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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 519

post #15541 of 18433
Question........

What price I should expect to sell a 5-6 month old S2 for?

Thanks......
post #15542 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Honestly I expected them to sound slightly different. Especially the $20 t-amp. And in sighted tests before I'd done in my own room I'd thought I wasn't a big fan of the Behringer DSP 3000 amp for use on mains either - I thought it was a bit less clear, more tinny, and whatever, but when I didn't know what was playing and I had the ability to swap out level matched amps with the quick flick of a light switch ---- no matter how many times I switched back and forth, and regardless of media playing I couldn't tell the difference.

None of those amps are 'hi-fi' but based on the results we encountered that they all sounded identical, unless an amp specifically and intentionally colors the sound with a house flavor of EQ --- then the differences are all in our head likely based on bias we ourselves are unaware of possessing --- at least that's my take at this junction. I think the KC guys plan to repeat the test with some higher quality amps at some point (the highest quality amps we had were the Emotiva XPA-2, XPA-3, EP4000, iNuke DSP 3000, Crown XLS-202, and the couple different AVRs. The East coast guys with Gorilla83 are going to do a similar test with some of their gear as well at some point in the future.

Basically the same view I was saying. Slightly diff...
post #15543 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by subbass View Post

Hi Carp,

Well I do not mind Archaea's reply to be honest, would have not been my style of replying, but who cares.

Well I indeed experienced difference between power amps especially on mid / high PA cabinets so I do not agree, but that is my opinion, the experience I have made.
Some years ago I did sell amps and some "little" companies that produced their own speaker systems did buy them because they did hear a difference in a positive way.

I did listen to the Inuke 3000, a bit too harsh fo me but if people like them it is fine with me.

What kind of amps does JTR prefer ?

That you can play stuff loud with efficient speakers is nothing "special",


A few weeks leading up to the GTG I was using an amp instead of the avr and I was completely sure I was hearing a difference, even at lower volumes. I was really hoping to hear differences between the amps at the GTG (ha, and at first we did but found out Audyssey was to blame) because for some weird reason I like the idea of amps sounding different. It would be fun to experiment and find the amp that I liked best with my speakers and i like buying new toys. Unfortunately I found that I could hear no difference whatsoever between my avr, the amp I had been using, or any of the others.

If we did something wrong or there really are amps out there that will sound different I'm completely open to that idea, in fact I prefer that.
post #15544 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

I have no experience with Anthem so I am not trying to imply they are a bad product, but if we assume that the Gunner969 is correct (which he may be. Again I have no direct knowledge of Anthem products.), then this would reinforce my view that professional reviews, often can not be trusted. This is because, if reviewers give a product a bad review, they will not get more products to evaluate, so there is a strong motivation to make even bad products sound good in their write ups or they will be out of a job.

Disclaimer: The above statement is a generalization, not meant to apply to any particular reviewer or product, just an observation on the conflicts inherent in producing professional reviews of AV gear.

His findings go against the reviewers AND thousands of posts in the d2 and anthem receivers thread. Obviously every company cannot keep everyone happy, but his post must be taken with a grain of salt especially if both recievers died after a few months. I have owned a 500 for 3 years now and owned an integra before that. ARC makes a world of difference in my untreated living room.
post #15545 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Honestly I expected them to sound slightly different. Especially the $20 t-amp. And in sighted tests before I'd done in my own room I'd thought I wasn't a big fan of the Behringer DSP 3000 amp for use on mains either - I thought it was a bit less clear, more tinny, and whatever, but when I didn't know what was playing and I had the ability to swap out level matched amps with the quick flick of a light switch ---- no matter how many times I switched back and forth, and regardless of media playing I couldn't tell the difference.

None of those amps are 'hi-fi' but based on the results we encountered that they all sounded identical, unless an amp specifically and intentionally colors the sound with a house flavor of EQ --- then the differences are all in our head likely based on bias we ourselves are unaware of possessing --- at least that's my take at this junction. I think the KC guys plan to repeat the test with some higher quality amps at some point (the highest quality amps we had were the Emotiva XPA-2, XPA-3, EP4000, iNuke DSP 3000, Crown XLS-202, and the couple different AVRs. The East coast guys with Gorilla83 are going to do a similar test with some of their gear as well at some point in the future.[/quote

I am not that familiar with amps in this price region to be honest.
I also believe that any pre-stage will influence the sound in the end more than the power amp will do..

In the past we did compare quite some amps, level matched and limited before actual and measured clipping.
Staring at the light going on does not make much sense, cause some amps already clip before the light goes on and other amps still have 3db left.
Amps like for example Crown XTI4000, early Powersoft amps always sounded a bit harsh to me when compared, did not like them.

Last amp test we did was PKNC XD4000, China 3RU, 3 step class H, a real Lab13000 as well as a Lab14000 clone (APB audio).
post #15546 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Question........

What price I should expect to sell a 5-6 month old S2 for?

Thanks......

Well considering that the Cap S2 had a $300 price increase as of Jan 1st, I honestly don't you'd lose that much at all.
Are you going all DIY now?
post #15547 of 18433
I don't trust any/all reviews of anything in mags/net about audio, I don't trust any manufacturer claiming anything, nothing. IMO, it really is a total snake oil industry. Speakers, cables, amps... all of it.

An amp that sounds very different from another is a broken amp, all it should do is amplify the signal, thats it. They "shouldn't" sound different and they ones that possibly do? they are broken designs.

I'm 100% with Carp and Archaea. Having had over 40 different amps counting my pro and HT version, I've yet to hear any significant difference between any of them and any level other than clipping.
I honestly do think people that hear huge differences are nuts, I completely write them off and pretty much would never take their advise on anything (sorry lol) Slight differences? Sure it's possible, I don't personally hear any, so some guy on the internet isn't going to "convince me" that they do, thats for sure. Same goes the other way.
There are certain people on AVS that I respect their info and input and would take their advice in a heartbeat, then there are others that I wouldn't take their advise on dental floss, since I think they are tools (though not many in this thread, this is a great bunch of guys and the only thread on the internet that isn't full of BS biggrin.gif)

It's a fun hobby, we all like to try out new stuff but too many people get caught up in audio. Super flat response's, graph this, graph that. Blah. It's fun to tweak but in the end, isn't it your own personal enjoyment that you really care about? I setup my system how I want it to sound, whether that means someone agrees with me or not makes no difference. How many times has someone said " thats not the way the director intended it to be heard" LOL, gimme a break, who the hell case what some director thinks, I bought the movie, and I'm gonna run my subs 15dB hot, so get outta my way, cause here comes the bass!!!

Rant over tongue.gif
post #15548 of 18433
That's it right there. an amp is supposed to receive the signal, amplify said signal, and send it back out neutral with no color. There should be no sound difference when done correctly unless that amp is specifically designed to color the sound. A lot of lower amps overate or misrepresent the rated watts so they clip which is why they sound harsh. By the time clip lights come on its to late that amp is distorting. Its like a radar detector in a car, when it goes off you have been caught. The longer an amp can hold it watts the better quality it is. You need enough total watts to create head room so it never has to clip. No more No less.

I have just watched Through the Never and am getting ready to watch it again. By the time Ride the Lighting came on I was into it and willing to overlook that Grammy performance. A couple comments

1 Since it is a movie they should have gotten someone Taller and a Whole lot less Ugly to play Lars part.

2 Can someone Please get James a drink?!!!

This Blu-ray is the reason I enjoy my JTR system so much. Highly dynamic Live sound with a Vulgar Display of Power.

Chris
post #15549 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

That is pretty strange considering that most pro reviews have the Anthem MRX line as one of the best sounding AVR's for Home Theater. Most of the reviews are the same as to the Anthem is a no frills AVR, but packs big sound and amazing surround sound that rivals most of the competition on this level. There is also allot of love for ARC. I am certainly not saying you are wrong, but wonderig if someone was wrong or not set up right.

Here are a few

Link
http://www.hifihouse.com/blog/2014/01/09/anthem-mrx-710-av-receiver/

Link
http://www.whathifi.com/review/anthem-mrx-700

Link
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/anthem-mrx-300-av-receiver

Link
http://hometheaterreview.com/anthem-mrx-710-av-receiver/

Those reviews are exactly why I bought the two anthems.... I'm just glad I was able to get my money back and move on.
post #15550 of 18433
]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASU View Post

His findings go against the reviewers AND thousands of posts in the d2 and anthem receivers thread. Obviously every company cannot keep everyone happy, but his post must be taken with a grain of salt especially if both recievers died after a few months. I have owned a 500 for 3 years now and owned an integra before that. ARC makes a world of difference in my untreated living room.

Check out the user comments at the bottom of this review: http://hometheaterreview.com/anthem-mrx-710-av-receiver/

My 700 suffered from the same static issues the second commenter talks about.
post #15551 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

I don't trust any/all reviews of anything in mags/net about audio, I don't trust any manufacturer claiming anything, nothing. IMO, it really is a total snake oil industry. Speakers, cables, amps... all of it.

An amp that sounds very different from another is a broken amp, all it should do is amplify the signal, thats it. They "shouldn't" sound different and they ones that possibly do? they are broken designs.

I'm 100% with Carp and Archaea. Having had over 40 different amps counting my pro and HT version, I've yet to hear any significant difference between any of them and any level other than clipping.
I honestly do think people that hear huge differences are nuts, I completely write them off and pretty much would never take their advise on anything (sorry lol) Slight differences? Sure it's possible, I don't personally hear any, so some guy on the internet isn't going to "convince me" that they do, thats for sure. Same goes the other way.
There are certain people on AVS that I respect their info and input and would take their advice in a heartbeat, then there are others that I wouldn't take their advise on dental floss, since I think they are tools (though not many in this thread, this is a great bunch of guys and the only thread on the internet that isn't full of BS biggrin.gif)

It's a fun hobby, we all like to try out new stuff but too many people get caught up in audio. Super flat response's, graph this, graph that. Blah. It's fun to tweak but in the end, isn't it your own personal enjoyment that you really care about? I setup my system how I want it to sound, whether that means someone agrees with me or not makes no difference. How many times has someone said " thats not the way the director intended it to be heard" LOL, gimme a break, who the hell case what some director thinks, I bought the movie, and I'm gonna run my subs 15dB hot, so get outta my way, cause here comes the bass!!!

Rant over tongue.gif

Very well said. I didn't try and side with the snake oil side by my earlier comment. Perhaps I just need more experience to truly know for myself. As far as "How the director intended" I certainly sway far from. I think my two submersives, strategically measured to best placement raw then EQ added, are somewhere around 10-12db hot after my Open DRC unit and AVR sub trim bumped. I haven't cared too much to know exactly as I am waiting to recalibrate after my speakers arrive someday...
post #15552 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Question........

What price I should expect to sell a 5-6 month old S2 for?

Thanks......

5% off retail and buyer doesn't even have to wait 6-8 weeks for build.
post #15553 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Very well said. I didn't try and side with the snake oil side by my earlier comment. Perhaps I just need more experience to truly know for myself. As far as "How the director intended" I certainly sway far from. I think my two submersives, strategically measured to best placement raw then EQ added, are somewhere around 10-12db hot after my Open DRC unit and AVR sub trim bumped. I haven't cared too much to know exactly as I am waiting to recalibrate after my speakers arrive someday...

The post wasn't directed at anyone on this thread at all, in fact, I'd say that this IS the best bunch of guys on the entire internet lol. After I read it again it may have come off that way but it was just a generalization of all threads that end up with the same argument.
Cable burn-in and speaker burn-in that ALWAYS results in a better sounding speaker. Magic interconnects, digital connectors that make the 1's and 0's even straighter and more round, thus resulting in amazing sound like a veil had been lifted, super high end speakers that use run of the mill drivers and a basic xover with no real exotic design, put into a nice cab and thus, the best sounding speaker for 2 x 3 times it's price, audio snake oil garbage that is shoved down out throats at every turn. There will always be the 2 sides of audio, the audiofools that think they have the audio game solved and the guys who just want to enjoy what they have.
We all like changing out gear with the the hopes that we will get every possible bit of performance possible, thats the best part of the hobby but the smart guys are doing room treatments, buying different speakers, placement etc to get the most change. I mean, the only ever night and day difference I've personally had in audio has to do with speakers and subs and room treatments, they will always be the sweet spot in the audio game because there can be drastic differences between them. I personally find bass to be the most exciting part of audio, the feeling it gives you is a one of a kind thing and for me, it's like a drug, I want more and more and more...... some may say I boarder on being basstarded but the hell with them, I'd dare them to come into my room to see if I can make them poop their pants biggrin.gif
post #15554 of 18433
Do different brands of xlr cable make a difference? I'm thinking of getting these: http://www.cablesalescanada.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=228_246_273_276&products_id=1397
post #15555 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Question........

What price I should expect to sell a 5-6 month old S2 for?

Thanks......

5% off retail and buyer doesn't even have to wait 6-8 weeks for build.

I doubt that anyone will buy a used sub if the price difference is only 5 percent. I have seen used S2s for sale in 2300-2500 range on agon.
post #15556 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner969 View Post


The anthems simply had no life to them... No bass... No energy... Nothing. I had run ARC myself and even got the pros at the shop run it as well, but still the sound was junk. The store I bought them from no longer carries anthem even though they like to support Canadian companies because of quality issues with the anthems... So beware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner969 View Post

]
Check out the user comments at the bottom of this review: http://hometheaterreview.com/anthem-mrx-710-av-receiver/

My 700 suffered from the same static issues the second commenter talks about.

I was not discounting the fact that you got a bad unit and had issues with it. But you make a broad statement about how the anthem receivers sound bad, and to beware, when this is not what the consensus of reviewers and owners in other threads have said.
post #15557 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

A few weeks leading up to the GTG I was using an amp instead of the avr and I was completely sure I was hearing a difference, even at lower volumes. I was really hoping to hear differences between the amps at the GTG (ha, and at first we did but found out Audyssey was to blame) because for some weird reason I like the idea of amps sounding different. It would be fun to experiment and find the amp that I liked best with my speakers and i like buying new toys. Unfortunately I found that I could hear no difference whatsoever between my avr, the amp I had been using, or any of the others.

If we did something wrong or there really are amps out there that will sound different I'm completely open to that idea, in fact I prefer that.

Using Nathan's speaker switcher (the one we brought to Gorilla's GTG) I took some measurements of my Klipsch RF-7's running full range.

Black line is with my Clone.

Green line is with the Pioneer SC-57 AVR only.

The difference in response is attributed me shifting positions when running the sweeps. . Other than that, I couldn't tell a difference between AVR and AMP when running these sweeps at stupid levels...then playing music and movies at the same stupid levels...just to do it.



Since kick-off isn't until 6:30pm tomorrow, I'm going to see if I can sneak out of here in the AM and bring my SC-57 and Clone over to Asim's to play for a few hours..

I'll be sure to leave the remote in his hands. . . . . .
post #15558 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASU View Post


I was not discounting the fact that you got a bad unit and had issues with it. But you make a broad statement about how the anthem receivers sound bad, and to beware, when this is not what the consensus of reviewers and owners in other threads have said.

I'm providing a balanced view. It's easy to see there are certain brands that get great pro reviews for every single piece of equipment they put out.

IIRC people were complaining about the static issue in the forums. anthem stopped accepting RMAs after a while according to my dealer.
post #15559 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

A few weeks leading up to the GTG I was using an amp instead of the avr and I was completely sure I was hearing a difference, even at lower volumes. I was really hoping to hear differences between the amps at the GTG (ha, and at first we did but found out Audyssey was to blame) because for some weird reason I like the idea of amps sounding different. It would be fun to experiment and find the amp that I liked best with my speakers and i like buying new toys. Unfortunately I found that I could hear no difference whatsoever between my avr, the amp I had been using, or any of the others.

If we did something wrong or there really are amps out there that will sound different I'm completely open to that idea, in fact I prefer that.

Using Nathan's speaker switcher (the one we brought to Gorilla's GTG) I took some measurements of my Klipsch RF-7's running full range.

Black line is with my Clone.

Green line is with the Pioneer SC-57 AVR only.

The difference in response is attributed me shifting positions when running the sweeps. . Other than that, I couldn't tell a difference between AVR and AMP when running these sweeps at stupid levels...then playing music and movies at the same stupid levels...just to do it.



Since kick-off isn't until 6:30pm tomorrow, I'm going to see if I can sneak out of here in the AM and bring my SC-57 and Clone over to Asim's to play for a few hours..

I'll be sure to leave the remote in his hands. . . . . .

Cool, use mic stand, and make sure you are well behind the Mic and out of the sound field for the measurements. It's interesting to see how much the real-time FR capture changes by moving your body or the Mic slightly or moving a chair back or any change.
post #15560 of 18433
Gunner
Since you spent your money on the product and had a problem with 2 different models you are completely entitled to have a negative opinion. Your Negative opinion is just as Valid as any other owners Positive opinion. It is also just as welcome. smile.gif

I guarantee all the positive reviews does not make your bad experience feel any better. All owners first hand personal experience with the products they own are welcome, Positive or Negative.

Saturday night posts sometimes bring out the Froggy side of people.smile.gif

Chris
post #15561 of 18433
Comparisons to other amps on the market must be done carefully since many amps have specs that are uhhh optimistic at best. Especially at low frequencies, some amps just don't hold up. I have benchmarked my amps against the real Lab Gruppen FP14000 and the Pascal Xpro "2400W" amps used by FW. Here is what I measured.

Pascal Xpro3 CH1 only 120VAC mains
1400W/4 1KHz 1% for 2 seconds, dropping to 223W after that
730W/4 40Hz 1% for 10 seconds dropping to 223W after that. Lower frequencies are even worse.

Lab Gruppen FP14000 120VAC mains
3000W/4 for 200 milliseconds dropping to 1500W/4.
4800W/2 for 80 milliseconds dropping to 1500W/2
Yes that's right. Milliseconds. Thousandths of a second.

SpeakerPower SP1-4000 120VAC mains
2400W/4 40Hz 1% indefinitely
4000W/2 40Hz for 4 seconds, dropping to 2000W/2

As you can see, almost all amps these days have a short term power which finds its way onto the spec sheet, and a long term power that you can't find anywhere. This is a valid design strategy, but any burst power spec shorter than 50ms at 40 Hz (2 cycles, sounds like a kick drum thump) is useless IMHO.

Thank you for your interest. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Brian Oppegaard
President
SpeakerPower Inc.


I'm posting the above as an example of what to look for when purchasing an amp. JTR uses these amps in subs and Seaton uses them in both speakers and subs. The longer the amp can produce the rated amount of watts the better quality it is and will prevent clipping. Clipping is why an amp can seem to sound different. It also causes fatigue due to sounding harsh. Cheap amps only hold rated watts for a few Milliseconds.

Chris
Edited by countryWV - 2/2/14 at 8:16am
post #15562 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Well considering that the Cap S2 had a $300 price increase as of Jan 1st, I honestly don't you'd lose that much at all.
Are you going all DIY now?

Yes.........love the S2 but am worried about integrating with different drivers. Was thinking of going four SI-24's at 1/4 space at front and back wall which I can't do with S2........well, unless I purchase three more S2's which Is close to insanity, biggrin.gif

Evidently, the SI-24 needs much more than 10 cubes in sealed format.......more like 30 cf!eek.gif

Looks like back to original plan which I should have stuck to my guns with.........four LMS-U's.........or a miracle happens and can get back in UXL group buy. redface.gif
post #15563 of 18433
Man...those SpeakerPower amps are something else!
post #15564 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Comparisons to other amps on the market must be done carefully since many amps have specs that are uhhh optimistic at best. Especially at low frequencies, some amps just don't hold up.



When looking to purchase an amp the above is a good example of what should be the most important aspect. Not how many watts but how long it can hold the watts.

Chris

Speakerpower amps are great! Up until a year and one-half ago, the amps were by far the best bang for the buck product for plate amps! Since then, prices have more than doubled to protect manufacturers which sucks! I inquired six months ago about purchasing four amps figuring they were still $1200 each without DSP.............well, there're close to $2600 each now!!eek.gif

Guess manufacturers complained enough to out price us DIY'ers! biggrin.gif

BTW "Big Country"..................to help you save face and not pick a loser once again........ Calibrate your system for this:




Will improve your system's sound in a big way................tongue.gif
post #15565 of 18433
I pick losers all the time. I'm a Cleveland Browns / Cincinnati Bengals fan. I have been used to cheering for Losers since the day I was born. I consider it to be an exercise in character building. How's that for optimism.smile.gif

Although Marshawn Lynch is the best running back in the NFL, the Denver Broncos are going to hand Seattle their A$$'s today. Richard Sherman and his Big Arrogant Mouth BOOOOOO!!!!!. biggrin.gif

If you are still interested in Speakerpower amps give Jeff or Mark Seaton a call. wink.gif

Chris
Edited by countryWV - 2/2/14 at 8:04am
post #15566 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

I pick losers all the time. I'm a Cleveland Browns / Cincinnati Bengals fan. I have been used to cheering for Losers since the day I was born. I consider it to be an exercise in character building. How's that for optimism.smile.gif

Although Marshawn Lynch is the best running back in the NFL, the Denver Broncos are going to hand Seattle their A$$'s today. Richard Sherman and his Big Arrogant Mouth BOOOOOO!!!!!. biggrin.gif

If you are still interested in Speakerpower amps give Jeff or Mark Seaton a call. wink.gif

Chris

Marshawn Lynch is not the best running back in the NFL lol. He didn't even win the rushing title so he is not the real McCoy! biggrin.gif
post #15567 of 18433
Common guys, that speaker power test was posted by the Speaker power owner Brian (who is a complete tool BTW)...... The clones amps were tested already and comfirmed his numbers were bullsh%$. One of the guys on the DIY thread tested them.

Although speaker power amps are great, they no longer offer their amps to direct to customers, they went back to OEM.
post #15568 of 18433
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Common guys, that speaker power test was posted by the Speaker power owner Brian (who is a complete tool BTW)...... The clones amps were tested already and comfirmed his numbers were bullsh%$. One of the guys on the DIY thread tested them.

Although speaker power amps are great, they no longer offer their amps to direct to customers, they went back to OEM.

What were the numbers that they got off of the bench test?
post #15569 of 18433
I'm looking right now.... can't remember what thread it was on lol they tested the clone and the ipr2 7500
post #15570 of 18433
Best running back? Our guy will never get recognition since were not on a coast or Dallas/Green Bay/Chicago etc.


http://voices.yahoo.com/running-backs-highest-yards-per-carry-averages-12145810.html?cat=37



Kind of like Will Shields would already be in the Hall of Fame if he had the exact same career for the Giants, Redskins, Jets, Eagles, Cowboys, Packers, Bears, etc. etc.

12 pro bowls IN A ROW. I'd like to know any player in NFL history that has done that and not been a first ballot (or even second ballot - Will didn't get in this year either) hall of famer. I'm not saying I know for sure that it's happened before, but I'd be surprised.
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