me if i still need an MBM which I intend to build after hearing the OS, and my answer.. YES!!! MBMs are totally different beasts compared to the Orbit Shifter.. i see them as complementary... the OS does nothing above 60hz... it's more of an Earthquake, bone shaking, room rattling effect. I was just back from listening to a pair of 18s mbms earlier in the everning, and they are 'slap, punch in your chest feeling'.. very tight, quick, and slappy feeling... so, they both go hand in hand... Dr. HSU have mentioned something to this effect.. drivers made for low bass can't do well for Mid Bass and vice versa and now i know why...

Basically in a word:

OS = BOOM, MBM = BANG!

or,

OS = Sickening, MBM = Painful

The combination = Deadly!!!

Now, i feel i no longer need any more subs for the lower bass... The OS is more than enough.. it's already deafening and making me sick and now i have a headache...
post #11583 of 18374
When you have the OS set up properly the HSU sub will become a Nice Memory. wink.gif
post #11584 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

BTW: what 'gain' level do you guys set for your OS when used with a regular home receiver? I have currently set it at 12 (or is it -12db).


Cool, with my dual OSs and 8801, the gain knobs on my OSs are both just 2-3 clicks(indents) from 0. Anything higher and it was too loud for Audyssey to calibrate.
post #11585 of 18374
My mom isn't happy either because i have made a mess of my room... too dusty...
post #11586 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

You're most likely right Rob...

Right now, the only corner I have left in my room is beside my bed. And localization is NOT fun... puts everything off.. .

But I am just listening to some demos now and I can say this for 100% sure.. nothing i have encountered have that much output... my room is filled with dust now.. all from the ceiling i think... basically my ceiling is breaking apart.. hahah..

--

However, I think a lot of work needs to be done to tame it... placement, eq, etc, etc.. .

Right now, I think these things are happening:

1. Nearfield (not great for me due to localization especially crossed at 80hz, which is the only option i currently have)
2. In order to get the 'lower' octave up to speed, ie, loud enough to rumble, i think those hz at 50-80hz are overwhelming the Noesis and thus, blurring the sound... I think the OS is best used at below 60hz....

Now, back to my HSUs..

The HSU's do nothing for low bass.. basically most of the demo scenes with very low bass come off a bit 'thin'... but for music, it was just perfect. Somehow it blends so well with the Noesis, I can't even describe it... Everyone who has listened to music or live concerts on my Noesis/HSU combination have totally mesmerized with the sound... I have a feeling that with my HSU, the curve could be straight all the way down to 30hz or so.. and that's why it's so clean and nice... plus, it's a sealed sub, so there are virtually zero 'air sound'... it's all extremely tight...

Now, need to get more equipment in so that i can play with it more... for now, that's all i can do...

I must say I am totally happy with the OS as with the Noesis.. there are no comparisons...

btw: Someone asked me if i still need an MBM which I intend to build after hearing the OS, and my answer.. YES!!! MBMs are totally different beasts compared to the Orbit Shifter.. i see them as complementary... the OS does nothing above 60hz... it's more of an Earthquake, bone shaking, room rattling effect. I was just back from listening to a pair of 18s mbms earlier in the everning, and they are 'slap, punch in your chest feeling'.. very tight, quick, and slappy feeling... so, they both go hand in hand... Dr. HSU have mentioned something to this effect.. drivers made for low bass can't do well for Mid Bass and vice versa and now i know why...

Basically in a word:

OS = BOOM, MBM = BANG!

or,

OS = Sickening, MBM = Painful

The combination = Deadly!!!

Now, i feel i no longer need any more subs for the lower bass... The OS is more than enough.. it's already deafening and making me sick and now i have a headache...

AFAIR, you are building a new home with a dedicated HT room, right? I retract my previous statement that you should hurry up and get the OS setup. It is a mega sub and needs some space to breathe or you won't be able to ... Putting a sub like that in a small room is a serious waste and completely unnecessary (unless you enjoy feeling nauseous tongue.gif) . Oh and BTW, it sounds great with an 80Hz Xover when setup correctly wink.gif. Put it back in storage till your house is finished. smile.gif
post #11587 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

AFAIR, you are building a new home with a dedicated HT room, right? I retract my previous statement that you should hurry up and get the OS setup. It is a mega sub and needs some space to breathe or you won't be able to ... Putting a sub like that in a small room is a serious waste and completely unnecessary (unless you enjoy feeling nauseous tongue.gif) . Oh and BTW, it sounds great with an 80Hz Xover when setup correctly wink.gif. Put it back in storage till your house is finished. smile.gif

Agree with Rob. In a small room, especially if it's square-ish, an OS will pound you into submission but it'll most likely be a muddy mess of 1 note bass. Placed properly and calibrated or EQ'd in a good room and it is ALL things.......a pounder, very musical, AND articulate.
post #11588 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

When you have the OS set up properly the HSU sub will become a Nice Memory. wink.gif

Haha... let's see..

Have you had a chance to listen to dual HSU ULS 15s coupled with the Noesis for music? It's heavenly... Like I said, they sound better than a RM 750,000 (USD 250,000) speaker system i have had a chance to listen to recently at an AV show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinH View Post

Cool, with my dual OSs and 8801, the gain knobs on my OSs are both just 2-3 clicks(indents) from 0. Anything higher and it was too loud for Audyssey to calibrate.

I have mine at 4 clicks... but then I only have the One OS compared to your 2...

But HOLY CRAP, 2 OS??? hmm.. do you ever even use the potential???

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

AFAIR, you are building a new home with a dedicated HT room, right? I retract my previous statement that you should hurry up and get the OS setup. It is a mega sub and needs some space to breathe or you won't be able to ... Putting a sub like that in a small room is a serious waste and completely unnecessary (unless you enjoy feeling nauseous tongue.gif) . Oh and BTW, it sounds great with an 80Hz Xover when setup correctly wink.gif. Put it back in storage till your house is finished. smile.gif

Make up your mind Rob... first you berate me for being a procrastinator, now you want me to pack it all back up..... wink.gif

BTW: My room isn't that small either.. it's 17 feet by 18 feet.

But still the OS overwhelms it... I do feel sick..
post #11589 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Haha... let's see..

Have you had a chance to listen to dual HSU ULS 15s coupled with the Noesis for music? It's heavenly... Like I said, they sound better than a RM 750,000 (USD 250,000) speaker system i have had a chance to listen to recently at an AV show.
I have mine at 4 clicks... but then I only have the One OS compared to your 2...

But HOLY CRAP, 2 OS??? hmm.. do you ever even use the potential???
Make up your mind Rob... first you berate me for being a procrastinator, now you want me to pack it all back up..... wink.gif

BTW: My room isn't that small either.. it's 17 feet by 18 feet.

But still the OS overwhelms it... I do feel sick..


My room is treated and about 14x17x8. Nowhere near their top potential or limit, but listening to movies at or near reference is a slice of heaven. And since your room is almost square, w/o EQ and lots of placement trial and error, it'll be a chore to get it sounding good.......but when you get it done right in the new room....you'll see what we mean wink.gif
Edited by KevinH - 10/17/13 at 8:13am
post #11590 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Haha... let's see..

Have you had a chance to listen to dual HSU ULS 15s coupled with the Noesis for music? It's heavenly... Like I said, they sound better than a RM 750,000 (USD 250,000) speaker system i have had a chance to listen to recently at an AV show.
I have mine at 4 clicks... but then I only have the One OS compared to your 2...

But HOLY CRAP, 2 OS??? hmm.. do you ever even use the potential???
Make up your mind Rob... first you berate me for being a procrastinator, now you want me to pack it all back up..... wink.gif

BTW: My room isn't that small either.. it's 17 feet by 18 feet.

But still the OS overwhelms it... I do feel sick..

You're right in that the room is average size smile.gif

It is only overwhelming due to placement and a need for proper EQ. My OS's are two clicks up from null. To get to 75db with my SSP's setup test tones I had to place 15db attenuators on them and the levels are still -5db. If you are limited to the current placement, I'd leave the OS off for music and let them play with movies. Will be a fun e-ticket ride ... smile.gif
post #11591 of 18374
These are things that have fallen off their shelves
post #11592 of 18374
This is a pic of the top of my OS.. notice the dust and particles on top? It was brand new just a few moments ago.. now, it's filled with dust (shaken loose from my ceiling/bookshelves, etc).. my entire room is covered with the stuff...



This is where my OS is.. at the corner of my room, by the bed.. I'll try to move it to the front stage when i can get some ppl to help me later.. might mean, i can't get into my clothes closet anymore.. but heck.. all for the science of discovering the potential of the Orbit Shifter...

Notice the painting? I did that.. water color.. hehehe..



Here are some items that have fallen off their shelves... no books yet, Rob.. tongue.gif



BTW: Someone suggested I set the crossover at 120 hz and i did just that from my receiver.. and it works better..... I am loving it.. for movies!!! it's crazy!!!

Why haven't more ppl discover this beast is beyond me... this week, another AVS forum member is coming to give it a listen...
post #11593 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

You're right in that the room is average size smile.gif

It is only overwhelming due to placement and a need for proper EQ. My OS's are two clicks up from null. To get to 75db with my SSP's setup test tones I had to place 15db attenuators on them and the levels are still -5db. If you are limited to the current placement, I'd leave the OS off for music and let them play with movies. Will be a fun e-ticket ride ... smile.gif

I am going thru all the demo scenes i have downloaded now.. fun ride indeed.. if i still have an inner ear by the time i am finished, i'll count my lucky stars..

I have temporarily solved the 'nearfield localization problem'.. but putting a pillow on the side of my head that faces the OS...
post #11594 of 18374
Its common knowledge that the best place for a sub is under the bed...next to the bed..sheesh...rookie move :-)
post #11595 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Its common knowledge that the best place for a sub is under the bed...next to the bed..sheesh...rookie move :-)

Rookie move by Jeff that is... he should have one 8 inch thick Orbit Shifter that can be placed under the bed.. or call it BS for Bed Shaker...

ps: I actually used the original Cambridge Soundworks' Ensemble IV's dual woofers under my bed before.. it was such a joy... they were both 8 inch sealed subs... really great sounding too.. I miss my Cambridge Soundworks...
post #11596 of 18374
Coolgeek, the solution to the problem is to get rid of the bed or the sub. I know you will make the mature, rational decision.

Besides, sleeping on the floor is not so bad....
post #11597 of 18374
Received my speakers, 2 Noesis 212HT, 2 Orbit Shifters, and 2 Single 8LP's. Running my set up now. I'll try to get some thoughts and pictures up soon. When they delivered them the pallet was so big it wouldn't fit in the garage. Pretty funny
post #11598 of 18374
@fatsow Congrats! Dont be disappointed when you listen to them. One day you'll be able to save enough money to buy some real speakers...smile.gif
post #11599 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

i see them as complementary... the OS does nothing above 60hz... it's more of an Earthquake, bone shaking, room rattling effect. ..

This statement shows that you have some serious setup issues. The shifter will pound you to death up to 200 Hz if you want and it does not reach that low. Sounds to me like you have a serious room mode at 50Hz or so which makes it overwhelming if turned up. My room has a 20dB peak at 30 Hz (when it's in the best position for smooth response and convenience) and until I kill it with my miniDSP the shifter sounds boomy and terrible. Once flattened out I can turn it way up and it sounds amazing. It does die off at 20 Hz or so though.
post #11600 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

My mom isn't happy either because i have made a mess of my room... too dusty...

OS as a bedside table, that's a new one.
post #11601 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Coolgeek, the solution to the problem is to get rid of the bed or the sub. I know you will make the mature, rational decision.

Besides, sleeping on the floor is not so bad....

What bed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatsow View Post

Received my speakers, 2 Noesis 212HT, 2 Orbit Shifters, and 2 Single 8LP's. Running my set up now. I'll try to get some thoughts and pictures up soon. When they delivered them the pallet was so big it wouldn't fit in the garage. Pretty funny

Congrats Fatsow... you'll be forever smiling from the time you turn it on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by subyguy View Post

This statement shows that you have some serious setup issues. The shifter will pound you to death up to 200 Hz if you want and it does not reach that low. Sounds to me like you have a serious room mode at 50Hz or so which makes it overwhelming if turned up. My room has a 20dB peak at 30 Hz (when it's in the best position for smooth response and convenience) and until I kill it with my miniDSP the shifter sounds boomy and terrible. Once flattened out I can turn it way up and it sounds amazing. It does die off at 20 Hz or so though.

You know what?? I think you're absolutely right. I have a serious headache now..

I have demoed all my movie snippets now and the whole time, there's this low rumble going on... i can't turn it up further or risk 'dying'...

So, you can actually get rid of room modes using minidsp? I have a processor... once i got it figured out, i might just do that.. don't have any measuring equipment yet though...

Don't you need bass traps for room modes? is it as simple as minidsp? Can i use any type of processor? Like the ashley? It has eq in it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

OS as a bedside table, that's a new one.

ho ho... biggrin.gif
post #11602 of 18374
Okay... tomorrow got to make an appointment with the E.N.T... eek.gif
post #11603 of 18374
Yes, treatments and proper positioning are the first line. Then with proper measuring equipment and a dsp you cut areas that are too peaky and boost areas that are low...only after taking care of treatment and positioning. You can also fine tune delay and phase in order to smooth the crossover regions before doing major eq work. It does sound like you have something funky going on though. Just the fact that you feel the sealed subs are cleaner indicates an issue. With something as powerful as the OS I don't think there are many cases where you can drop it in a room, turn it on and call it good.
post #11604 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by subyguy View Post

Yes, treatments and proper positioning are the first line. Then with proper measuring equipment and a dsp you cut areas that are too peaky and boost areas that are low...only after taking care of treatment and positioning. You can also fine tune delay and phase in order to smooth the crossover regions before doing major eq work. It does sound like you have something funky going on though. Just the fact that you feel the sealed subs are cleaner indicates an issue. With something as powerful as the OS I don't think there are many cases where you can drop it in a room, turn it on and call it good.

Looks like I am just a little boy with his BIG toys and don't know how to properly play with them...

It's frustrating not knowing any of these things.. you just know something's not right, but no way to fix it... and there aren't many 'acoustic' doctors in my country either... mad.gif
post #11605 of 18374
Here is one of the early graphs of my system before it was fully set up. Here I have the sealed working with the OS well but haven't cut the 30Hz peak yet. You can't imagine how boomy and overbearing this sounds because of that peak. I can't remember but I believe in this graph I had already cut it down some. I ended up with two cuts centred at 30 and 32 Hz each with -15db cut. Again, this is entirely room dependent and with better positioning I likely could have gotten rid of some of it but this was a compromise.

post #11606 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by subyguy View Post

Here is one of the early graphs of my system before it was fully set up. Here I have the sealed working with the OS well but haven't cut the 30Hz peak yet. You can't imagine how boomy and overbearing this sounds because of that peak. I can't remember but I believe in this graph I had already cut it down some. I ended up with two cuts centred at 30 and 32 Hz each with -15db cut. Again, this is entirely room dependent and with better positioning I likely could have gotten rid of some of it but this was a compromise.


What sort of equipment did you use to get all these graphs?
post #11607 of 18374


Not to bad! I have the subs turned up a little. This is 1/12th smoothing.
post #11608 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by subyguy View Post

Yes, treatments and proper positioning are the first line. Then with proper measuring equipment and a dsp you cut areas that are too peaky and boost areas that are low...only after taking care of treatment and positioning. You can also fine tune delay and phase in order to smooth the crossover regions before doing major eq work. It does sound like you have something funky going on though. Just the fact that you feel the sealed subs are cleaner indicates an issue. With something as powerful as the OS I don't think there are many cases where you can drop it in a room, turn it on and call it good.

I agree completely but ... when Jeff delivered the OS's (they were serial numbers 1&2 tongue.gif) we plopped them in my preferred location in the front of the room under the AT screen and with the Triple 12's (now Noesis) sitting on top.

Here is a photo:



And this was the raw response at the main LP:

Not too bad for just dropping them into the room ... smile.gif

That said, the dogged pursuit of perfection has forced me to order stands for the Noesis and I'll be moving the mains outboard and slightly forward of the AT screen. One of the OS's will act as the center channel stand and the other will be moved to the best location in the room (side or back wall). Then, with miniDSP and XT32 I will try and make it as good as possible.

With some luck, I'll be back to where I am right now ... tongue.gif
Edited by RMK! - 10/17/13 at 11:13am
post #11609 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatsow View Post



Not to bad! I have the subs turned up a little. This is 1/12th smoothing.

Is that with the Noesis?

Where did you cross the OS at?
post #11610 of 18374
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatsow View Post



Not to bad! I have the subs turned up a little. This is 1/12th smoothing.

"Not to bad" eek.gif That is friggin awesome as the initial setup. Looks like a good room and placement. cool.gif
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