or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Official JTR speaker thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official JTR speaker thread - Page 417

post #12481 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Interesting on the speaking pop. I guess if they wire up simply with a positive and negative then heck I'm sure Jeff would put them on any speaker.

Can someone confirm though if you simply just wire up the positive and negative? Do I need a soldering tool?

To wire a speakon, the only thing you need is a small tip screwdriver. +1 and -1 are used for positive and negative connections from your speaker wire. They are pretty simple mechanisms really --- the point being that it is pretty much impossible to accidentally shock yourself, or short out your equipment when plugging in PA equipment which may typically be hooked up to thousands of watts.



http://www.neutrik.com/zoolu-website/media/download/11983/Assembly+Instruction+-+NL2FX

http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/
post #12482 of 18424
I meant speakon, damn iPad auto correct! Looks straight forward! No reason to change out to binding posts! I do wonder why the triple 8's I'm getting have two. Prob to just jump to the next speaker smile.gif

Much appreciated for the link smile.gif
post #12483 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I know that sounds odd, but in my room at my LP it works and I prefer it for music for sure.


Here is why:





This is from 100hz to 300hz. The red line is with a 80hz crossover, the black line is a 150hz crossover, same settings on the master volume and sub trim volume. With my minidsp I can't do anything about that dip in between 100hz and 300 hz unless I change the crossover to 150hz.

Now, playing with speaker placement (using a 80hz crossover again) I can get that dip to come up but then I get peaks/valleys in other places including a nasty peak at 100hz.

The only way to get a nice flat (well, flat with house curve but I can go flat flat if I want to) curve is to raise the crossover.



I need to do some more measuring to see what is going on at the other seats, there is a good chance I will go back to 80hz crossover when I have other people over more movies because the black line in the graph obviously only applies in my seat.

As great as the bass has sounded in the past, the mid bass is significantly better now. Also I can easily turn down the sub trim and make the subs flat with the speakers (haha, not that I would actually want to do that biggrin.gif). I cannot achieve this with a 80hz crossover.

Fortunately the SI's seem easily capable of being crossed over that high for the midbass, not sure yet if it is affecting their low bass headroom.

Bottom line, I've had so many demo's in here that I'm confident that most of you guys would also prefer how the mid bass with music sounds now so the reason I posted about this yesterday is that if you have the minidsp or some other kind of eq and have issues between your crossover point and 200-300hz like I have always had, try it out. One more requirement would be multiple subs up front so that localization is not an issue. I think I'm lucky in that regard, my room has always been pretty good at not having issues with subs localization.

great data. great post.
post #12484 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post


Stereo subs if using the L/R output from your AVR and setting the crossover with the antimode itself, correct? If using the LFE output on an AVR there is no such thing as "stereo" bass. An AVR with multiple subEQ (XT32 + subEQ, etc...) will set distance and EQ the subs accordingly, but it will EQ the same LFE signal. In order to get stereo bass, one would have to refer to my first sentence above.

If I'm missing something, let me know?!?!?! confused.gif
biggrin.gif

In Dual Cores case stereosubs means each subwoofer is individually calibrated as opposed to monosubs where a pair wil be treated as one.
So it only refers to the DSP-settings.
In both cases Dual Core can set delays between subs as well. Auto or manual.

Just use the LFE output(s).smile.gif
post #12485 of 18424
Carp - I also have much better luck with smooth response in the 80-120 range using a higher crossover. My U215's play down to ~20-25hz (-3db) or so in my room, but the best integration seems to be when crossing them a bit higher at 100-120hz. I actually haven't tried 150 yet but I very much enjoyed the same "tight/clean" bass you also experienced with music with those settings. The nice benefit of running a slew of 18" sealed subs is that they typically have clean/flat output to 150-200hz and beyond.
post #12486 of 18424
mine are crossed at 120 for similar reasons as Andrew and Carp
post #12487 of 18424
Cool guys. I'll definitely give it a shot as well as soon as I get a chance.
post #12488 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I know that sounds odd, but in my room at my LP it works and I prefer it for music for sure.


Here is why:





This is from 100hz to 300hz. The red line is with a 80hz crossover, the black line is a 150hz crossover, same settings on the master volume and sub trim volume. With my minidsp I can't do anything about that dip in between 100hz and 300 hz unless I change the crossover to 150hz.

Now, playing with speaker placement (using a 80hz crossover again) I can get that dip to come up but then I get peaks/valleys in other places including a nasty peak at 100hz.

The only way to get a nice flat (well, flat with house curve but I can go flat flat if I want to) curve is to raise the crossover.



I need to do some more measuring to see what is going on at the other seats, there is a good chance I will go back to 80hz crossover when I have other people over more movies because the black line in the graph obviously only applies in my seat.

As great as the bass has sounded in the past, the mid bass is significantly better now. Also I can easily turn down the sub trim and make the subs flat with the speakers (haha, not that I would actually want to do that biggrin.gif). I cannot achieve this with a 80hz crossover.

Fortunately the SI's seem easily capable of being crossed over that high for the midbass, not sure yet if it is affecting their low bass headroom.

Bottom line, I've had so many demo's in here that I'm confident that most of you guys would also prefer how the mid bass with music sounds now so the reason I posted about this yesterday is that if you have the minidsp or some other kind of eq and have issues between your crossover point and 200-300hz like I have always had, try it out. One more requirement would be multiple subs up front so that localization is not an issue. I think I'm lucky in that regard, my room has always been pretty good at not having issues with subs localization.

Carp, thanks for posting this... the curve looks so good... smile.gif

I can't wait till i get my 18sounds drivers for a couple of mid bass units which I'll use like N8 does with his system... I always had the feeling that adding more to the mid bass will do wonders and now it's sorta confirmed by another person...
post #12489 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

RMK!

A agree!

A full range Noesis would be excellent. If only to give people an option, because I, like other here - already think the Noesis is stellar!

I do personally think most enthusiasts here would trade out some of the peak sensitivity (for home use anyway) for full range frequency response. The reality is 101dB sensitivity is too high for most small to even medium sized rooms - and the auto EQ systems can't even lower their channel levels to accommodate for such high sensitivity - so you end up having to manually level match or use a non 0 level on most Audyssey AVR's with the 212HT, or use some sort of attenuator device. Pretty much if your room is less than 4,000 square feet - any Audyssey AVR isn't going to be able to lower the SPL levels by default enough to not have minimum trims pegged in autosetup with the 212HT.

I told Jeff this last spring when I watched him race bikes, that a full range, sexy veneer by default, powerhouse model to win any g2g engagement should be considered. That direction hasn't been his business model though - he is still a pro audio shop at his roots. The end word is he makes fantastic products, and either direction he goes - I think his gear will be increasingly known and respected.

A full range tower speaker might just get that buzz generated a little faster and could perhaps really put him on the map in the home theater arena in a major way.

Yeah, that is my thinking as well. A bit risky as that would invite more involvement from the Audiophool world. tongue.gifwink.gif

Hey Carp, nice 12 db drop on that "house curve" ... but you have me thinking (damn it, I hate when that happens) and I might give it a go myself... smile.gif
post #12490 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Carp. Awesome house curve! Quick question for you (or anyone else that might know). If you are using your LFE out from your AVR, how would a 150hz cross effect your subs (for movies at least) as it's my understanding that the LFE channel is 0-120Hz.


biggrin.gif


I never thought of that! My motivation was mainly for music as usual, so you are probably right that the effect isn't as great for movies.

I would try a 120, 130, or 140 crossover but my AVR only had the options of 50, 80, 100, 150, and 200 for crossover options.
post #12491 of 18424
Carp, use the Windows snipping tool for screen shots. Your camera photos are killing me. tongue.gif Just click the "Start" icon in the bottom left and type "snipping" into the search bar. Snipping Tool will come up. Right click it and click "Pin to Start Menu". Now you can start it anytime you want a screen shot. It has several modes: free-form, rectangular, window, and full screen snip. I usually use rectangular. Save the snip and upload to your post. It only takes a couple seconds.

post #12492 of 18424
Thought you guys might get a kick outta this. This is the bass response of my room with an 80hz crossover running an 85dB sweep. This is with no smoothing and no EQ of any kind. I only have a Pio AVR so I was really hoping I didn't need to upgrade it to something with Audessey or go with an outboard EQ like a MiniDSP. Overall, I'm extremely happy with what I've got for bass. The speakers still need some tweaking as it's not exactly "flat" with or without MCACC... it's about +/- 5db with 1/6 smoothing so I'm sure if I fool around with placement I can do better, but that's enough for today.



After I get the speakers under control, I will give my review of the all Single 8 system I have in my VERY tiny room. I just want to wait to get a few movies under my belt with the best possible placement before I give my honest opinion. Even with a not so great full range response they still sound fantastic. cool.gif
post #12493 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Geeeez! What mic are you using to even register 141db Nate? Love it man...
biggrin.gif

I use this from my dB drag days : http://www.termpro.com/storefront/termlab.asp It's the one we always used for comps, so I bought my own for testing at home.

Ominmic goes bonkers around 134dB and even though it's MUCH louder, it still doesn't seem to measure it.
post #12494 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Carp - I also have much better luck with smooth response in the 80-120 range using a higher crossover. My U215's play down to ~20-25hz (-3db) or so in my room, but the best integration seems to be when crossing them a bit higher at 100-120hz. I actually haven't tried 150 yet but I very much enjoyed the same "tight/clean" bass you also experienced with music with those settings. The nice benefit of running a slew of 18" sealed subs is that they typically have clean/flat output to 150-200hz and beyond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

mine are crossed at 120 for similar reasons as Andrew and Carp

I have a bad 115 hz null. I may play around tonight
post #12495 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniHT View Post

Thought you guys might get a kick outta this. This is the bass response of my room with an 80hz crossover running an 85dB sweep. This is with no smoothing and no EQ of any kind. I only have a Pio AVR so I was really hoping I didn't need to upgrade it to something with Audessey or go with an outboard EQ like a MiniDSP. Overall, I'm extremely happy with what I've got for bass. The speakers still need some tweaking as it's not exactly "flat" with or without MCACC... it's about +/- 5db with 1/6 smoothing so I'm sure if I fool around with placement I can do better, but that's enough for today.



After I get the speakers under control, I will give my review of the all Single 8 system I have in my VERY tiny room. I just want to wait to get a few movies under my belt with the best possible placement before I give my honest opinion. Even with a not so great full range response they still sound fantastic. cool.gif

You should post that in the REW thread and make some people jealous!!!

That is awesome even a natural house curve right where it should be!!!
post #12496 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Carp - I also have much better luck with smooth response in the 80-120 range using a higher crossover. My U215's play down to ~20-25hz (-3db) or so in my room, but the best integration seems to be when crossing them a bit higher at 100-120hz. I actually haven't tried 150 yet but I very much enjoyed the same "tight/clean" bass you also experienced with music with those settings. The nice benefit of running a slew of 18" sealed subs is that they typically have clean/flat output to 150-200hz and beyond.


Do you think will we have a chance to hear the U215's at your GTG? I understand if there won't be enough time with all the other speakers that are going to be there but I'd love to hear them at some point if we get a chance! smile.gif
post #12497 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

great data. great post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Carp, thanks for posting this... the curve looks so good... smile.gif

I can't wait till i get my 18sounds drivers for a couple of mid bass units which I'll use like N8 does with his system... I always had the feeling that adding more to the mid bass will do wonders and now it's sorta confirmed by another person...



Thanks guys. smile.gif

Coolgeek, I wouldn't say the Noesis need more midbass necessarily. However, in your room if you can't get a nice response between the crossover and 300 hz OR if you like running a house curve with exaggerated bass then yes - I think mid bass units could be the way to go for you.

If you have a way to eq the Noesis to bump up the midbass then that might also be all you need, I don't know since I can't eq my mains.
post #12498 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I don't know since I can't eq my mains.
You could if you wanted. wink.gif You have more processing at your fingertips than the $5,000 Lab Gruppen Lake Processor.
post #12499 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


Thanks guys. smile.gif

Coolgeek, I wouldn't say the Noesis need more midbass necessarily. However, in your room if you can't get a nice response between the crossover and 300 hz OR if you like running a house curve with exaggerated bass then yes - I think mid bass units could be the way to go for you.

If you have a way to eq the Noesis to bump up the midbass then that might also be all you need, I don't know since I can't eq my mains.

Thanks for the advice.. However, since the Noesis is already crossed over within itself I don't see how I can give it more midbass...

I do love the mid bass on the Noesis.. it's the best I have heard so far considering all my previous speakers didn't have anything bigger than a 7 inch woofer... but for some reason, I can easily imagine wanting more... maybe I am just greedy.. I went out to audition some monster dual 18 inch mid bass used in the pro world, and I can say that I am blown away.. I just love the 'beat' that really whack you in the chest... it makes music so much nicer in my opinion... So, yes, if you call 'disco like mid bass slam', exaggerated, then that's what I WANT.. hahah.. tongue.gif

As for Low Bass, i have far more than enough with the Orbit Shifter.. I don't even need to turn that beast up much... biggrin.gif

It's great that you're experimenting and posting up all the charts and how you feel about each curve.. that actually is very helpful information...
post #12500 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Do you think will we have a chance to hear the U215's at your GTG? I understand if there won't be enough time with all the other speakers that are going to be there but I'd love to hear them at some point if we get a chance! smile.gif

If there is interest and time, then sure why not! wink.gif I've got to put them back in position at the end of the day anyway. tongue.gif
post #12501 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Carp, use the Windows snipping tool for screen shots. Your camera photos are killing me. tongue.gif Just click the "Start" icon in the bottom left and type "snipping" into the search bar. Snipping Tool will come up. Right click it and click "Pin to Start Menu". Now you can start it anytime you want a screen shot. It has several modes: free-form, rectangular, window, and full screen snip. I usually use rectangular. Save the snip and upload to your post. It only takes a couple seconds.



Thanks Michael, yeah that's much better! smile.gif


Ok, so here is another interesting comparison (well, to me anyway)

I have HSU MBM-12 that I have directly behind seat in the main LP. Here is a comparison of with the mbm on and off:





The red line is with the mbm on. I had to do a lot playing with the eq with the mbm on to try to get the two lines to match up.

I'll play with the minidsp more when I get a chance to try to match them almost exactly, but this is pretty good. When I'm listening to music sometimes I like the mbm on and sometimes off depending on mood. There is definitely more feel to the bass with the mbm on, and it's very nice. However, if I were being a stickler for sound quality I would say that the mbm off setting is slightly better. It's nice to have the two options, especially since both sound and feel very good it just depends on the band I'm listening to and my mood.

This proves to me that those who say nearfield subs will give you a more tactile feel in the midbass are right since the frequencies are so similar but the feeling from the bass is not.

BTW, it's nuts that I can't localize the mbm-12 with a 150hz crossover but I cannot!! There have been plenty of times that I couldn't remember if I had it on or not and I swore it was on and I was actually in the other minidsp setting that has it muted.


Question for you guys that know more than me (ha, so everyone). I've read many times that you want to EQ globally (not have different eq settings for different subs in the room). Is this always true? What if you are trying to tweak for just one seat in the room and you won't use that setting when other people are in the room?
The reason I ask is if I can do a different eq to the mbm-12 I think I could get the 2 lines in the graph to match up almost identical. What you see now is the result of making sure that any eq that is done to 1 set of subs (I have 2 different sets of subs up front) is done to all sets of subs including the mbm-12.
post #12502 of 18424
Oh, BTW I heard years ago when I was trying out 6.1 (before 7.1 existed) that having a speaker directly behind you was a waste because when we hear sounds directly behind us we sometimes actually perceive it as coming from in front of us. That must be the case with the mbm-12 sitting right behind. me.
post #12503 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Nate, have you seen this thread? http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488059/your-home-theater-ulf-score#post_23676011
Not that it's scientific at all obviously but I'm curious how your room would compare. I'm thinking you would have the lowest (which means best) score, if not then real close.


I mean, seriously.... 132 db's at 8 f'ing hz with less than 1% distortion? 8 21" subs and a G-horn? eek.gifeek.gif

Like Archaea was saying, we have experienced just under 140 db's but I guarantee it wasn't at 20hz!!

Inviting critism by posting there with 140+ dB measurements. Just a guess, but people won't believe you. I most certainly do though biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Carp - I also have much better luck with smooth response in the 80-120 range using a higher crossover. My U215's play down to ~20-25hz (-3db) or so in my room, but the best integration seems to be when crossing them a bit higher at 100-120hz. I actually haven't tried 150 yet but I very much enjoyed the same "tight/clean" bass you also experienced with music with those settings. The nice benefit of running a slew of 18" sealed subs is that they typically have clean/flat output to 150-200hz and beyond.

For sure! I have found the lowest XO that I enjoy for music is 100hz, and often if I move higher I can cut the overall sub boost significantly and still get a killer sound gaining that extra midbass.


Coolgeek - You can certainly benefit from raising your XO point on your Noesis up to to 150hz like carp. I would give it a try and then see if you get some of that "slam" you say you are missing.
post #12504 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Inviting critism by posting there with 140+ dB measurements. Just a guess, but people won't believe you. I most certainly do though biggrin.gif
For sure! I have found the lowest XO that I enjoy for music is 100hz, and often if I move higher I can cut the overall sub boost significantly and still get a killer sound gaining that extra midbass.


Coolgeek - You can certainly benefit from raising your XO point on your Noesis up to to 150hz like carp. I would give it a try and then see if you get some of that "slam" you say you are missing.

I will certainly try that once I get an avr that allows me to set 150hz or more... My current avr only goes to 120hz max... mad.gif
post #12505 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Inviting critism by posting there with 140+ dB measurements. Just a guess, but people won't believe you. I most certainly do though biggrin.gif
For sure! I have found the lowest XO that I enjoy for music is 100hz, and often if I move higher I can cut the overall sub boost significantly and still get a killer sound gaining that extra midbass.


Coolgeek - You can certainly benefit from raising your XO point on your Noesis up to to 150hz like carp. I would give it a try and then see if you get some of that "slam" you say you are missing.

8 21's? How big the room as that will matter. The GH added will give a great 16hz score no doubt. JapanDave has 8 RE XXX with 104 liters of displacement in a 2000 cubic foot room. The FTW-21 has 11 liters each so shy of the RE XXX. So 104 liters vs 88 liters at 10hz, the room will matter.
post #12506 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Thanks for the advice.. However, since the Noesis is already crossed over within itself I don't see how I can give it more midbass...


I assume I could do it if I had my mains hooked up to a minidsp. I could just eq the midbass hot on a house curve like I've done with the subs.

Maybe I'll try it sometime and see what i think.
post #12507 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

8 21's? How big the room as that will matter. The GH added will give a great 16hz score no doubt. JapanDave has 8 RE XXX with 104 liters of displacement in a 2000 cubic foot room. The FTW-21 has 11 liters each so shy of the RE XXX. So 104 liters vs 88 liters at 10hz, the room will matter.

8 x 21's, 4 x 18's in an IB plus the G-horn. Everything at once. The room is 12 x 20 x 8.
post #12508 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

8 x 21's, 4 x 18's in an IB plus the G-horn. Everything at once. The room is 12 x 20 x 8.

4x18's as well? Nice! Wait which 18's, I will do this for you. 1920 cubic foot room should do it and yes, based on that 140 dBs should be doable. I will do it for you!
post #12509 of 18424
OK, I looked up your profile and I see you UXL-18's too. So I did your score for you in your 1920 cubic foot room. You ready!

86
post #12510 of 18424
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

OK, I looked up your profile and I see you UXL-18's too. So I did your score for you in your 1920 cubic foot room. You ready!

86


We have a new leader!!!

MK, you should give this info to Dom to he can add Nate to the (top of) list. smile.gif
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Official JTR speaker thread