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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 202

post #6031 of 8249
12/10/12 at 5:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Sure tube amps will "usually" have more distortion than a SS amp but that doesn't man it's always audible. Unless I'm/anyone is doing a blind A/B test in the proper conditions, there is no way to tell vs anything else. You can't judge by memory. Nothing stuck out as different and if it did? I'd likely be just wanting it to in the first place.

It's not always audible but it usually is, so we'll agree to disagree on that one. Although, I do agree some tubes have less distortion than others.

I know a lot of people who could pass a blind test of tubes vs. SS (and already have). Distortion is very audible if you know what to listen for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post

Iowa GTG will be on Jan 5th. See here for details on the event....all kinds of JTR goodness (and others)
http://www.avsforum.com/t/871474/ia-meet/3420#post_22677212

Thanks, David.
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

The 4311 has plenty of power for a GTG. It wlil also drive 4,6,8 ohm speakers equally as well. Some lower model avr mabey not so much on LE speakers.
How do you go about doing a blind test with HE against LE? Would not the volume have to be limited? I guess you could do the volume level blind also. Just curious as to your plans.
Did I read you all will be using a pair of S2's. Noesis and Salks crossed over to a pair of Cap S2's sounds like a full day all by itself. I feel sorry for any other speakers that attend.
I hope your GTG does not ruin your Christmas excitement. I know I don't even like to go on vacation anymore.
Chris

You're dead on. This won't be a simple swap and listen scenario, as each speaker will need to be re-level matched between listening sessions, and the subs will have to be re-adjusted as well. Someone could shell out 2 grand and purchase that A/B switcher from Van Alstine, which allows you to level match the speakers before starting the listen sessions, allowing you to just hit the remote swap button and you're done. Come on...only 2 thousand guys! biggrin.gif
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post #6032 of 8249
12/10/12 at 7:14am
Just thrown this out there because I am extremely interested in seeing how you all pull this off and what each person thinks about it. In my head,
I have been going over how to do a blind test with HE vs LE for about a year and the more I think about it The more difficult and unclear it becomes.
It seems that in order to make it difficult to distinguish between the 2 designs each speakers speciality would have to be taken out of the session or what makes each speaker shine would need to be dulled down somewhat. If each speaker is made to shine I think most will be able to tell. That is the interesting part Can you or Can't you? I am glad to see that question addressed.
No matter how you do it everyones opinions and thoughts will be appreciated by myself and alot of others. Thanks for taking the time to try as mabey one day all of the smaller GTG's will lead to one big GTG that is the fruits of the others combined.
Post as much as possible about goals, rules, and general expectations as it will be VERY INTERESTING!!!
Thanks
Chris
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post #6033 of 8249
12/10/12 at 8:53am
I'm sure all Salk speakers sound great and I'm pretty sure I know how the Noesis sound. I'm looking forward to the attendees impressions. Just keep it fun guys ...smile.gif
Edited by RMK! - 12/10/12 at 9:37am
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post #6034 of 8249
12/10/12 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Those of us that are going to be at David's GTG, should we try a blind test between a receiver and a powerful amp? I have yet to read about anyone actually trying this with a blind test, cold be very interesting.... could also open a big a** can of worms!! eek.gifsmile.gif

You have my vote on this for sure!!!
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post #6035 of 8249
12/10/12 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

You haven't tasted this forbidden fruit Stay Puft Man ... tongue.gifwink.gif

Haha, no, not yet good sir smile.gif I can say with utmost confidence though, should I manage to sell all this other stuff I have laying around, I should be pretty close to where I need to be for a LCR, but once again, I want to see how my DIY design fairs first...

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

In the intersest of moving forward it seems we need to clear things up by finding a fact we all agree on. Any JTR speaker NEEDS very little power to drive them to reference I agree and thats a fact.
If a owners goal is to drive their system to reference level on as little power as possible then of coarse JTR speakers HE designs offer a great oppertunity. almost no power will get them there.
I did not buy T12's to see how little I could "get by with" I bought them to try to "get the most" out of them. They are 2 different goals No right No wrong just different ends of the spectrum. If an owner wants to run them on an AVR or even T-amp and is satisfied with the results then that is great. It sure would make things alot easier and a whole lot less expensive all while taking up less space and even using less electricity. I have never read anything that objects to that at all.
What about the owners who are trying to get 'the absolute most " out of their system? This is were it becomes unclear to me of what your true point is and why you tied your above comment to that thread becuaes to me it seemed to be a different discussion. What do you suggest? Am I truly wasting my time , money ,and all effort by powering my system with an external amp? I understand your statement "you need relatively little power to drive the Noesis to reference" as you said that is a fact. What is the next step? For me it becomes CLARITY at reference not just SPL at reference. I have already accomplished the goal of hitting reference so now my goal is to make it sound its best at this level.
Any thoughtful suggestions you can give on how to make mine or any system sound better at reference is greatly appreciated. If there is a better way please point me in that direction.
Chris

Here is one direction you could go, I just got the EQ this weekend, but I am REALLY looking forward to dialing my setup in even further smile.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443125/using-dual-31band-eqs-for-lcr-to-give-audyssey-a-head-start

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Those of us that are going to be at David's GTG, should we try a blind test between a receiver and a powerful amp? I have yet to read about anyone actually trying this with a blind test, cold be very interesting.... could also open a big a** can of worms!! eek.gifsmile.gif

I like that idea a whole lot, and it should be obvious which is which if you run them hard enough. The switch Nu refers to would be killer, but $$$. My suggestion would be to run them both at a level where you know the distortion levels are going to be close, or not at all yet, and see what you get. Reference should be close to ok, even with the 4311, but I would say start at -10 or -15 and work your way up switching between the two until most people should start to hear the difference. Doing this test ahead of time might yield some good expectations for those that are NOT going to be blind.
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post #6036 of 8249
12/10/12 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


I like that idea a whole lot, and it should be obvious which is which if you run them hard enough. The switch Nu refers to would be killer, but $$$. My suggestion would be to run them both at a level where you know the distortion levels are going to be close, or not at all yet, and see what you get. Reference should be close to ok, even with the 4311, but I would say start at -10 or -15 and work your way up switching between the two until most people should start to hear the difference. Doing this test ahead of time might yield some good expectations for those that are NOT going to be blind.
It will be obvious once you approach reference levels, yes. You cannot mess around with listening levels during a blind test, though, as even a change of 1 decibel can be perceived as better. People also need to relaize the JTRs will maintain their composure up to and beyond reference level, while the Salks won't; the latter isn't designed for that, hence damage may occur. If people are thinking this will be a comparison of both speakers at reference, prepare to have a very unhappy host once his drivers get destroyed or he fries the VCs on the speakers. I'd suggest playing with various volume levels after the blind test is complete. Also, don't intermix the music session and HT session; do music on each speaker then HT on each speaker. You don't want to add any more extra level matching sessions than necessary. Finally, the 4311 likely will not provide enough power for the Salks at the levels you're talking.
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post #6037 of 8249
12/10/12 at 3:33pm
This might be silly, but regarding the gtg and set-up scenario, what if there was an attendee who happens to have the same receiver and would be willing to bring it along so that you just have to hook up each different set of speakers once and calibrate them separately, that way you could maybe do a more direct a/b comparison?
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post #6038 of 8249
12/10/12 at 4:06pm
Would this work? Setup run through night before meet. Use Denon for blind test no eq engaged looking at ~85db level playback for music. Minidsp will be used to eq the subwoofers prior. 80hz crossover, will adjust subwoofer distance for each speaker type for best crossover integration. Use broadband signal (which would be preferred?) to set speakers for level match.

Then day of meet just need to change speakers, then set pre-known speaker levels and different subwoofer distance in receiver, should be a fairly quick swap this way right?

I think adding a third set of speakers to the blind shootout would be good so its not a 50/50 guess.

Music test separately first half of day then break, second half of day movies. The Noesis center would be horizontal, but would be a matching speaker as the Salk's would not.
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post #6039 of 8249
12/10/12 at 4:18pm
If you guys could find someone else with a 4311, it could make life much easier. Save all the calibration settings for each set of speakers on each unit.
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post #6040 of 8249
12/10/12 at 4:36pm
I know somebody that has one but what a pain in the rear for him. Let me check.
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post #6041 of 8249
12/10/12 at 5:47pm
What a great guy!! He's willing to loan us the second 4311 for the event. Sweet! I guess he will be attending so will reap some benefit I hope.

David
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post #6042 of 8249
12/10/12 at 6:12pm
Teaser pics poster here....

http://www.avsforum.com/t/871474/ia-meet/3450#post_22687150
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post #6043 of 8249
12/10/12 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post

What a great guy!! He's willing to loan us the second 4311 for the event. Sweet! I guess he will be attending so will reap some benefit I hope.
David

Thats pretty sweet. Should make switching a breeze!
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post #6044 of 8249
12/10/12 at 7:33pm
David, do want me to bring up the speaker stands for the Noesis?
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post #6045 of 8249
12/10/12 at 7:40pm
That would be great. Thanks Carp.
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post #6046 of 8249
12/10/12 at 7:44pm
No problem, I'm curious to see what they will look like - Jeff texted me today that I should have my speakers/stands by the weekend..

Man, I love the look of your S2's, still haven't seen one in person. Are you seeing this Tim? Must... resist... reaching... for the wallet!!!!
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post #6047 of 8249
12/10/12 at 9:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post

Teaser pics poster here....
http://www.avsforum.com/t/871474/ia-meet/3450#post_22687150

Double S2s??? This is not gonna be a fair fight!! ho ho ho!
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post #6048 of 8249
12/10/12 at 10:33pm
Score!! Even though I won't be there, big thanks to the great guy supplying the second 4311. Shame, all my gear is down and unplugged (including a 4311) due to a room and system redo. I'm not sure where the meet is, but I'm sure it's probably too far for this cheap okie.

Being an owner of both songtowers and quintuples, I'm interested to see how the meet goes. I personally prefer the power of the jtr's over the delicacy of the salks. But I guess I like my stuff too loud wink.gif I really should probably just sell the salks because I'm not getting the use that I should out of them. But since I can't seem to get myself to do it, then that must say something positive besides just their sexy good looks -
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post #6049 of 8249
12/11/12 at 4:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by maintman View Post

Score!! Even though I won't be there, big thanks to the great guy supplying the second 4311. Shame, all my gear is down and unplugged (including a 4311) due to a room and system redo. I'm not sure where the meet is, but I'm sure it's probably too far for this cheap okie.
Being an owner of both songtowers and quintuples, I'm interested to see how the meet goes. I personally prefer the power of the jtr's over the delicacy of the salks. But I guess I like my stuff too loud wink.gif I really should probably just sell the salks because I'm not getting the use that I should out of them. But since I can't seem to get myself to do it, then that must say something positive besides just their sexy good looks -
In a perfect world I would own both too.smile.gif
Chris
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post #6050 of 8249
12/11/12 at 7:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Double S2s??? This is not gonna be a fair fight!! ho ho ho!

Huh? The subs will be used for each speaker in attendance, so...???
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post #6051 of 8249
12/11/12 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Huh? The subs will be used for each speaker in attendance, so...???

Not true, being a "full range" speaker, the Salks will just have to go it alone ... tongue.gif
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post #6052 of 8249
12/11/12 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Not true, being a "full range" speaker, the Salks will just have to go it alone ... tongue.gif

LOL! biggrin.gif
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post #6053 of 8249
12/11/12 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Not true, being a "full range" speaker, the Salks will just have to go it alone ... tongue.gif

Hee Hee... I concur!
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post #6054 of 8249
12/11/12 at 9:26am
OK so just so you guys can see what fun can be had with an external EQ, check out my progress last night smile.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443125/using-dual-31band-eqs-for-lcr-to-give-audyssey-a-head-start/30#post_22687873

Also, after doing this, I ran Ghosts N Stuff at +5 and immediately felt nauseous. It was crazy. The system sounds better than ever though and that response is the best I have ever had. The JTR's didnt need as much tweaking to get them flat from looking at past graphs, but I have to say, I have never been this happy with the bass dept, it is just unreal...
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post #6055 of 8249
12/11/12 at 9:35am
^ While I am against applying any EQ above the Schroeder Frequency to a passive speaker, those results look really good. Nice job!
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post #6056 of 8249
12/11/12 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

^ While I am against applying any EQ above the Schroeder Frequency to a passive speaker, those results look really good. Nice job!

FWIW I managed to avoid any boosting if I could. There is one or two boosts in there no more than 3dB tho, all the rest are cuts. I did notice the first shot at it, where I had eq'd a lot more, that the noise floor rose to a point I no longer liked it, so I scratched that plan, and started fresh, and the second time I achieved those results you see. It was a LOT of fun actually and the final response was well worth it smile.gif
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post #6057 of 8249
12/11/12 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

OK so just so you guys can see what fun can be had with an external EQ, check out my progress last night smile.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443125/using-dual-31band-eqs-for-lcr-to-give-audyssey-a-head-start/30#post_22687873
Also, after doing this, I ran Ghosts N Stuff at +5 and immediately felt nauseous. It was crazy. The system sounds better than ever though and that response is the best I have ever had. The JTR's didnt need as much tweaking to get them flat from looking at past graphs, but I have to say, I have never been this happy with the bass dept, it is just unreal...

What speakers are you applying the EQ to Beast?

LR+Subs, LCR+subs, all speakers and subs?
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post #6058 of 8249
12/11/12 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

What speakers are you applying the EQ to Beast?
LR+Subs, LCR+subs, all speakers and subs?

The 31-Band EQ I am applying to the L/R and then I have the DCX2496 which XO's my two subs, sets their phase/delay, and sets the low end boost (Linkwitz Transform). Other than that the DCX didn't need to eq the bass response at all, so I do believe my overall placement right now is pretty good to go. PIC: (minus the T8 so now running phantom CC)

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post #6059 of 8249
12/11/12 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

OK so just so you guys can see what fun can be had with an external EQ, check out my progress last night smile.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443125/using-dual-31band-eqs-for-lcr-to-give-audyssey-a-head-start/30#post_22687873
Also, after doing this, I ran Ghosts N Stuff at +5 and immediately felt nauseous. It was crazy. The system sounds better than ever though and that response is the best I have ever had. The JTR's didnt need as much tweaking to get them flat from looking at past graphs, but I have to say, I have never been this happy with the bass dept, it is just unreal...

This past weekend when I went and demo'd the Salk speakers the owner Richard had a graph that shows the line for some 5" drivers.

Since I didn't really know much about those graphs and what they meant prior to that, I was wondering if anyone had any of those for any setups with the T8 or T12 speakers? I would just be curious to compare them.

Granted, I'm still a noob at the details of what those graphs mean heh, but I'm still learning.
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post #6060 of 8249
12/11/12 at 1:25pm
what do you mean shows the line for the 5" drivers? The frequency response of the system?
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