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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 392

post #11731 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Calibrated the system today with the help of my brother-in-law. Well, bass primarily and just some optimization of LR 212's positioning



That graph is 1/24 resolution with just the 2 S2's. I guess that will just have to do...biggrin.gif



You wouldn't know by looking and it's hard to tell from the pic anyway, but I pulled the LR away from the backwall and a little farther out from the sidewall trying to get rid of a dip around 300 Hz that still persists but not much I can do about it due to limited options for positioning of my mains. The only way I can get rid of it is to pull my LR in next to my screen and put the equipment rack and sub in the corner. Not sure I want to do that. I'm going to maybe do an Audyssey run at some point just to see what it does with it.





Got the LG 10000Q set up. All I can say is I have no doubt it is as clean as you'll ever hear the 212's at any volume that is humanly tolerable. Seriously. I'm not going to compare this amp to that amp or wax poetic about how this may, or may not, sound the same/better/worse than my Denon 4311 or the Sunfire. All I will say is that the LG walks right up behind the 212's, grabs them by the 'nads and takes charge. 'Nuff said.
Just got done with a LOT of music and watched The Matrix to cap off the day. We watched at +4.5 over reference and it was so clean and effortless that it's ridiculous. I started out at reference and it sounded like it was at about -5, so I corrected it. And man, awesome is the only way to describe the experience. Imax, shmimax. I have never heard a better reproduction of a soundtrack in my life. I have no room treatments.

As to the issue of overpowering the room, I'm not sure what that means. But if it's too loud to tolerate, then every amp that I have had powering the 212's could do that. The difference is in the sense of effortlessness between them. All I can say is that reference is perceptually less loud with this amp than the others. That was consistent through several demo scenes. Placebo effect? Can't say for sure, but what I do know for sure is that I was playing everything louder because I could and it was just so clean it was hard not to keep cranking a little more. And that is an objective observation based on the dial.
now I really want one. If it sounds less loud than the others at reference that is a good sign. After cranking it for a while did the fans just stay on all the time? how warm did it get? How was the noise floor at you final input sensitivity position? and what position did you land on? Sorry for all the questions but thanks for the posts Goddoc.
post #11732 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Calibrated the system today with the help of my brother-in-law. Well, bass primarily and just some optimization of LR 212's positioning



That graph is 1/24 resolution with just the 2 S2's. I guess that will just have to do...biggrin.gif



You wouldn't know by looking and it's hard to tell from the pic anyway, but I pulled the LR away from the backwall and a little farther out from the sidewall trying to get rid of a dip around 300 Hz that still persists but not much I can do about it due to limited options for positioning of my mains. The only way I can get rid of it is to pull my LR in next to my screen and put the equipment rack and sub in the corner. Not sure I want to do that. I'm going to maybe do an Audyssey run at some point just to see what it does with it.





Got the LG 10000Q set up. All I can say is I have no doubt it is as clean as you'll ever hear the 212's at any volume that is humanly tolerable. Seriously. I'm not going to compare this amp to that amp or wax poetic about how this may, or may not, sound the same/better/worse than my Denon 4311 or the Sunfire. All I will say is that the LG walks right up behind the 212's, grabs them by the 'nads and takes charge. 'Nuff said.
Just got done with a LOT of music and watched The Matrix to cap off the day. We watched at +4.5 over reference and it was so clean and effortless that it's ridiculous. I started out at reference and it sounded like it was at about -5, so I corrected it. And man, awesome is the only way to describe the experience. Imax, shmimax. I have never heard a better reproduction of a soundtrack in my life. I have no room treatments.

As to the issue of overpowering the room, I'm not sure what that means. But if it's too loud to tolerate, then every amp that I have had powering the 212's could do that. The difference is in the sense of effortlessness between them. All I can say is that reference is perceptually less loud with this amp than the others. That was consistent through several demo scenes. Placebo effect? Can't say for sure, but what I do know for sure is that I was playing everything louder because I could and it was just so clean it was hard not to keep cranking a little more. And that is an objective observation based on the dial.

Damn it that was not what I wanted to read. Oh well my fate is pretty well sealed and it looks like I will be buying myself a little xmas present. Thanks Doc rolleyes.gifwink.gifcool.gif
post #11733 of 18704
Goodoc. How did u hook up the lab? Did u use line out from receiver to xlr in to the lab then xlr out to the banana plug in to the speakers? And what gain did u set? Once gain set at the lab can u control the volume from the receiver alone?
post #11734 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

now I really want one. If it sounds less loud than the others at reference that is a good sign. After cranking it for a while did the fans just stay on all the time? how warm did it get? How was the noise floor at you final input sensitivity position? and what position did you land on? Sorry for all the questions but thanks for the posts Goddoc.

It is like tracking an animal for the night's meal and finding dung on the trail. Yes, a very good sign.biggrin.gif

As to the fans, they stay on continuously. Since the amp is removed from the system entirely I can't watch the lights all the time, but there are 5 lights per channel on the amp ranging from -40 dB to -4 dB(-40/-20/-15/-10/-4) and I turned up the volume to a tolerably loud level and we walked downstairs to look at the lights. The -20dB light was occasionally flickering and we could barely hear the music through the floor. Standing there I turned up the volume enough that it was clearly significantly louder through the floor and I could just get the -15 dB light to flicker. I didn't walk back up to the room, but it was clearly VERY loud up there. So this amp is just loafing along and that's how i like it..smile.gif

With the amp on and the speakers connected the amp is dead silent. I have a slight buzz from my AVR when I connect the RCA's. I have the amp gain at 23 dB, the lowest setting possible, and that gets me a trim of -7 dB in my AVR at reference calibration

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Damn it that was not what I wanted to read. Oh well my fate is pretty well sealed and it looks like I will be buying myself a little xmas present. Thanks Doc rolleyes.gifwink.gifcool.gif

RMK, if there is such a thing as a "matching" amp for the 212's, this is it. There is a clear reason Jeff uses this amp. A pragmatic individual could reasonably come to the conclusion that it is not worth upgrading his amplifier for a bit more effortlessness. It is not "night and day" difference across the volume dial. I can't say I hear more detail at lower volumes. But at reference level and beyond my impression is that it is dreamily effortless. The kind of effortlessness I think we all strive to have our systems achieve. How big a difference that is from your current amp I can't say.

But one goal of this amp purchase for me was simply to remove all doubt. Same or better, the upgrade was worth it to me for that reason alone, but YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Goodoc. How did u hook up the lab? Did u use line out from receiver to xlr in to the lab then xlr out to the banana plug in to the speakers? And what gain did u set? Once gain set at the lab can u control the volume from the receiver alone?

The LG model I got uses speakon connectors for the speakers. They lock in like an XLR and and they are awesome. The line-out RCA's from the AVR are connected to the amp using Markertek RCA - XLR cables. The gain on the LG is adjustable using dip switches on the back of the amp, so it is fixed once set and then the volume is controlled by the AVR.
Edited by Gooddoc - 10/20/13 at 9:15am
post #11735 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

It is is like tracking an animal for the night's meal and finding dung on the trail. Yes, a very good sign.biggrin.gif

As to the fans, they stay on continuously. Since the amp is removed from the system entirely I can't watch the lights all the time, but there are 5 lights per channel on the amp ranging from -40 dB to -4 dB(-40/-20/-15/-10/-4) and I turned up the volume to a tolerably loud level and we walked downstairs to look at the lights. The -20dB light was occasionally flickering and we could barely hear the music through the floor. Standing there I turned up the volume enough that it was clearly significantly louder through the floor and I could just get the -15 dB light to flicker. I didn't walk back up to the room, but it was clearly VERY loud up there. So this amp is just loafing along and that's how i like it..smile.gif

With the amp on and the speakers connected the amp is dead silent. I have a slight buzz from my AVR when I connect the RCA's. I have the amp gain at 23 dB, the lowest setting possible, and that gets me a trim of -7 dB in my AVR at reference calibration
RMK, if there is such a thing as a "matching" amp for the 212's, this is it. There is a clear reason Jeff uses this amp. A pragmatic individual could reasonably come to the conclusion that it is not worth upgrading his amplifier for a bit more effortlessness. It is not "night and day" difference across the volume dial. I can't say I hear more detail at lower volumes. But at reference level and beyond my impression is that it is dreamily effortless. The kind of effortlessness I think we all strive to have our systems achieve. How big a difference that is from your current amp I can't say.

But one goal of this amp purchase for me was simply to remove all doubt. Same or better, the upgrade was worth it to me for that reason alone, but YMMV.
The LG model I got uses speakon connectors for the speakers. They lock in like an XLR and and they are awesome. The line-out RCA's from the AVR are connected to the amp using Markertek RCA - XLR cables. The gain on the LG is adjustable using dip switches on the back of the amp, so it is fixed once set and then the volume is controlled by the AVR.
Good news about the noise floor and only needing the 23dB sensitivity setting with your avr. I agree about matching the amp. I kow so many always say but you have 101dB speakers why the large amp? Well there is a reason the Cat 12's use amps that deliver 2000watts (program) for each speaker and the OS has a 4000 watt (program) amp built in. Both of these examples are senstitive speaker designs, so why didn't Mark and Jeff just drop in a 145watt avr type amp module into those speakers? Because if you want to maximize the performance at all levels you get the amp that is rated program output for what the speakers will handle.

Ok now that I know the LG should be in a seperate room I can do some planning and make that work. very good information for those of us considering this amp. I hope to plan this out for the March timeframe.
post #11736 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

It is is like tracking an animal for the night's meal and finding dung on the trail. Yes, a very good sign.biggrin.gif

As to the fans, they stay on continuously. Since the amp is removed from the system entirely I can't watch the lights all the time, but there are 5 lights per channel on the amp ranging from -40 dB to -4 dB(-40/-20/-15/-10/-4) and I turned up the volume to a tolerably loud level and we walked downstairs to look at the lights. The -20dB light was occasionally flickering and we could barely hear the music through the floor. Standing there I turned up the volume enough that it was clearly significantly louder through the floor and I could just get the -15 dB light to flicker. I didn't walk back up to the room, but it was clearly VERY loud up there. So this amp is just loafing along and that's how i like it..smile.gif

With the amp on and the speakers connected the amp is dead silent. I have a slight buzz from my AVR when I connect the RCA's. I have the amp gain at 23 dB, the lowest setting possible, and that gets me a trim of -7 dB in my AVR at reference calibration
RMK, if there is such a thing as a "matching" amp for the 212's, this is it. There is a clear reason Jeff uses this amp. A pragmatic individual could reasonably come to the conclusion that it is not worth upgrading his amplifier for a bit more effortlessness. It is not "night and day" difference across the volume dial. I can't say I hear more detail at lower volumes. But at reference level and beyond my impression is that it is dreamily effortless. The kind of effortlessness I think we all strive to have our systems achieve. How big a difference that is from your current amp I can't say.

But one goal of this amp purchase for me was simply to remove all doubt. Same or better, the upgrade was worth it to me for that reason alone, but YMMV.
The LG model I got uses speakon connectors for the speakers. They lock in like an XLR and and they are awesome. The line-out RCA's from the AVR are connected to the amp using Markertek RCA - XLR cables. The gain on the LG is adjustable using dip switches on the back of the amp, so it is fixed once set and then the volume is controlled by the AVR.

Thanks Doc and I'm sure you and LB are correct about the LG. I'm looking at some changes and this amp is on the radar (more than ever).

BTW, watched Pacific Rim (3D) last night. It's a leave your brain at the door smashfest. The most ridiculous continuous auditory assault ever. My bride was a trouper and hung in there throughout the entire 2 hours of pummeling bass. I have liked other Guillermo del Toro flicks (Pan's Labyrinth being one of my favorites) and this one had just enough plot to make it interesting but the audio and video are 5 star. cool.gif
post #11737 of 18704
Guys, I have been reading about the mini DSP and I am interested in buying it with the microphone. My question is, do I need the mini DSP? I have a Denon 4520 with XT32. Do I still need something like thisn or do I already above the mini DSP? I am trying to gather info on what I need to buy. I have all Apple mac products. If anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.
post #11738 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Guys, I have been reading about the mini DSP and I am interested in buying it with the microphone. My question is, do I need the mini DSP? I have a Denon 4520 with XT32. Do I still need something like thisn or do I already above the mini DSP? I am trying to gather info on what I need to buy. I have all Apple mac products. If anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.
Reed, can you remind me which subs and how many subs are you running and also how many are in completely seperate locations (not stacked or right next to eachother?
post #11739 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Thanks Doc and I'm sure you and LB are correct about the LG. I'm looking at some changes and this amp is on the radar (more than ever).

BTW, watched Pacific Rim (3D) last night. It's a leave your brain at the door smashfest. The most ridiculous continuous auditory assault ever. My bride was a trouper and hung in there throughout the entire 2 hours of pummeling bass. I have liked other Guillermo del Toro flicks (Pan's Labyrinth being one of my favorites) and this one had just enough plot to make it interesting but the audio and video are 5 star. cool.gif
so sounds like Pacific Rim might be a good choice for the GTG.wink.gif
post #11740 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


The LG model I got uses speakon connectors for the speakers. They lock in like an XLR and and they are awesome. The line-out RCA's from the AVR are connected to the amp using Markertek RCA - XLR cables. The gain on the LG is adjustable using dip switches on the back of the amp, so it is fixed once set and then the volume is controlled by the AVR.

Gooddoc,

How do i set the dip switches for gain on the LG? can you tell me which goes up which goes down? I don't understand the manual... and haven't used amps with dip switches ever.. its' all very confusing for me. And can someone advices me what it means to set 23 gain at the back or 32gain or whatever... i mean, what's the gain dial at the front of the panel for each output vs the gain at the back using dip switches? Currently mine are all at the bottom, nothing is turned up and it seem to work fine for me. And what's all these 'soft/hard modes, protection' dip switches and what should i set them to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

Good news about the noise floor and only needing the 23dB sensitivity setting with your avr. I agree about matching the amp. I kow so many always say but you have 101dB speakers why the large amp? Well there is a reason the Cat 12's use amps that deliver 2000watts (program) for each speaker and the OS has a 4000 watt (program) amp built in. Both of these examples are senstitive speaker designs, so why didn't Mark and Jeff just drop in a 145watt avr type amp module into those speakers? Because if you want to maximize the performance at all levels you get the amp that is rated program output for what the speakers will handle.

Ok now that I know the LG should be in a seperate room I can do some planning and make that work. very good information for those of us considering this amp. I hope to plan this out for the March timeframe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Thanks Doc and I'm sure you and LB are correct about the LG. I'm looking at some changes and this amp is on the radar (more than ever).

BTW, watched Pacific Rim (3D) last night. It's a leave your brain at the door smashfest. The most ridiculous continuous auditory assault ever. My bride was a trouper and hung in there throughout the entire 2 hours of pummeling bass. I have liked other Guillermo del Toro flicks (Pan's Labyrinth being one of my favorites) and this one had just enough plot to make it interesting but the audio and video are 5 star. cool.gif

Ok, I have had my LG Clone for about a week now, but as usual procrastinating on setting it up... (haha)... but after reading Gooddoc's review of the amp, i decided to get off my a** and figure it all out.. I managed to make it work... it was a tough road... when i set up the amp, my receiver kept clipping... even at low volumes.. i couldn't figure out why... until finally i found the problem.. .i left the speaker wires still in their banana plugs on the receiver and unplugged from the speakers... apparently you can't do that.. so, after i unplugged the speaker wires from my receiver and only left the 'line out' to my LG clone, the clipping stopped...

Ok, here's my impression:

Myth 1: A Watt is a Watt (BUSTED)

A Watt is NOT a watt... I know previously a lot of discussion on whether you can tell a difference between using a more powerful amp compared to your regular receiver considering the Noesis are 101dB sensitive... Just from a mathematical standpoint, you would think 64 watts is enough to bring the Noesis to Reference.. but in real life, that's not how it work... As soon as I plugged in the LG Clone, like gooddoc said, it's not light and day difference.. it's subtle... suddenly, the Noesis, already perfection in my mind, became MORE perfect.. I can't explain it well.. so, I am going to use some analogies:

a) Imagine the frequency range as a discrete signal like the second hand on the clock.. well, that's how it would sound like on the receiver... basically, not as silky smooth as a continuous line... but the LG turns that into continuous line... Suddenly the music seems more blended together..
b) On my receiver, listening at the level i want to, will sort of tire me out... for some reason, fatique... a little, not by much.. but i felt like i want to go higher, but it's already too loud... remember me complaining about not enough mid bass? Well, suddenly, i can turn the volume up further, like 6dB before it becomes too loud.. and then suddenly because there's more wattage going into the Noesis, the MID BASS came out of hiding.. suddenly i can play loud enough to get 'enough mid bass' out of my noesis... and yet doesn't sound too loud... now, i am not sure i need to build anymore mid bass modules.. but knowing me, greedy and all, i would still most likely build one just out of curiosity... right not, the Noesis is giving me a pretty nice 'pounding' all by itself....
c) Harshness.. the Noesis is one of the least harsh speakers i have ever heard.... yet, just when you don't think it can get smoother, it does with the LG Clone.. Now, I think it's smooth perfection... i don't believe it can get smoother... just like i don't believe bass can get louder than the OS...
d) With very dynamic materials like DTS concert music, my receiver constantly blinks the 'peak' light.. basically, i think there are peaks or materials that it can't output enough wattage... so, it cuts it off... with the LG, it plays every note... basically you get more dynamics out of your speakers...

So, to summarize.. the LG clone is a MUST have to complement your Noesis... You can listen to materials above reference without fatique at all... they sound incredibly smooth... I think i can play 6dB louder than with just my receiver... and feel like it's just as loud, but with more dynamics, like better mid bass, sweeter vocals, smoother response, and more effortless.. like i can keep turning it up and still be able to be in the same room...
post #11741 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Guys, I have been reading about the mini DSP and I am interested in buying it with the microphone. My question is, do I need the mini DSP? I have a Denon 4520 with XT32. Do I still need something like thisn or do I already above the mini DSP? I am trying to gather info on what I need to buy. I have all Apple mac products. If anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.

Well, unless you have many subs and want to match them all together, you won't need the miniDSP...
post #11742 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Gooddoc,

How do i set the dip switches for gain on the LG? can you tell me which goes up which goes down? I don't understand the manual... and haven't used amps with dip switches ever.. its' all very confusing for me. And can someone advices me what it means to set 23 gain at the back or 32gain or whatever... i mean, what's the gain dial at the front of the panel for each output vs the gain at the back using dip switches? Currently mine are all at the bottom, nothing is turned up and it seem to work fine for me. And what's all these 'soft/hard modes, protection' dip switches and what should i set them to?

Ok, I have had my LG Clone for about a week now, but as usual procrastinating on setting it up... (haha)... but after reading Gooddoc's review of the amp, i decided to get off my a** and figure it all out.. I managed to make it work... it was a tough road... when i set up the amp, my receiver kept clipping... even at low volumes.. i couldn't figure out why... until finally i found the problem.. .i left the speaker wires still in their banana plugs on the receiver and unplugged from the speakers... apparently you can't do that.. so, after i unplugged the speaker wires from my receiver and only left the 'line out' to my LG clone, the clipping stopped...

Ok, here's my impression:

Myth 1: A Watt is a Watt (BUSTED)

A Watt is NOT a watt... I know previously a lot of discussion on whether you can tell a difference between using a more powerful amp compared to your regular receiver considering the Noesis are 101dB sensitive... Just from a mathematical standpoint, you would think 64 watts is enough to bring the Noesis to Reference.. but in real life, that's not how it work... As soon as I plugged in the LG Clone, like gooddoc said, it's not light and day difference.. it's subtle... suddenly, the Noesis, already perfection in my mind, became MORE perfect.. I can't explain it well.. so, I am going to use some analogies:

a) Imagine the frequency range as a discrete signal like the second hand on the clock.. well, that's how it would sound like on the receiver... basically, not as silky smooth as a continuous line... but the LG turns that into continuous line... Suddenly the music seems more blended together..
b) On my receiver, listening at the level i want to, will sort of tire me out... for some reason, fatique... a little, not by much.. but i felt like i want to go higher, but it's already too loud... remember me complaining about not enough mid bass? Well, suddenly, i can turn the volume up further, like 6dB before it becomes too loud.. and then suddenly because there's more wattage going into the Noesis, the MID BASS came out of hiding.. suddenly i can play loud enough to get 'enough mid bass' out of my noesis... and yet doesn't sound too loud... now, i am not sure i need to build anymore mid bass modules.. but knowing me, greedy and all, i would still most likely build one just out of curiosity... right not, the Noesis is giving me a pretty nice 'pounding' all by itself....
c) Harshness.. the Noesis is one of the least harsh speakers i have ever heard.... yet, just when you don't think it can get smoother, it does with the LG Clone.. Now, I think it's smooth perfection... i don't believe it can get smoother... just like i don't believe bass can get louder than the OS...
d) With very dynamic materials like DTS concert music, my receiver constantly blinks the 'peak' light.. basically, i think there are peaks or materials that it can't output enough wattage... so, it cuts it off... with the LG, it plays every note... basically you get more dynamics out of your speakers...

So, to summarize.. the LG clone is a MUST have to complement your Noesis... You can listen to materials above reference without fatique at all... they sound incredibly smooth... I think i can play 6dB louder than with just my receiver... and feel like it's just as loud, but with more dynamics, like better mid bass, sweeter vocals, smoother response, and more effortless.. like i can keep turning it up and still be able to be in the same room...
Cool, good to get your experience with the clone too. I am pretty sure everything you and Gooddoc are describing is what needs fixing for my listening habits. 6dB of additional output is not trivial, I would think compared to your avr you are probably more on the order of 10-12dB. 2100 watts program vs what is your avr maybe 150. In any event it sounds like it is really making the Noesis shine, that is awesome.

Not sure why the LG has gain settings in the back and the front? Maybe they affect different stages of the amplifier, just a gues I have no idea.
post #11743 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

Cool, good to get your experience with the clone too. I am pretty sure everything you and Gooddoc are describing is what needs fixing for my listening habits. 6dB of additional output is not trivial, I would think compared to your avr you are probably more on the order of 10-12dB. 2100 watts program vs what is your avr maybe 150. In any event it sounds like it is really making the Noesis shine, that is awesome.

Not sure why the LG has gain settings in the back and the front? Maybe they affect different stages of the amplifier, just a gues I have no idea.

Actually I don't mean the clone plays only 6db louder. What I meant is that I can play 6db louder n don't feel it's too loud compared to the receiver. I feel like I can keep playing louder n louder with no end in sight with the new amp n its not even breaking a sweat.
post #11744 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Actually I don't mean the clone plays only 6db louder. What I meant is that I can play 6db louder n don't feel it's too loud compared to the receiver. I feel like I can keep playing louder n louder with no end in sight with the new amp n its not even breaking a sweat.

That is interesting ...

If I thought these amps would work with any kind of reasonable reliability I'd probably give one a try. Did you get the 10000 4 channel or or the 14000 2channel model?

BTW, a watt is in fact a watt ... tongue.gifwink.gif
post #11745 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Actually I don't mean the clone plays only 6db louder. What I meant is that I can play 6db louder n don't feel it's too loud compared to the receiver. I feel like I can keep playing louder n louder with no end in sight with the new amp n its not even breaking a sweat.
. ok I see what you're saying
post #11746 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by staaled View Post



For comparison.

I answered my own question, looking back through the images in this thread staaled posted a picture of the 228HT next to a 212HT-LP.

Considering that height is really the only difference in space constraints between these two I may have to start thinking hard about the price vs. value moving up to the 212HT-LP. I have been listening to more concert BD's and some FLAC music lately, so my near 100% movie usage ratio may change enough to warrant the better musical reproduction.
post #11747 of 18704
Does Jeff still do the JTR Speakers logo routing on the back of his speakers? Looks pretty cool IMO.

post #11748 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

That is interesting ...

If I thought these amps would work with any kind of reasonable reliability I'd probably give one a try. Did you get the 10000 4 channel or or the 14000 2channel model?

BTW, a watt is in fact a watt ... tongue.gifwink.gif

I got the 10000 because it gives me 4 channels of 2100watt each. Perfect for the lcr noesis plus one extra channel for a mid bass unit I will likely end up building.

Lol a watt is indeed a watt. You're right again. I meant to say just enough power is actually not enough. More watts means more bandwidth means better.

On the sonic differences I notice ot even at low volumes and the difference is sutle but quite significant. The music is just that bit more full n sweet sounding. At higher volumes the difference is even more. Even my friend who kept asking me to turn it down last week was asking me to turn it up more today.

But a caveat. My receiver is about 8 years old so not sure how much improvement in amp technology nowadays. For all I know today's receivers will sound just as good as the clone.
post #11749 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by emr25 View Post

I answered my own question, looking back through the images in this thread staaled posted a picture of the 228HT next to a 212HT-LP.

Considering that height is really the only difference in space constraints between these two I may have to start thinking hard about the price vs. value moving up to the 212HT-LP. I have been listening to more concert BD's and some FLAC music lately, so my near 100% movie usage ratio may change enough to warrant the better musical reproduction.

I thought the same. I was a 99 percent movie n 1 percent music guy until I got the noesis 212. Now I am 80 percent music n live concerts n 20 percent movies.

I have a feeling that anyone buying the 228 will eventually upgrade to the 212 n end up spending 3k more instead of saving 3k
post #11750 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Gooddoc,

How do i set the dip switches for gain on the LG? can you tell me which goes up which goes down? I don't understand the manual... and haven't used amps with dip switches ever.. its' all very confusing for me. And can someone advices me what it means to set 23 gain at the back or 32gain or whatever... i mean, what's the gain dial at the front of the panel for each output vs the gain at the back using dip switches? Currently mine are all at the bottom, nothing is turned up and it seem to work fine for me. And what's all these 'soft/hard modes, protection' dip switches and what should i set them to?

I'm not certain the clone has everything functional or not. You might want to hit the clone thread and ask. On the OEM there is a picture above the dip switches on the back of the amp. Just look at the pic to see which position(up or down) the switch needs to be in for the gain you want. There are three switches and different combos for each gain structure. Does the clone not have the pics above the dip switches? For speakers you want the protection mode to be on "soft", but again, I don't even know if that is functional on the clone?

Sorry, not trying to be down on the clone, I simply don't know what is actually functioning compared to the OEM and I suspect no one else does either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

Not sure why the LG has gain settings in the back and the front? Maybe they affect different stages of the amplifier, just a gues I have no idea.

The dip switches in the rear of the amp affect all channels globally. The gain knobs on the front control gain for each channel individually. This way you can set a global maximum gain of say 28 dB and then turn down one or more channels to 18 dB gain depending on the speaker your driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

That is interesting ...

If I thought these amps would work with any kind of reasonable reliability I'd probably give one a try. Did you get the 10000 4 channel or or the 14000 2channel model?

BTW, a watt is in fact a watt ... tongue.gifwink.gif

Reliability is one issue, but also the protection circuits. The OEM has SOAD(Safe Operating Area Detector) that compares output voltage against output current, CPL(Current Peak Limiter) that keeps the amp within limits, VHF(Very High Frequency Protection) that protects the high frequency drivers from continuous very high frequencies in the input signal, DC protection to protect the speakers form a hardware malfunction, High and Low Impedance protection circuits, Temperature Protection on each channel and the power supply, PAL(Power Average Limiter) that controls the current draw relationship between the power supply and mains and limits the maximum average power consumption to ensure the power supply doesn't overload, and Soft-Start to prevent circuit breaker tripping.

AFAIK, no one has tested to see if any of it is functional on the clones. The OEM is built like a tank inside, and I like that.

I know, I know, I probably shouldn't say any of that in case I might insult a clone owner. I DO NOT mean that as an insult to the clone amps. I get it, they're very cheap and I don't fault anyone for buying them. It seems their raw performance is right up there with the OEM amps. Who knows, maybe everything is exactly the same as the OEM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Guys, I have been reading about the mini DSP and I am interested in buying it with the microphone. My question is, do I need the mini DSP? I have a Denon 4520 with XT32. Do I still need something like thisn or do I already above the mini DSP? I am trying to gather info on what I need to buy. I have all Apple mac products. If anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.

The miniDSP can be used along with Audyssey and gives an added level of "tweakability".

You have two choices here, take the Blue pill and you will run Audyssey and think it is the greatest thing that you've ever heard and be blissfully happy. The fake flat line 'post-Audyssey" graphs will make you smile inside for the rest of your life.

Take the Red pill and you buy a mic, measuring gear, and the miniDSP. You then slide farther into the proverbial rabbit hole as you discover that the Audyssey Kool-aid has kept you from seeing the real FR in your room. You will forever be tweaking and adjusting as you strive to get a true flat line FR curve in your room.


A little over dramatized, but hopefully you get the picture biggrin.gif
post #11751 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by emr25 View Post

Does Jeff still do the JTR Speakers logo routing on the back of his speakers? Looks pretty cool IMO.


Unfortunately he does not but I agree it looks cool. The first JTR's I heard were the original Triple 8's and they had the logo and individual round metal grills for the 3 drivers.
post #11752 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


Reliability is one issue, but also the protection circuits. The OEM has SOAD(Safe Operating Area Detector) that compares output voltage against output current, CPL(Current Peak Limiter) that keeps the amp within limits, VHF(Very High Frequency Protection) that protects the high frequency drivers from continuous very high frequencies in the input signal, DC protection to protect the speakers form a hardware malfunction, High and Low Impedance protection circuits, Temperature Protection on each channel and the power supply, PAL(Power Average Limiter) that controls the current draw relationship between the power supply and mains and limits the maximum average power consumption to ensure the power supply doesn't overload, and Soft-Start to prevent circuit breaker tripping.

AFAIK, no one has tested to see if any of it is functional on the clones. The OEM is built like a tank inside, and I like that.

I know, I know, I probably shouldn't say any of that in case I might insult a clone owner. I DO NOT mean that as an insult to the clone amps. I get it, they're very cheap and I don't fault anyone for buying them. It seems their raw performance is right up there with the OEM amps. Who knows, maybe everything is exactly the same as the OEM.

Good points and I was thinking along the same lines. However, if the watts are honest and it works out of the box it might be worth a gamble for $1K vs $5K wink.gif.
It will be going into a separate equipment closet so fan noise is not an issue. I am going to keep my W4S 7ch amp amp anyway so I got me some backup. tongue.gif
post #11753 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

so sounds like Pacific Rim might be a good choice for the GTG.wink.gif

Yeah, it really shows off what the Noesis and OS's do best ... cool.gif
post #11754 of 18704
Yesterday at the gtg I got to see my drivers moving for the first time. At home I can get them to basically "vibrate" enough with my receiver so that you can see there is something going on if you are right up close, but that's about it. With an Inuke 3000 powering the 212's outside I could see some good movement of the driver. Still not much though, and the inuke was tapped out. I wanted to do one of those zooming out videos with the 212's and passive Captivators, but the Inukes were not up to the task. It was still very, very loud but it was obvious that the Caps and the Noesis weren't even working hard yet and the clip light was solid on the inukes.

You guys that have LG's and LG clones are making me day dream... I want to believe that what you hear is real but when we did our blind amp test we couldn't tell between a receiver, a 20 watt T amp, and an expensive Emotiva amp when we were able to immediately switch back and forth between amps and the amps were calibrated within .2 decibels of each other.

Leading up to the blind amp GTG I was borrowing a Crown amp to power the Noesis and I swore I heard a difference, but then that was proved to be wrong at the blind test.

Still, the fact that it takes a seperate amp to even get the drivers to move beyond just barely vibrating leads me to believe I need one for cranking up around reference and above.

Currently I watch movies with my wife at -4 to -7 under reference depending on the movie and it doesn't sound harsh or even all that loud, just effortless and dynamic.

Either way I'm jealous of you guys and if I could afford it right now I'd at least buy a clone and find out for myself.
post #11755 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Guys, I have been reading about the mini DSP and I am interested in buying it with the microphone. My question is, do I need the mini DSP? I have a Denon 4520 with XT32. Do I still need something like thisn or do I already above the mini DSP? I am trying to gather info on what I need to buy. I have all Apple mac products. If anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.

It will give you more options. Manual PEQ. Putting in a low shelf filter to add a house curve. You can also develop custom FIR filters and upload them. Much more than not having one. The FIR is on the Open DRC BTW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Well, unless you have many subs and want to match them all together, you won't need the miniDSP...

See above comments, it's not about many subs. It's about customization

Quote:
Originally Posted by emr25 View Post

Does Jeff still do the JTR Speakers logo routing on the back of his speakers? Looks pretty cool IMO.


PM bsoko2. Not sure if he still has them but he had a pair.
post #11756 of 18704
I will ship my quick amp switching tester to anyone who swears they can tell a difference with their high quality amp vs. their mid tier or better AVR at normal listening volumes to do some testing on their own - so they can confirm on their own. I will even loan out my t-amp for the test. If interested PM me. Shipping would probably be $10 each way. With this simple mechanism you hook up (up to four) several amps to one set of speakers. You level match all the amps and then have just simple switches to throw to swap between the amps - meaning you can swap amps in a split second.



After the KC amp meet - I'm planted pretty firmly in the camp that states most every bit of that bonus clarity or sound quality you get off a high powered amp is sourced in placebo. At least for normal and even above normal volume listening use.
I was unsure before --- which is why I made the amp switching mechanism.

Even in testing Klipsch RF-63 speakers full range - we couldn't' tell the difference between a $20 T-Amp, an Emotiva XPA-2, Onkyo TX-NR1007 AVR, or Pioneer Elite AVR. That was with three of us testing at my place. Carp, Scrappydue, and myself. As you turned up the volume the T-amp gave way to poorer sound reproduction first - but it was at surprisingly loud (louder than normal listening) volumes - even in full range use on the Klipsch RF-63 speakers which are getting close to 10dB less sensitive than the Noesis 212HT in real world testing. My 228HT were 3-4 dB more sensitive than the RF-63, and the 212HT are 4-5 dB more sensitive than my 228HT.
post #11757 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yesterday at the gtg I got to see my drivers moving for the first time. At home I can get them to basically "vibrate" enough with my receiver so that you can see there is something going on if you are right up close, but that's about it. With an Inuke 3000 powering the 212's outside I could see some good movement of the driver. Still not much though, and the inuke was tapped out. I wanted to do one of those zooming out videos with the 212's and passive Captivators, but the Inukes were not up to the task. It was still very, very loud but it was obvious that the Caps and the Noesis weren't even working hard yet and the clip light was solid on the inukes.

You guys that have LG's and LG clones are making me day dream... I want to believe that what you hear is real but when we did our blind amp test we couldn't tell between a receiver, a 20 watt T amp, and an expensive Emotiva amp when we were able to immediately switch back and forth between amps and the amps were calibrated within .2 decibels of each other.

Leading up to the blind amp GTG I was borrowing a Crown amp to power the Noesis and I swore I heard a difference, but then that was proved to be wrong at the blind test.

Still, the fact that it takes a seperate amp to even get the drivers to move beyond just barely vibrating leads me to believe I need one for cranking up around reference and above.

Currently I watch movies with my wife at -4 to -7 under reference depending on the movie and it doesn't sound harsh or even all that loud, just effortless and dynamic.

Either way I'm jealous of you guys and if I could afford it right now I'd at least buy a clone and find out for myself.

I think the amp test is inherently faulty. Here's why.

1. It was calibrated to the exact same spl which means the lowest denominator. The lower the volume the less of a difference you will hear. It's like saying there's no difference between driving a porsche vs a toyota if you are only allowed to go at 65 mph.

With the clone amp I tend to want it playing louder than my receiver.

2. The sq difference is subtle. I am not sure you can immediately tell a difference but when you have more time to listen at home you tend to want to listen to the clone more. For me the sound is a lot more addictive. It all happens in the brain.

2. You might like it louder n cleaner and that test doesn't show that. Basically a better test is give the remote to someone n let them play with the volume on both amps n then see which one they prefer.

Again I must clarify that I am comparing an 8 year old receiver that is putting out 80 watts per channel vs a brand new 2000watt per channel amp. For those with newer receivers the difference might be less or only noticeable at higher volumes.
post #11758 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

I think the amp test is inherently faulty. Here's why.

1. It was calibrated to the exact same spl which means the lowest denominator. The lower the volume the less of a difference you will hear. It's like saying there's no difference between driving a porsche vs a toyota if you are only allowed to go at 65 mph.

With the clone amp I tend to want it playing louder than my receiver.

2. The sq difference is subtle. I am not sure you can immediately tell a difference but when you have more time to listen at home you tend to want to listen to the clone more. For me the sound is a lot more addictive. It all happens in the brain.

2. You might like it louder n cleaner and that test doesn't show that. Basically a better test is give the remote to someone n let them play with the volume on both amps n then see which one they prefer.

Again I must clarify that I am comparing an 8 year old receiver that is putting out 80 watts per channel vs a brand new 2000watt per channel amp. For those with newer receivers the difference might be less or only noticeable at higher volumes.

If theres less difference with lower volume, that would suggest it has only to do with available power. The only thing that is happening is that you are now, not running out of power at higher spl, just like what carp was saying with his T-amp. If there was a sonic difference, you should be able to hear it at any volume.
Theres also the factor of if you have the dip's set properly on the clone. If you have the vlp set at max and the gain at 44 or similar, that would be a 6dB gain to the clone in spl, right off the hop. I do know for certain that the clones sound great on the Noesis and have a ton of power to give you clean sound no matter what volume they are played at.
We all agree that they will sound better with more power at higher volumes if the other amp is running out, it's the sonic differences that is purely subjective. Discussing it on either way is a waste of time as it's purely subjective and you can't make someone hear something if they don't, it will just turn into every other amp vs amp thread.

What would really be interesting for you Cookgeek, is to try another higher powered amp to see if you hear a difference between it and your clone!

At the end of the day, it's a fun hobby and your own personal experience is really all that matters and it sounds as if you found a perfect match!!!! smile.gif
post #11759 of 18704
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


Currently I watch movies with my wife at -4 to -7 under reference depending on the movie and it doesn't sound harsh or even all that loud, just effortless and dynamic.

A High Quality amp would allow this same -4 to -7 level to sound Cleaner. You could move to Reference and it would not sound as Loud.
People get lost in the X amount of watts = Y amount of dbs when its about Pure Clean Sound when comparing reference level with an amp to reference level with an AVR.
My Pioneer SC-37 would get so hot it would shut down when running at reference level for over an hour.
Chris

What this difference could be attributed to is that an amp can maintain a constant/continuous level of watts for a longer period of time than an AVR so when the AVR drops out it causes a break up that is Audibly perceived as distortion or a bad sound. Maybe the differences are not about how many watts but how long the watts can be produced VS the AVR not being able to hold the amount of watts needed for more than a few Milliseconds.
Edited by countryWV - 10/20/13 at 4:01pm
post #11760 of 18704
coolgeek,

There is a gentlemen out there that has offered $10K to anyone that is able to tell the difference between amps.

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/
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