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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 554

post #16591 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Heights are a waste and more value and performance will be achieved through second sub, quality surrounds, room treatments, etc. Strong 5.2 or 7.2.

heights sound awesome in my room, have you tried heights with speakers with wide dispersion patterns. such as the single 8's etc.

heights are not a waste for someone looking to expand their already awesome system.

My experience was that heights sounded awesome, until I turned them off and the speakers still sounded awesome and I didn't even recognize they were turned off. tongue.gif

wides seemed to make slightly more actual appreciable difference in soundstage.
post #16592 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

IREEEEENE...

granted that its not the best example, but i found the heights effect to really stand out with the helicopter landings and all!

I was doing some a/b testing with a set of height speakers on the incredible hulk. I thought man this sounds awesome with heights. You can hear the helicopters above the screen. I turned off the height channels. Man this sounds awesome withotu height channels - you can hear the helicopter above the screen. smile.gif

I might have something to do with my room only being 7 foot tall - but the reality was I couldn't tell when they were on or off in my room. eek.gif At least as Audyssey configured them in my particular room.
post #16593 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

My experience was that heights sounded awesome, until I turned them off and the speakers still sounded awesome and I didn't even recognize they were turned off. tongue.gif

wides seemed to make slightly more actual appreciable difference in soundstage.

How do you feel about a narrow room at 11 feet, bringing the wides 5 feet or so in front of the mains and mounted high near the ceiling firing down a shade and angled towards the MLP? Think the wide scenario would still work out assuming the distance settings were accounted for? I have been thinking about this, as the rears are so far away from me, Yes they still are a nice effect, but anyone in the rear of the room by the third row bar just gets blasted out as I have them calibrated for the front row at 75dB's. I honestly would move the side surrounds back a shade to split the difference between the rows and don't feel that would be a detriment to either, and try out wides. I really want to hear a theater with them incorporated before I give it a shot though.
post #16594 of 18548
So, I can't really afford both JTR speakers and a JTR sub right off the bat.

I'd like to get started in JTR gear though.

Would any JTR speakers sound decent on their own, in the several months it would take me to save up for a sub?
post #16595 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post

So, I can't really afford both JTR speakers and a JTR sub right off the bat.

I'd like to get started in JTR gear though.

Would any JTR speakers sound decent on their own, in the several months it would take me to save up for a sub?


When I run my speakers full range (not often, just to experiment) the sound is fantastic but in my room I'm only flat to around 55hz so you miss out on so much bass. When I turn the subs on it's so much better obviously.


What about 2 speakers and a sub and buy the rest later? I think that's what I would do if I were in your situation.
post #16596 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

When I run my speakers full range (not often, just to experiment) the sound is fantastic but in my room I'm only flat to around 55hz so you miss out on so much bass. When I turn the subs on it's so much better obviously.



What about 2 speakers and a sub and buy the rest later? I think that's what I would do if I were in your situation.


Well, my current budget is about $4000. I didn't assume I could egt any decent 2 speakers plus a decent sub for that. Hence, why I wanted just 2 good speakers to start with.
post #16597 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post

So, I can't really afford both JTR speakers and a JTR sub right off the bat.

I'd like to get started in JTR gear though.

Would any JTR speakers sound decent on their own, in the several months it would take me to save up for a sub?


Also, you could buy a couple Dayton 18" drivers for 250 a piece, 2 flat packs from diysoundgroup.com for around 125 a piece last I checked, and then an inuke 3000 dsp currently on sale for 279 shipped. You would have more output than a Cap S1 and same sound quality for around 1000 which is less than half the price.
post #16598 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post

Well, my current budget is about $4000. I didn't assume I could egt any decent 2 speakers plus a decent sub for that. Hence, why I wanted just 2 good speakers to start with.


With 4 grand I would buy 2 228's: 2600 + shipping
2 Dayton's with flat packs and inuke 3000: 1000 ish

Then I would save up for a center.

Then save up for surrounds.
post #16599 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post

Well, my current budget is about $4000. I didn't assume I could egt any decent 2 speakers plus a decent sub for that. Hence, why I wanted just 2 good speakers to start with.

Carp already gave some great suggestions, including the DIY route...if you have the time and motivation.

Based on a budget of around $4,000, I will add that you could just go for the new 210RT. Looks like a pair of those will have plenty of bass...and you could always add a pair of subs later if you want more. Then save up for a 228 or 8 for center, and two 8LP surrounds...but all depends on your budget. Years ago, I used to use just 2 two-way Cerwin Vegas and they rocked movies, even with a missing a center...was like a TV with really huge speakers.
post #16600 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Carp already gave some great suggestions, including the DIY route...if you have the time and motivation.

Based on a budget of around $4,000, I will add that you could just go for the new 210RT. Looks like a pair of those will have plenty of bass...and you could always add a pair of subs later if you want more. Then save up for a 228 or 8 for center, and two 8LP surrounds...but all depends on your budget. Years ago, I used to use just 2 two-way Cerwin Vegas and they rocked movies, even with a missing a center...was like a TV with really huge speakers.

Ha,

I forgot all about the new designs. Do we know how much the 210's cost and how low the freq response is?
post #16601 of 18548
So tonight Austin came over and we moved the LR 212s a couple of inches away from side walls...And we 'extra' toe'd-in where each speaker is angled beyond the MLP to the next seat over on each side, if that makes sense. Result I'm hearing is the vocalist is still in the center, but now has moved from in front of the center speaker and forward about 3-4 feet into the center of the room. As Borat would exclaim, I like.

As expected with the 212, my ratio is officially now 80/20, music/movies. And volume up is constantly pressed with each passing track. If you have either 228/212, go play Ray LaMontagne's "Truly, Madly, Deeply" at -20 to -10 right now and tell me what your thoughts are...
Edited by asoofi1 - 2/21/14 at 7:58pm
post #16602 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Ha,

I forgot all about the new designs. Do we know how much the 210's cost and how low the freq response is?

Hmm...just revisited Jeff's initial post about the 210/215...Seems his plan for the 210RT is down to 38Hz...
http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/jtr-noesis-floor-standing-full-range-speakers-6631501

So based on this, definitely not enough lows. Back to other options...
post #16603 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

So tonight Austin came over and we moved the LR 212s a couple of inches away from side walls...And we 'extra' toe'd-in where each speaker is angled beyond the MLP to the next seat over on each side, if that makes sense. Result I'm hearing is the vocalist is still in the center, but now has moved from in front of the center speaker and forward about 3-4 feet into the center of the room. As Borat would exclaim, I like.

As expected with the 212, my ratio is officially now 80/20, music/movies. And volume up is constantly pressed with each passing track. If you have either 228/212, go play Ray LaMontagne's "Truly, Madly, Deeply" at -20 to -10 right now and tell me what your thoughts are...

I know most people say to toe the 212 in a lot. Jeff even has a visual diagram of doing that on his website. For my room layout and based on my tinkering around with toeing in a little or a lot...I actually ended preferring just a little toe in. Some of it is room acoustics and some of it is personal preference and a little toe in is what I ended liking better for my room.

Also, I hear all these comments about listening to more and more music once someone switches to the 212s. I have been listening to more blu ray concerts but still don't find myself listening to a lot of 2 ch music. On the blu ray concerts I switch between the 5.1/7/1 mix and the 2 channel track and always find myself going back to the 5.1/7/1 track. Still mostly movies, video games and blu ray concerts. I think I am just an HT guy at heart.
post #16604 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

So tonight Austin came over and we moved the LR 212s a couple of inches away from side walls...And we 'extra' toe'd-in where each speaker is angled beyond the MLP to the next seat over on each side, if that makes sense. Result I'm hearing is the vocalist is still in the center, but now has moved from in front of the center speaker and forward about 3-4 feet into the center of the room. As Borat would exclaim, I like.

Vocalist = X
Happy JTR Owner = :-)
|
| L C R |
| |
| X |
| |
| |
| :-) |
As expected with the 212, my ratio is officially now 80/20, music/movies. And volume up is constantly pressed with each passing track. If you have either 228/212, go play Ray LaMontagne's "Truly, Madly, Deeply" at -20 to -10 right now and tell me what your thoughts are...


Try this. Move your seat and/or the speakers so that they are further apart than you are from the speakers. Mine are 2 feet wider than my head is from each speaker and the soundstage is better this way. I don't know if I've posted this in this thread, if so sorry for the repeat, but I've tried so many different placements since November 2012 and I keep coming back to this.
post #16605 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I know most people say to toe the 212 in a lot. Jeff even has a visual diagram of doing that on his website. For my room layout and based on my tinkering around with toeing in a little or a lot...I actually ended preferring just a little toe in. Some of it is room acoustics and some of it is personal preference and a little toe in is what I ended liking better for my room.

Also, I hear all these comments about listening to more and more music once someone switches to the 212s. I have been listening to more blu ray concerts but still don't find myself listening to a lot of 2 ch music. On the blu ray concerts I switch between the 5.1/7/1 mix and the 2 channel track and always find myself going back to the 5.1/7/1 track. Still mostly movies, video games and blu ray concerts. I think I am just an HT guy at heart.

I had Nyal Mellor of Acoustic Frontiers design my baffle wall with 212's and he recommended a 20 degree toe-in within my room. More details can be found on post #317. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1498786/the-savoy/300_100#post_24392122
post #16606 of 18548
I toe them in so that they would intersect right behind me which sounds close to Nyal's recommendation. The extreme toe in does give a larger sweet spot but the exact center, which is where I sit, I feel the clarity isn't quite as good. Damn close, but not quite.
post #16607 of 18548
I am probably in the same ballpark of 20 degrees just from eyeballing the toe in angle. I tried closer to 45 degrees and while the sweet spot might have been bigger, I felt like the soundstage wasn't as big overall. Everyone has their own preferences and for me it is a wide sound stage and "airy" sound that I prefer. Crap...now I am starting to sound like a 2 channel geek writing for a magazine smile.gif
post #16608 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Try this. Move your seat and/or the speakers so that they are further apart than you are from the speakers. Mine are 2 feet wider than my head is from each speaker and the soundstage is better this way. I don't know if I've posted this in this thread, if so sorry for the repeat, but I've tried so many different placements since November 2012 and I keep coming back to this.

Man, you just made me get up and measure tongue.gif

My head is about 16 feet from each speaker, about a foot from back wall. The LR are 13 feet apart from each other and against each respective side wall then toe'd-in.
Edited by asoofi1 - 2/21/14 at 8:33pm
post #16609 of 18548
2 questions:


  1. How low do the 212s play? Would they suffice to stand alone?
  2. What is the major difference in the new 210s vs the older 212s?
post #16610 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post

2 questions:


  1. How low do the 212s play? Would they suffice to stand alone?
  2. What is the major difference in the new 210s vs the older 212s?

212HT's are only designed to play down to 55-60hz, they were never designed to be used as a full range speaker. The new 210RT's have been designed to play down to 38hz so they could be used to play full range with music. You'd still most likely still have to use a sub with them for movie use.
post #16611 of 18548
The new 210Ts look remarkably like the Klipsch RF-7iis that I sold.... lol. Both in terms of size, layout, and types of drivers.

Noesis 210t = +/-3db 38hz-24khz, 97db/1w, 2x 10" woofers, 12.25" wide, 43" tall, 16.5" deep. 210s on left: http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1280433779&postcount=8


Maybe I should get these, and just enjoy the superior quality? (I'm hoping these would beat Klipsch RF-7s, right?)
post #16612 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post

The new 210Ts look remarkably like the Klipsch RF-7iis that I sold.... lol. Both in terms of size, layout, and types of drivers.

Noesis 210t = +/-3db 38hz-24khz, 97db/1w, 2x 10" woofers, 12.25" wide, 43" tall, 16.5" deep. 210s on left: http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1280433779&postcount=8


Maybe I should get these, and just enjoy the superior quality? (I'm hoping these would beat Klipsch RF-7s, right?)

I've heard the RF-7's and I'll say the same thing I said to you back before you bought yours, IMHO the 228HT's sound better then the RF-7's.

If you plan of using these speakers for movies you'll still need a capable sub to go with them, so if that's the case IMO you are better off going with the 228HT's over the new 210RT's.

Is 4 grand your max budget? If you're able to stretch it a little I would suggest getting three 228HT's and do a nice little DIY sub.

If they're still available you could grab two SI 18's, they still have some 2ohm versions left, and pick up an iNuke 3000DSP to power them.
post #16613 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

When I run my speakers full range (not often, just to experiment) the sound is fantastic but in my room I'm only flat to around 55hz so you miss out on so much bass. When I turn the subs on it's so much better obviously.



What about 2 speakers and a sub and buy the rest later? I think that's what I would do if I were in your situation.


Well, my current budget is about $4000. I didn't assume I could egt any decent 2 speakers plus a decent sub for that. Hence, why I wanted just 2 good speakers to start with.

What about a pair of Single 8's and a Cap S1 for a $4400 stretch to get kicked off? Those that have heard the Single 8's seem astonished by what they can produce when used as mains.

Then keep an eye on the classifieds for used 212's, T12's etc as fellas may be trading in for the upcoming 215's and 210's. If that works out, shift the Single 8's to surround duty.
post #16614 of 18548
Unfortunately, Jeff seems to be slowly leaving "affordable" territory for some of his lower income base customers. His quality is top notch, his speakers have few peers but if someone only had 4G to spend, they aren't going to get a 5.1 cinema system no matter how you slice it. With klipsch, HSU, SVS, etc you could get there.

Landmonster we told you before JTR is better than Klipsch. JTR uses higher quality drivers and components and there is no middleman. Its a win in every category except perhaps asthetics. I've compared klipsch speakers similar to what you owned to my 228ht directly at scrappydues and both me and the klipsch owner liked the 228ht better. But he had paid half as much for his klipch on the used market and didn't think the 228ht were twice as good so he was still okay with his choice. As I told you last time, you have gotten to the level of dimmenishing returns. I went to the recent home theater heavy hitters meet and nothing there piqued my interest over my 228ht to feel the upgrade cost was worth the small performance delta. Room treatments and bass management systems will be taking my money over future mains upgrades. I think my 228ht LCR will stay for a long time.

Good luck with your research and speaker selection. I hope in the end you find satisfaction.

Knowing that you were displeased with the klipsch rf-7 and probably one hoping for a final landing spot, I'd advise looking at the 212 l/r pair in that budget. Save up for the subs either DIY or JTR.

If you are mostly movies a tri setup of 228ht would be nearly indistinguishable from a 212ht l/c/r. If you are primarily music the 212ht have a bigger (massive) soundstage.
Edited by Archaea - 2/22/14 at 5:06am
post #16615 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Well, I got the email today from Jeff and the 215's are officially ordered. He said the 210's are done as well, just needs to make the xover.
Sweet!!!

Has Jeff mentioned to anyone about a possible 215c (Center Channel) to match the 215t?

I am sure that design is somewhere on the future to do list. smile.gif
Chris
post #16616 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


Sweet!!!

Has Jeff mentioned to anyone about a possible 215c (Center Channel) to match the 215t?

I am sure that design is somewhere on the future to do list. smile.gif
Chris

Chris, over on the JTR website Jeff did mention it over a month ago that here will be some new centers but I have not seen a word about that since. I believe Rob is going with three 215s and I think Nathan is keeping the custom center that he just got to match with his 215s.
post #16617 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Room treatments and bass management systems will be taking my money over future mains upgrades.

+1

Sage advice there, settle on competent mains, and pursue optimization efforts within the interface (the speaker/room interface, ie, placement, adjustment, acoustic treatment).

I recently began going back and reviewing the GTG thread, it moved so fast, much vitally important takeaway info was missed, I'm going to add a follow up.



Regarding JTR gear selection on a budget, etc, heres one perspective;

Starting from scratch, if I had a modest limited budget, and wanted a 5.1 JTR platformed HT system, I'd go for a pair of single 8s, and a quality sub or two that would be the first component(s) to a first rate multi-sub system. I'd employ two individual amp channels with some way of manipulating time delays and slopes (Inuke DSP, or miniDSP), as this is key for ideal blending. I'd also include budget for some simple room treatments, bass traps in the corners as big as aesthetically acceptable, and a single 6" or 8" treatment panel per sidewall, and a pair of 4" ceiling cloud panels spaced off the ceiling another 4".


This ^ would be a nice start, with leverage on performance via acoustics, ... and one could fill in the remaining components as funds allow. I base this on subjective impact, solid LF performance is monumentally huge subjectively, thus much initial effort is placed there ... both gear and acoustics/treatment.

Eventually move the single 8"s to surround duty, and elevate mains performance with Noesis or equivalent. The DIYsoundgroup is a great source for subs, as is PartsExpress with assemble it yourself cabinets, drivers.

Important, some simple measuring gear and the basics of how to use it. Then make all changes via acoustic need.

I think subs are such a big part of the subjective picture, single 8s and a powerful but well executed sub system with focus on acoustics is key, IMO


Best of luck
post #16618 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post


Starting from scratch, if I had a modest limited budget, and wanted a 5.1 JTR platformed HT system, I'd go for a pair of single 8s, and a quality sub or two that would be the first component(s) to a first rate multi-sub system. I'd employ two individual amp channels with some way of manipulating time delays and slopes (Inuke DSP, or miniDSP), as this is key for ideal blending. I'd also include budget for some simple room treatments, bass traps in the corners as big as aesthetically acceptable, and a single 6" or 8" treatment panel per sidewall, and a pair of 4" ceiling cloud panels spaced off the ceiling another 4".

Hey Kevin, 2 questions.


1. Why a single panel per side wall? I have 2 per side wall, 1 for the first reflection of each speaker. I will say that I have found that with the 212's the panel for the reflection from the opposite speaker makes a bigger difference, I guess this make sense the way I have the speakers toed-in??

2. Why 4 inches between the ceiling panel and the ceiling? The reason I ask is that Brian it GIK told me not to have more than 2 inches between my panels and the ceiling. He told me why but I can't remember....

Ok 3 questions: smile.gif

3. My side panels are 3.5 inches. Would going to 6 or 8 inches thick help out in the 100-200 hz range at the main LP possibly?
post #16619 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Chris, over on the JTR website Jeff did mention it over a month ago that here will be some new centers but I have not seen a word about that since. I believe Rob is going with three 215s and I think Nathan is keeping the custom center that he just got to match with his 215s.

Yep (well the Rob part anyway tongue.gif). For a dedicated HT, there simply is no good argument for a horizontal center channel. It is a compromise and as such is less than ideal. If it is a space issue then get Single 8's or 228's or 212LP's or ???.

IMO, the idea that a big plasma and or LCD/LED is the video component in a Home Theater is incorrect. It is a TV in a media room (or a multi use space) with multi channel audio. The term Home Theater should be used to describe a dedicated space with front projection and a big screen (preferably an AT screen smile.gif) with multi-channel audio.

When I first built out my HT the intent was to create a multi-use space with a plasma and FP with powered screen and variable light control. I started a thread in the Dedicated HT Build Thread and was chastised (literally) by some for my non- dedicated HT build and it was suggested that I move along to another Thread. At the time I thought that was narrow minded but as my use and requirements changed I began to see the difference. Yes, I hate to admit it but I am now an HT snob ...tongue.gif
Edited by RMK! - 2/22/14 at 9:16am
post #16620 of 18548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post

Well, my current budget is about $4000. I didn't assume I could egt any decent 2 speakers plus a decent sub for that. Hence, why I wanted just 2 good speakers to start with.
I would go with 3 228's and like carp said do a DIY or look in the classifieds for a cheap sub for the time being.
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