Official JTR speaker thread - Page 172

So what is the consensus? Should we aim for 0 or is it enough to just be above -12?

I can get mine to -10 and all my reading are very similar. I use Pro. When I had my emotiva amps, their high gain and the JTR's just didn't play well. I never did get audyssey to play nice, It always sounded harsh and lifeless. The D-sonics sure took care of that and I'm sure the much lower gain helped out a lot.

As long as it is -11.5 or less audyssey works.
At -12 it may need to be -14 or -15 but since -12 is the lowest trim setting it screws it up.
That is the problem all filters are based on incorrect trim settings.
Chris
If the next generation of Audyssey can make the lowest setting -15 we can probably avoid this problem.
Edited by countryWV - 10/25/12 at 6:21am

Countrywv,

i mentioned previously, that i remove the attenautors (12db rca type) after calibration and find that the system works great. Before the attens.Audyssey was setting my trims at -12db, with the the attens. in place the trims were set to +4db l&r fronts and 3.5db for the center. I then removed the attens. and used the spl to lower the trims to 75db level for the three fronts. -5.5db l&r and -3.5db for the center. This way i don't have the attens. in the chain after calbration. All sounds great! Any input on how i'm going about removing the attens., can something still be wrong ? 

I would like clarification regarding this temporary attenuation method as well. So Audyssey sets the levels of the attenuated signal to 75 db. Then you remove the attenuators (which in your example would bump the levels by 12db) and then manually reduces the levels of the non-attenuated signal to get back to 75db? It would seem that due to the -12db limitation you would still not have the range necessary to get the levels back to 75db

I like the idea of removing attenuation from the signal chain, but wonder about the "devil in the details" of this method ...

Something mentioned over at the Audyssey site is that the trim level range is determined by the AVR; Audyssey has nothing to do with it.

The idea behind the attenuators is to get audyssey to set you trim levels to -11.5 or below like -8 or -6.
That way the filters and whatever else it does has the correct equation when working to adjust for the room.
If it is set at -12 that is maxed out and even though it may need to be -14 the equation Audyssey uses turns out to be wrong
becuase it using -12 instead of -14.
If you use attentuators use them if not don't but using them then taking them out equals the wrong filter setting also.
You may be lucky and it sounds great that way but that should be a coinsidense not the normal.
IF you use them keep them on or you can/will get false settings which is why one uses attenuators to begin with.
Try to avoid using if possible or if you plan on removing them after Audyssey
Chris

Take this information with a grain of salt because what works for me may not work for anyone else.
I have spent countless hours as everyone here probably has and this it just my own personal conclusion that seams to work great
and I have 100% consistant results as long as I do not change speaker angles or put the mic in the wrong location.
Edited by countryWV - 10/25/12 at 8:22am

Whether it gets it from the avr or not If it determined to be -12 it probably will not work correctly unless it truly is -12 and not maxed out.
Audyssey used correclty works great but it is easy to mess up so it is all or nothing and some people do choose nothing.
I always imagined it had to do with trim levels being correct or not.
Chris
It is like doing a math problem if you have the wrong numbers to work with you come up with the wrong answer.
Edited by countryWV - 10/25/12 at 7:57am

Well after many days of tweaking, some quite frustrating, I've finally achieved good bass integration in my system for both rows. I ended up setting the rear DD15 sub 5db lower than the S2, at the primary listening position (front row). This allowed for a few different positive effects. At the -5db setting the DD15 is still able to fill in the room nulls of the S2 on the front row without overpowering the rear row. With the near-field placement of the DD15 to the back row it was way to overpowering to run it level with the S2 at the primary listening position. Running the DD15 at -5dbs also gives it more legs to attempt to keep up with the S2, it doesn't obviously, but it does a very good job of helping out to pretty high listening levels. Getting Audyssey and the Anti Mode dual core playing nicely took a couple frustrating tries but I'm very happy with the result now.

For those of you looking at JTR gear and don't know whether to get the sealed or vented I would strongly consider your speaker placement in the room. I chose the vented 12's because they were the original model that I'd been lusting over for years. My L/R are 17in from the side walls and they pick up huge mid bass around 140hz, just as Jeff has mentioned earlier in this thread by the way they are voiced in free space. This is easily fixed with Audyssey or a parametric EQ but the sealed 12's would probably have a somewhat flatter natural response in my room. Now to confuse you I'd probably still order the vented models if I had it to do over anyway because I feel it's much easier to remove too much mid bass than not have enough if I ever have to move and change my setup...maybe I'm just paranoid!

Here is a 1/6th smoothed full range stereo frequency response from my primary listening position with 80hz crossovers. This is exactly as it came out of Audyssey and the Anti Mode DC. I was surprised to see Audyssey giving me a nice house curve which leads to my question.

What do you guys think of this house curve? Do you think the subs are too hot compared to the mains? When using Omnimic to measure pink noise spl's after Audyssey it is showing the subs around 3db hotter than the mains, this can also be seen in the response below. I've only listened to a few songs and no movies since finishing the calibration last night but it sounds damn good; however you can tell it's not truly flat. I like it but it's not "reference".

So in your shoes would you keep the subs at the level shown below or would you drop them 3dbs to get them in line with the 100-300hz region of the curve? Curve or flat, I know the answer is that it is my preference. What is your preference?

IMHO I would say you are FLAT from 5-350hz. 350hz and above is low, try just boosting 400hz to 10khz and see how it sounds.

 

I thought the attenuators only reduced the overall level of the signal, thereby allowing for more flexibility  with regard to higher or lower trim. So is the attenuators changing the sound of the signal? Or is it just lowering the level overall? I think or thought it just lowered the level of the volume overall and if that is the case then how would that change the filters? All i'm doing is taking out the atten. after calibration and not changing the eq settings. I'm trying to understand how this works out,my room is treated. Please lets get to the bottom of this issue, after all with this hobby it can get very expensive we should be able to remedy such! Maybe Audyssey will help or we should at least expect it. High sensitivity speakers may pose new issues for audyssey hopefully they can fix it,i for one feel it's needed. Equality For our JTR's.

I'm no pro, nor do I have the golden ear and like your curve the way it looks for music. I am a midbass freak!

Dragon
With the attenuators connected Audyssey bases its filters and everything else it does off that reading. When they are taken out it is back to the the way it was before the attenuators were added but all of its settings were based on having them connected. It has been said to rerun audyssey even when you rearrange furniture so putting an attenuator on then taking off has to do something to the settings/filters.
Chris
If filters are based on -9 with attenuators then taken out, the -9 is actually alot higher but all Audyssey settings/filters were based on the -9 not the new reading whatever that maybe without the attenuators

BeastAudio
he knows alot about using attenuators mabey he can slide in hear.
Edited by countryWV - 10/25/12 at 9:43am

Side Question for RMK:

Did you get The Art of Flight yet? How was the opening Alaska chapter cranked on your system?

While this is not exactly relevant to your situation, it should make you feel comfortable with your calbrated subwoofer levels. I have JTR's and 4 Seaton SubMersive HP's (one pair on Sub 1, one pair on Sub2). The Audyssey Pro calibration on my Denon AVR-4311CI was done by Mark Seaton, and he raised the level of my subwoofer trim levels by 5 dB and adjusted the subwoofer distance settings after the Audyssey calibration. He was also tweaking the curve using the curve editor in Audyssey Pro. As you are aware, there are some additional steps necessary when using multiple subwoofers with Audyssey. I have incorporated the distance adjustment tip into the documents posted in the Audyssey Setup Guide post in my signature below.

Mark
Edited by giomania - 10/25/12 at 9:49am

I received the disk but have not played it as yet. I've been out of town and now I'm waiting for the attenuators to arrive and re-run my setup before any critical listening. The Art of Flight is at the top of the list of films to watch and I know I will be watching it this weekend.

Also, I am a SF Giants fan the the World Series is taking precedent ...

Thanks Countrywv! Beastaudio please chime in. I will re-run audyssey later today and see what my results are, yes i'll leave the attenuators in place.

Dragon
Run audyssey without the attenuaters connected and get your readings. If they are -11.5 or less( -9 or -8.5) then you won't need them.
If it comes up -12 then you do. After running Audyssey with the attentuators on check your readings/trimlevel. they should be lowered and that lower number is what is uses to
determine the filter/settings. If for some reason you disconnect the attenuators then technically you are supposed to rerun Audyssey again which brings you back to where you started without attenuators.
Most important is that if it sounds better by doing the way you have been then keep doing it the way it sounds best.
The end result and goal is to make your system sound how you want it to sound not Ausyssey.
For me personally I like Audyssey for the Dual subwoofer level match and filters.
I like MCACC (Pioneers version) better for speakers
Since it is one or the other I pick the subwoofer one which comes with Audyssey
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 10/26/12 at 9:40am

That statement essentially means the AVR manufacturer chooses whether or not they want their bottom or top trim levels at -10,-12,-15 etc. Audyssey still sweeps to level match each source to the best of its ability which gets us to the next few posts.


Honestly that is a perfect house curve IMO. If I could mimic that with VERY slight improvements I would more than likely never touch my system again...For at least a week With that said, I like that curve for music, where you are about 5 db's hot in the bass range. This won't be too taxing or overbearing in the bass dept, but will augment the tonal quality of your system on tracks that demand more sub freq performance. For movies you could potentially back it down a db or two but I'd more than likely keep it right where it is. Excellent work!!!




Jeez, not around for one day and ya'll come hollerin' at me!! Haha. Dragon, I would suggest you do just what has been mentioned and run audyssey with no attenuators and see where it gets you. Have a listen, or even better an REW sweep or two if you are able and tell/show us what you think. After you do that, put the attenuators on, re-do Audyssey and leave the attenuators on, but go and make sure speakers are still level matched after Aud does it's thing. Have another listen and REW if you can. Then go back and pull the attenuators, level match one more time and have another listen, now your final impressions...

Now on to the technical stuff, the attenuators will not affect the SQ of the signal passing through them, they will just simply drop the signal level. If they alter the sound in any way, then they are crap and you need to look on to some different ones. The dayton ones linked above will suffice just fine. The problem is the high sensitivity JTR's which sometimes will not play well with big wattage consumer amps without gain control. Next problem, you drop the signal too much, then your overall voltage the amp sees will not allow it to be driven to its max potential. Now the question you are all asking: Well so do my attenuators drop the signal too much that my amp doesnt have enough clean signal coming in? No, the only way this would happen is if Audyssey was setting the gains at the exact opposite end of the spectrum at +12db where you not only have overcompensated, but not at +12db's you may be in danger of clipping the output stage of your AVR. My main suggestion is to find what keeps you between a -6 and +6 reading on the final results, but a little outside that range on the bottom side won't kill anyone.

WV, at -11.5 I would still be a little skeptical. I have no evidence to back this up and would need to talk to Aud. to see what they say here, but the sweet spot I like to go for is no more than -9,-10 at the highest. I just don't like being within a 1/2db of the extreme of the measurement and sometimes feel like Audyssey still doesnt quite get it there, but once again, that is just me...

Hope that helps a little

Beast
Thanks for the clarification I knew you had the answer.
I agree on the -11.5 as I was using it as the bottom line before maxing at -12.
I prefer to keep between -5 and -9 but its a guess for me at best.
I thought about using attenuators with the emo but I was able to get another amp so I did
not have to use them. I try to keep it simple like that.
I am glad that there is someone with plenty of experience to run questions by,
My knowledge thus far comes mostly from messing things up and knowing what not do.
Great info
Thanks
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 10/25/12 at 3:11pm

Beast

Thanks for taking the time. I've done what you suggest,and my results are that the system sounds the same whether or not i leave the attenuators in place after calibration . So it seems that taking out the attenuators from the chain has no effect on the sound quality,the trims were re-balanced (level matched) without the attenuators in place. It sounds pretty good i'll play it by ear and try things out like they are.

beastaudio - It sounds to me that we that have JTR speakers. we are probably better off using a Pro amp for mains and center so that we can use the gain control to tame the trims down below -10 or so. I have some XLS1000 Crown amps that I'm not using so do you think that they would work well for this purpose?

Bill

I installed received the attenuators today and installed them tonight. I am using them with the LCR Noesis and one on each Orbit Shifter. My levels now are 0db for the LCR's and the same with the OS with the gain on the sub amps up 3 clicks.

Did a quick 3 position Audyssey and checked the levels and all were 75db or very close. Played a couple of songs off of the MJ This is It Bluray... WOW, They sound fantastic and I am stoked.

More this weekend ...

I've been thinking and reading up on the crown amps. They have level control knobs and definately have the rms power to handle jtr's,however someone on the forum mentioned that the amps may not produce the power  when used with home theater recievers because of the difference in the input signal. Way beyond my full understanding! Maybe someone with knowledge can chime in. If i can get the full rms power i'll get three of them for the fronts.The xls 1500 can be bridged, at 4ohms 1550 watts.

You realize, of course, that you will be likely to achieve reference levels with about 1/40 of that power.

Rob
Glad to hear the attenuators worked. That problem was quick and easy to solve.
Cannot wait to hear your thoughts on the Noesis 212. We may have run out of words to describe the experience
you are about to have. My guess is it is just going to keep getting better with continuous Perma-grin

Dragon
Those crown amps are My favorite pro audio amps by far(for the $$$$).
The idea to get them to produce the most wattage possible is the Power supply.
The more power you can get to these amps the more watts they produce. Seperate and try not to share circuits and
big, thick, and short power cords can/will help. Most individuals have them in a rack outside the room sitting next to
outlets for short power cord runs. If you have the space avaiable you can really get alot out of these amps.

Bsoko2
Your Sunfire amp is a great amp and since you already have it keep it. It is designed and made for exactly what you are
using it for home theater.It is also a very powerful amp that doubles down on the watts from 400 @8ohm to 800@ 4ohm.
That is proof of just how good the amp is.
As long as amp have a realitively low gain like 27db they should work well with high sensitive speakers.
Thank you for pointing out that dynamic volume/EQ set to evening mode sucks on the 4311. Turning that off made all the
difference in sound to me.

Chris
Edited by countryWV - 10/26/12 at 6:34am

Countrywv

Thanks for the input, i do have a seprate room that houses my components and i can get new dedicated power lines that i'll install myself. Great idea!

Peter v.

Yes, it was a simple fix and I wish I had done this a long time ago. Regarding the Noesis, I think you may be right Chris. I played the This Is It songs at reference and the sound was incredibly clear and detailed. In fact, I was hearing detail in the music and vocals that I had not heard before. I just saw The Dark Knight Rises in a very nice IMAX in Montreal. The sound was better than I have ever experienced in any commercial theater before but now, my HT is sounding better (actually much better) than that.

Pretty excited ... :cool:

I run 4 crown xl's 1500's on my JTR's. One each bridged on the LCR and one in stereo on my wide single 8's. I chose the xls because they have standard rca inputs and binding post outputs, they are lite and efficient, huge power and a very good s/n ratio plus have gain controls. You have to watch the xls1000's as they are not the same class as the 1500's with apparently cheaper internals and a much worse s/n ratio. I know that I won't use the 1550 watts per speaker but for the price of these amps it was still far cheaper to go the way I did than almost anything else and I don't have any wasted channels or unevenly loaded amps this way. In addition I have never been able to make the fans turn on despite some very long reference or above demo sessions. They are in my main equipment rack in the main room and don't make a sound. The front lights are a bit bright so I wouldn't want them in line of site but they are behind me and not noticeable. The signal lights pulse with the sound but never go near the top of the range no matter what I do. The headroom is endless obviously. The only thing they are missing is a 12v trigger so I turn them on and off manually. I haven't found a reasonably priced remote switched power source that I think can handle the instant draw four of these things will pull during movie playback.

I swore I would never have upgrade-itus again with my T12/OS setup but now with Noesis and cap s2's popping up I'm starting to itch.

I would say that this is the case. Pro amps are very well known for not coloring the sound at all and giving you a true clean signal all the way through. I ran my T12's off an XLS2000 for a little while and loved it.


Any differences in the Audyssey run? Do you see a less perceived "harshness" up top that has been remedied?


Ok, where to start. WV, you definitely have a great point, but what DLP was referring to was the output voltage from the consumer AVR is not enough juice to run a pro amp. Consumer gear operates on a mimimum voltage of .9 voltsRMS to drive consumer amps to maximum, pro amps as for usually 1.2 Vrms. It has been tested and proven many times that just about EVERY consumer amp produced these days are putting out MORE than enough voltage to drive these pro amps JUST fine. The drivecore series has a sensitivity of 1.4Vrms to drive to full output at 4 ohms, not a problem for the Onkyo's, Yammy's, Integra's, Denon's, etc. of the world. If you are still skeptical, you can order any number of signal "converter" boxes that will take an RCA cable in, and output to XLR with a gain boost knob to get the signal to a respectable level should you REALLY want to try it out. I have 4 different types in my possession, all of which I bought just to mess around with. NONE of them are in my signal chain right now, so that should go to show you how little I really felt they were necessary.

With all that said, the Drivecore series amps have RCA inputs on them, one of the few pro amps that allows this. When I first got it, it was used for subs. Even though I had the ability to use straight RCA's with the XLS, I wanted to try to convert and see what happened. Bottom line, they are useful but 9 times out of 10 are not needed. The fans on the Drivecores are dead silent and when running my T12's I never once saw them come on. Hell, at reference +4, was the only way I could even see the -20 light hit on the amp.

And here we have this, which is 100% true. Headroom is headroom though, and these guys are clean.