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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 128

post #3811 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post

how hard is it to move the coax to the top on the t8. Got them a month ago and had in mind of keeping the t8's as left and right and now thinkin, going with t12's for the front and moving t8's to the side surrounds but must have the coax on the top do it...can an inexperience person who has never seen the inards of a speaker be able to do it? Thanks

As long as the wires to the CD are long enough to reach the upper position, piece of cake.
post #3812 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post

how hard is it to move the coax to the top on the t8. Got them a month ago and had in mind of keeping the t8's as left and right and now thinkin, going with t12's for the front and moving t8's to the side surrounds but must have the coax on the top do it...can an inexperience person who has never seen the inards of a speaker be able to do it? Thanks

I'm no crossover expert, but I do know that having two drivers stacked on top of each other like that covering the same frequency range is a very bad idea...
post #3813 of 18386
moving the coax will literally take you 3 minutes, if that. It's as simple as simple could possibly be. Take out bolts holding drivers in, unplug both drivers, switch spots, move the wires to the correct position and plug them back in, put bolts back.
post #3814 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

Something came to mind I actually forgot about. you guys using the JTR set-up, what speakers are you using for surrounds? I'm guessing the slanted 8's are intended to be the surround speakers? If I were to do a 7.2 set up, should I get 2 slanted 8's for the sides, and 2 triple 8HT's for the rear? Or slanted 8's all around would be good?

Also, wouldn't the slanted 8's, not being as efficient, and being an 8 ohm speaker wouldn't receive the same amount of power as the other 4 ohm speakers, so wouldn't they get sort of drowned out, if you will?

I run T8's and single 8's as surrounds. Unless you are in a HUGE room, I'd get the slant or single 8's, the T8's are beyond overkill. Yes they can keep up no problem. Your surrounds won't use the same power as your mains. I've never had a case of the surround falling behind ever and I will run over reference quite often.
post #3815 of 18386
Thanks. I originally told jeff to put them on the top but then called him back and told him to put them in the middle. That way all the coaxes on the front stage would closely line up. But now, i think iam gonna go with the t12's and use the t8's as side surrounds.
post #3816 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I'm no crossover expert, but I do know that having two drivers stacked on top of each other like that covering the same frequency range is a very bad idea...

What's up doc? ...

You might want to contact these guys (Revel)



along with B&W and well just about every manufacturer of three way speakers as they are all propagating that "very bad idea" with their vertical stacked bass drivers...
post #3817 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

I run T8's and single 8's as surrounds. Unless you are in a HUGE room, I'd get the slant or single 8's, the T8's are beyond overkill. Yes they can keep up no problem. Your surrounds won't use the same power as your mains. I've never had a case of the surround falling behind ever and I will run over reference quite often.

How big is your room? I know my room isn't huge. It measures 14 X 25 X 7.5 feet, so 2,625 cubic feet.
post #3818 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post


What's up doc? ...

You might want to contact these guys (Revel)

along with B&W and well just about every manufacturer of three way speakers as they are all propagating that "very bad idea" with their vertical stacked bass drivers...

Hey, I think I did preface that with I'm no expert. But those speakers are built with crossovers that are meant to deal with the driver arrangements. Its not like you could take the drivers out of that Revel speaker and rearrange them any which way you want so long as the wires are long enough and still have the speaker sound the same...
post #3819 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

How big is your room? I know my room isn't huge. It measures 14 X 25 X 7.5 feet, so 2,625 cubic feet.

By big, I mean 20x30x10 or along those lines. Even then I don't think you'd need them. My room is 13 x 32 x 8 but the HT part is kept within 20 of the 32 feet, it's open to the rest of the basement. My T8's are so over kill it's really pointless to spend the extra money on them, they are crossed over at 80hz anyways, there really isn't much benefit to have the T8 over the single 8 or slant 8.
post #3820 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Hey, I think I did preface that with I'm no expert. But those speakers are built with crossovers that are meant to deal with the driver arrangements. Its not like you could take the drivers out of that Revel speaker and rearrange them any which way you want so long as the wires are long enough and still have the speaker sound the same...

It doesn't matter if the driver is on top or not, it sounds the same both ways. Even Jeff says theres no difference, it's purely preference.
post #3821 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

By big, I mean 20x30x10 or along those lines. Even then I don't think you'd need them. My room is 13 x 32 x 8 but the HT part is kept within 20 of the 32 feet, it's open to the rest of the basement. My T8's are so over kill it's really pointless to spend the extra money on them, they are crossed over at 80hz anyways, there really isn't much benefit to have the T8 over the single 8 or slant 8.

I see, your right. And when I just thought about it, in an actual movie theater, the whole theater is surrounded my speakers that resemble the slanted 8, nothing huge like they have behind the screen.

These are the speakers all my local movie theaters have in them to be exact. Yes, I actually look at the speakers when I go to the movies or club or anywhere I go lmao.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/Genera...?PId=278&MId=1

Many have the older version of this
post #3822 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Hey, I think I did preface that with I'm no expert. But those speakers are built with crossovers that are meant to deal with the driver arrangements. Its not like you could take the drivers out of that Revel speaker and rearrange them any which way you want so long as the wires are long enough and still have the speaker sound the same...

It is a 3-way so the issues with the woofers covering the same frequency range down low does not run into the same issues as to say an MTM speaker with the midranges spaced too far apart (depends on distance between the midranges and how high in frequency the crossover is implemented). I also assume that Jeff uses high order crossovers since I have never heard anyone complaining of these stressing.

Jeff uses a coaxial driver so he can arrange the T12 in multiple ways. The compression driver and midrange waves arrive from the same location where the crossover frequency is much higher (shorter wavelengths). Now if we rearranged the Revel speaker from its WWMT to a WMWT then I would expect a messed up frequency response at all axis due to the Mid and Tweeter being spaced too far apart. This lobing occurs when the drivers are spaced further than 1/4 of the wavelength apart. Some of us probably can't even hear the effect with the drivers spaced 1/2 of a wavelength apart. This is why two tweeters are not common. A rear tweeter is sometimes used in certain designs for extra ambience though.
post #3823 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post


It is a 3-way so the issues with the woofers covering the same frequency range down low does not run into the same issues as to say an MTM speaker with the midranges spaced too far apart (depends on distance between the midranges and how high in frequency the crossover is implemented). I also assume that Jeff uses high order crossovers since I have never heard anyone complaining of these stressing.

Jeff uses a coaxial driver so he can arrange the T12 in multiple ways. The compression driver and midrange waves arrive from the same location where the crossover frequency is much higher (shorter wavelengths). Now if we rearranged the Revel speaker from its WWMT to a WMWT then I would expect a messed up frequency response at all axis due to the Mid and Tweeter being spaced too far apart. This lobing occurs when the drivers are spaced further than 1/4 of the wavelength apart. Some of us probably can't even hear the effect with the drivers spaced 1/2 of a wavelength apart. This is why two tweeters are not common. A rear tweeter is sometimes used in certain designs for extra ambience though.

Thanks for the explanation. Understood. The coaxial driver is the key. One of the reasons I've ordered drivers for a DIY speaker build is to force myself to do enough reading and hands on building so I can figure this stuff out myself .
post #3824 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

It is a 3-way so the issues with the woofers covering the same frequency range down low does not run into the same issues as to say an MTM speaker with the midranges spaced too far apart (depends on distance between the midranges and how high in frequency the crossover is implemented). I also assume that Jeff uses high order crossovers since I have never heard anyone complaining of these stressing.

Jeff uses a coaxial driver so he can arrange the T12 in multiple ways. The compression driver and midrange waves arrive from the same location where the crossover frequency is much higher (shorter wavelengths). Now if we rearranged the Revel speaker from its WWMT to a WMWT then I would expect a messed up frequency response at all axis due to the Mid and Tweeter being spaced too far apart. This lobing occurs when the drivers are spaced further than 1/4 of the wavelength apart. Some of us probably can't even hear the effect with the drivers spaced 1/2 of a wavelength apart. This is why two tweeters are not common. A rear tweeter is sometimes used in certain designs for extra ambience though.

Thanks for the explanation. I moved the CD from center to top and then was convinced it didn't sound "as good" because I assumed the crossover was designed with the CD in the middle. I know other people have done the same, and even Jeff says it is ok...but I kept thinking it sounded "not as good".

Amazing how *perception* clouds science.
post #3825 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by kma100 View Post

Thanks for the explanation. I moved the CD from center to top and then was convinced it didn't sound "as good" because I assumed the crossover was designed with the CD in the middle. I know other people have done the same, and even Jeff says it is ok...but I kept thinking it sounded "not as good".

Amazing how *perception* clouds science.

I would think the difference you may be hearing is the fact the CD is higher to your ear and thats the difference you are hearing. As far as I know the crossover isn't designed to have the driver one way or the other. I actually changed out my 2010 crossover to the 2011 with the new CD. Those cabs and that crossover were crazy well built. The crossover was the size of a book and weighted probably a pound or 2.
post #3826 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

I see, your right. And when I just thought about it, in an actual movie theater, the whole theater is surrounded my speakers that resemble the slanted 8, nothing huge like they have behind the screen.

These are the speakers all my local movie theaters have in them to be exact. Yes, I actually look at the speakers when I go to the movies or club or anywhere I go lmao.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/Genera...?PId=278&MId=1

Many have the older version of this

O ya, everywhere I go I'm writing down model numbers taking pics with my phone. My wife just rolls here eyes lol. If I did it again, I would not buy the T8's as surrounds. I'd save the money and buy something else with the money I saved buying the S8. BTW, I was the first person to get the new s8's
post #3827 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

O ya, everywhere I go I'm writing down model numbers taking pics with my phone. My wife just rolls here eyes lol. If I did it again, I would not buy the T8's as surrounds. I'd save the money and buy something else with the money I saved buying the S8. BTW, I was the first person to get the new s8's

lol nice. They look perfect for surrounds. I can't help but smiling and giggle to myself when I think about what the finished theater is gonna look/be/sound like lmao. Yeah I know I'm crazy lol.

When I get done with the next step, I'll post some pictures of what the basement looked like before it was touched, after framing, I'll explain what I want to do etc. I'll make a thread in the Dedicated theater room section when I finish the next step in my basement.
post #3828 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post


I would think the difference you may be hearing is the fact the CD is higher to your ear and thats the difference you are hearing. As far as I know the crossover isn't designed to have the driver one way or the other. I actually changed out my 2010 crossover to the 2011 with the new CD. Those cabs and that crossover were crazy well built. The crossover was the size of a book and weighted probably a pound or 2.

Good point. I have the Triple 8, but the same principles should apply. Just need to upgrade the sub. An 8" sub doesn't quite match up with Jeff's products! :-)
post #3829 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by kma100 View Post

Good point. I have the Triple 8, but the same principles should apply. Just need to upgrade the sub. An 8" sub doesn't quite match up with Jeff's products! :-)

I'm sure my Paradigm PW 2200 won't match up with the T12's either lmao. If I don't get the subs from Mark right away (2 Submersive HP's), I think I'm gonna end up using my 2 DJ subs (JBL PRX618S-XLF) in the meantime rather then my little 12" Paradigm. At least my DJ subs will be able to keep up, if not maybe even drown out lmao, but below 40Hz, nothin' but flappin.
post #3830 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

WOW! I think if I had that in my room, everybody in the room would probably liquify from the sound lol.

4 Submersive HP's!!!! That would be awesome, but would Audyssey have a problem calibrating 4 subs?

I have a Denon AVR-4311CI with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, which is designed for calibrating two subwoofers. In my setup, both "pairs" of Subs are in "matchbook" locations in the room. Then, each of the "pairs" is connected to one of the subwoofer outputs with a "Y" cord.

So, Subwoofer 1 output drives two subs (pair #1), and Subwoofer output 2 also drives two subs (pair #2).

I hope this helps.
post #3831 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

I have a Denon AVR-4311CI with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, which is designed for calibrating two subwoofers. In my setup, both "pairs" of Subs are in "matchbook" locations in the room. Then, each of the "pairs" is connected to one of the subwoofer outputs with a "Y" cord.

So, Subwoofer 1 output drives two subs (pair #1), and Subwoofer output 2 also drives two subs (pair #2).

I hope this helps.

I was thinking about doing that, just wasn't sure if it would throw Adyssey for a loop. So basically, couple the pairs, and act like they are two single cab, dual driver subwoofers, rather then 4 separate single driver subwoofer cabinets.
post #3832 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

I was thinking about doing that, just wasn't sure if it would throw Adyssey for a loop. So basically, couple the pairs, and act like they are two single cab, dual driver subwoofers, rather then 4 separate single driver subwoofer cabinets.

Yes, and you can first hook up each "pair" to Sub 1 and Sub 2 individually to utilize the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 automated process for level-matching the subs.

My Pro installer set them up so the combined output of each "pair" was 82 dB, vice the recommendation of 75 dB. I believe to reach 82 dB combined, each sub has to be set at 79 dB, but let the experts chime in before you proceed.

I hope this helps.

Mark
post #3833 of 18386
You are correct. That I learned from my involvement in pro audio. Adding a second sub will yield about a 3db gain in output. So 79 plus 3 is 82.

coupling adds another 3 so you get a 6db increase in output with coupling subwoofers.
post #3834 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

WOW! I think if I had that in my room, everybody in the room would probably liquify from the sound lol.

4 Submersive HP's!!!! That would be awesome, but would Audyssey have a problem calibrating 4 subs?

People are under the impression that Audyssey applies different EQ to each sub in a 2 sub system, that is not true. Audyssey XT32 with SubEQ only sets the distance (phase) and levels of 2 subs separately but applies EQ to all the subs as 1. If you go for 4 subs just try and keep the pair of subs that are connected to sub out 1 the same distance from the LP and the same goes for the pair of subs connected to the 2nd sub out. You could actually try stacking each pair of subs on top of each other which will increase output as well.

A lot of people run more than 4 subs, just ask N8 Some extra user set-up is required but Audyssey can do the job whether you have 1 or 10 subs.
post #3835 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

People are under the impression that Audyssey applies different EQ to each sub in a 2 sub system, that is not true. Audyssey XT32 with SubEQ only sets the distance (phase) and levels of 2 subs separately but applies EQ to all the subs as 1. If you go for 4 subs just try and keep the pair of subs that are connected to sub out 1 the same distance from the LP and the same goes for the pair of subs connected to the 2nd sub out. You could actually try stacking each pair of subs on top of each other which will increase output as well.

A lot of people run more than 4 subs, just ask N8 Some extra user set-up is required but Audyssey can do the job whether you have 1 or 10 subs.

Yup it's got my 8 subs running nicely
post #3836 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by kma100 View Post

Good point. I have the Triple 8, but the same principles should apply. Just need to upgrade the sub. An 8" sub doesn't quite match up with Jeff's products! :-)

I bet when you turn it up, you can't even hear the little 8" sub. Talk about a mismatch. A JTR setup cries out for multiple subs.
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post #3837 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

I have a Denon AVR-4311CI with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, which is designed for calibrating two subwoofers. In my setup, both "pairs" of Subs are in "matchbook" locations in the room. Then, each of the "pairs" is connected to one of the subwoofer outputs with a "Y" cord.

So, Subwoofer 1 output drives two subs (pair #1), and Subwoofer output 2 also drives two subs (pair #2).

I hope this helps.

I do the exact same thing. Symmetrical front and back placement of four DIY sealed subs. I used to use PEQ on individual subs and measure using REW, but really like the results from the Denon 4311. Using T8's for the front stage and JBL Pro 8340 (not A version) for the surrounds.
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post #3838 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I do the exact same thing. Symmetrical front and back placement of four DIY sealed subs. I used to use PEQ on individual subs and measure using REW, but really like the results from the Denon 4311. Using T8's for the front stage and JBL Pro 8340 (not A version) for the surrounds.

Since you use REW, I was curious if you adjusted the sub distance from Audyssey's post-calibration setting to tweak the sub/sat blend at the crossover?

Mark
post #3839 of 18386
I'm thinking of getting 3 Triple-8 or Triple-12 for LCR.

Anyone running 3 of them horizontally across the front, say 18" off the floor with a slight tilt up ? Any issues with such a setup ? Reason I ask is that the next screen will be 138" wide ( non AT ) and one runs out of ceiling height !

- Andy
post #3840 of 18386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Lammer View Post

I'm thinking of getting 3 Triple-8 or Triple-12 for LCR.

Anyone running 3 of them horizontally across the front, say 18" off the floor with a slight tilt up ? Any issues with such a setup ? Reason I ask is that the next screen will be 138" wide ( non AT ) and one runs out of ceiling height !

- Andy

You should be fine with the LCR's horizontal. I ran my t12 center horizontal fro a few months with no noticeable negative effect. That said, an AT screen is the way to go if at all possible.
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