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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 210

post #6271 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

I have an Onkyo PRSC 886 and when Audyssey was run it put my JTR's to -12 and the B&W DM603s rears at +2 or so. What it did to the subs I have no idea....
Where I am at now it I have turned the EQ off and just run everything flat. The front JTR's I put at -2.5 and the rears at +2.5. The subs are at +9 on the speaker setup menu on the Onkyo but the gain adjustment on the Crest CC4000 is set to -10 which puts the dial at around 10pm.
I have no doubt my components should add up to a kick ass system but something tells me the setup, lack of Audyssey (which really toned everything down too much for me) and the constant adjustment of the gain on the sub amps have things pretty screwed up. Sure it can get loud but I know it can sound sooooo much better.
Guess my plug and play style has caught up to me and it not helping these components shine.

Jedi gave some good advice. Minus 12 is the max cut on the Onkyo. If your amp has gain control turn it down for the T12's. If not, then you might want to consider some 10db attenuators for the T12's.

There is no way the Caps should be at +9. Do you have an SPL meter? If so, use it to level match all the speakers and subs to 75db. Jedi's suggestion of setting the sub level to 0 on the Onkyo and then use the gain on the Crest to adjust the sub levels to 75db was a good one. smile.gif
Edited by RMK! - 12/23/12 at 2:07pm
post #6272 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Jedi gave some good advice. Minus 12 is the max cut on the Onkyo. If your amp has gain control turn it down for the T12's. If not, then you might want to consider some 10db attenuators for the T12's.
There is no way the Caps should be at +9. Do you have an SPL meter? If so, use it to level match all the speakers and subs to 75db. Jedi's suggestion of setting the sub level to 0 on the Onkyo and then use the gain on the Crest to adjust the sub levels to 75db was a good one. smile.gif


Thanks for the info. I have an Emotiva XPA-5 running the speakers and the Crest CC4000 running the 2 Caps. No fancy wiring, no bridging, etc.

I should have looked for help from an AVSer than this company that hook all this stuff up. They were great with getting the IR remote to work but all my other components don't seem to be performing as well as they should be. As you can tell from my frequency on this board, my interest comes and goes. It comes when I want to watch something and it immediately goes when I realize this isn't as good as it should be.

Figured it would be a good idea to try and do a reset with everything before going out and buying new drivers for the Caps and the Neosis only to find that I will plug them in with the current setting and not be thrilled.

I've got no equipment, no SPL meter and probably lost the mic that came with the Onkyo. Looks like I will be reaching out to some lucky local AVS guy for some help.
post #6273 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

I know what you are saying. I don't know if there are many brands out there with this kind of devoted following.
Being an owner myself, I understand. With an otherwise modest system, I have sound better than most movie theaters in my home. All because of a company that I never would have heard of other than on this forum.
I just watched The Dark Knight Rises. The way the speakers make it so visceral without sounding loud is amazing. Much better than my experience in the theater.
Considering making my room larger so I can get these speakers lol
post #6274 of 18511
Anybody on the JTR forum, if you guys are in the market for a Projector, I recommend looking at the Sony HW50. Just like I sing the praises of JTR ever since I go them, the Sony HW50 is just as impressive for the picture side of things. Lots of glowing reviews in industry publications and I can vouch for it. Very impressive for the money.
post #6275 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

Thanks for the info. I have an Emotiva XPA-5 running the speakers and the Crest CC4000 running the 2 Caps. No fancy wiring, no bridging, etc.
I should have looked for help from an AVSer than this company that hook all this stuff up. They were great with getting the IR remote to work but all my other components don't seem to be performing as well as they should be. As you can tell from my frequency on this board, my interest comes and goes. It comes when I want to watch something and it immediately goes when I realize this isn't as good as it should be.
Figured it would be a good idea to try and do a reset with everything before going out and buying new drivers for the Caps and the Neosis only to find that I will plug them in with the current setting and not be thrilled.
I've got no equipment, no SPL meter and probably lost the mic that came with the Onkyo. Looks like I will be reaching out to some lucky local AVS guy for some help.

I may have an extra mic from an Integra lying around that should work. The SPL meter is an essential piece of kit for an HT owner so you should order one while your thinking about it.

It is actually healthier not to spend to much time here. It's a bit addictive and like has been mentioned, leads to unnecessary upgrades smile.gif.
post #6276 of 18511
OK, making slight progress here. Took the sub setting within the Onkyo level calibration to 0 and the JTR's to -3.5 with the rear at +2.5. To my naked ear the sub disappeared and put the Crest amp from 10 o'clock to 2pm on the dial and the subs sound better. The JTR's are set to 70hz on the crossover setting and the sub at 80 thx setting. What I notice now, is a more balanced and reserved sound from the system but the highs are REALLY high. My concert going ears actually had to decrease the volume during the guitar solos on the dvd as they were just too loud and piercing...never had to do that before with this setup.

I also think the subs could deliver more punch. I know the new drivers will help...
post #6277 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

OK, making slight progress here. Took the sub setting within the Onkyo level calibration to 0 and the JTR's to -3.5 with the rear at +2.5. To my naked ear the sub disappeared and put the Crest amp from 10 o'clock to 2pm on the dial and the subs sound better. The JTR's are set to 70hz on the crossover setting and the sub at 80 thx setting. What I notice now, is a more balanced and reserved sound from the system but the highs are REALLY high. My concert going ears actually had to decrease the volume during the guitar solos on the dvd as they were just too loud and piercing...never had to do that before with this setup.
I also think the subs could deliver more punch. I know the new drivers will help...
If I read right the XPA-5 does not have gain settings, so you need the attenuators. They are available at parts express. I also have an extra mic Onkyo Audyssey mic lying around if you need it assuming the 885 and 886 use the same model. I thought I lost mine in a move, but found it the same day the new one I ordered came in. A RadioShack sound level meter will do fine setting the levels pre-Audyssey. I am sure there are better ones around, but the RadioShack one is very inexpensive and will do the trick.
post #6278 of 18511
Dang, guess that omnimic sale was only for a day or two. I'm considering trying the minidsp umik-1 as a cheaper alternative.
post #6279 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

If I read right the XPA-5 does not have gain settings, so you need the attenuators. They are available at parts express. I also have an extra mic Onkyo Audyssey mic lying around if you need it assuming the 885 and 886 use the same model. I thought I lost mine in a move, but found it the same day the new one I ordered came in. A RadioShack sound level meter will do fine setting the levels pre-Audyssey. I am sure there are better ones around, but the RadioShack one is very inexpensive and will do the trick.

So this is another area where I get lost. Here I am thinking I want more, more SPL, more hard hitting bass and certainly more power from my amps and now an attenuator may help my stereo? Sometimes it's just easier to let a professional have at it but last time I did that I was unhappy with the sound and just went to EQ off in the settings. At this point I just might to get Jeff out here some how and let him work his magic.
post #6280 of 18511
Im in the USA I forgot about caps that store power,also about the levels with triple 12 & Onkyo pre-pro I had the same problem with my Onkyo 5507 LCR triple 12s & RMK recommened -10 attenuators & it fixed my problems with balance of all my jtrs.
post #6281 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

If I read right the XPA-5 does not have gain settings, so you need the attenuators. They are available at parts express. I also have an extra mic Onkyo Audyssey mic lying around if you need it assuming the 885 and 886 use the same model. I thought I lost mine in a move, but found it the same day the new one I ordered came in. A RadioShack sound level meter will do fine setting the levels pre-Audyssey. I am sure there are better ones around, but the RadioShack one is very inexpensive and will do the trick.

So this is another area where I get lost. Here I am thinking I want more, more SPL, more hard hitting bass and certainly more power from my amps and now an attenuator may help my stereo? Sometimes it's just easier to let a professional have at it but last time I did that I was unhappy with the sound and just went to EQ off in the settings. At this point I just might to get Jeff out here some how and let him work his magic.

The attenuators are placed between your SSP and your amp. You won't lose anything because your speaker levels in the 886 will just get set higher, but Audyssey will be able to apply it's room correction more effectively.

You are right that with the components you have, your system should be phenomenal.

If you are using RCA's you would need these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=266-244

If you are using XLR, which I expect you are, you would need 3 of these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=240-412

Again, if you need it, I will be happy to mail you my extra mic.

Of course, if Jeff is available, that would be even better.
post #6282 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by dholmes54 View Post

Carp I hope your little girl is ok,she a beautiful little girl & its bad that she broke her arm at xmas time, one good thing she didnt have to have surgery! I know how she feels Ive fx 16 bones in my life.Your HT is GREAT!!!! im jealous!!!

Thanks dholmes. You must be some kind of adrenaline junkie to have had that many fractures!!

Hey guys, is there anything I can do about the fact that reference is above 0 on my receiver? Using the Disney WOW disk (which I've been told is accurate) test tones I'm below 0 on the master volume with the individual LCR speakers at -12, or as low as they will go. Not a huge deal, but I want 0 to mean reference.

I understand that the attenuators go in between the pre amp or receiver and the amp. Well, I don't use an amp just a Pioneer Elite receiver so that won't work.
post #6283 of 18511
Almost 1:30 AM and I can't pry myself off the couch and drag my sorry butt to bed because I can't stop listening. Tonight's playlist included Paradise Lost, Katatonia, Pantera, Type O Negative, and The Gathering. Floods by Pantera now playing, sounds great man, isn't this supposed to be a crappy recording??

-edit- NP Sepultura - Roots album. Never really liked it, especially compared to Chaos AD and even more so Arise. I'm finding myself giving it more of a chance tonight...
Edited by carp - 12/23/12 at 11:53pm
post #6284 of 18511
Well I had to take today off to wait at home for FedEx to come with my speakers. Hope they don't come later in the day lol, would prefer they come so I can go into work and get some stuff done!

Would be the worst if they just never showed up today though!
post #6285 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dholmes54 View Post

Carp I hope your little girl is ok,she a beautiful little girl & its bad that she broke her arm at xmas time, one good thing she didnt have to have surgery! I know how she feels Ive fx 16 bones in my life.Your HT is GREAT!!!! im jealous!!!

Thanks dholmes. You must be some kind of adrenaline junkie to have had that many fractures!!

Hey guys, is there anything I can do about the fact that reference is above 0 on my receiver? Using the Disney WOW disk (which I've been told is accurate) test tones I'm below 0 on the master volume with the individual LCR speakers at -12, or as low as they will go. Not a huge deal, but I want 0 to mean reference.

I understand that the attenuators go in between the pre amp or receiver and the amp. Well, I don't use an amp just a Pioneer Elite receiver so that won't work.

I had been wondering about this. In a pre HDMI world, you could have put line level attenuators between your source and the receiver. I guess you could still put speaker level attenuators between the receiver and the speakers, (if such a thing exists), but is it worth messing with the sound.

One more option, my SSP lets me adjust the level of individual sources. If your's can do that, you may have some more room to adjust the input to get reference at 0.
post #6286 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Thanks dholmes. You must be some kind of adrenaline junkie to have had that many fractures!!
Hey guys, is there anything I can do about the fact that reference is above 0 on my receiver? Using the Disney WOW disk (which I've been told is accurate) test tones I'm below 0 on the master volume with the individual LCR speakers at -12, or as low as they will go. Not a huge deal, but I want 0 to mean reference.
I understand that the attenuators go in between the pre amp or receiver and the amp. Well, I don't use an amp just a Pioneer Elite receiver so that won't work.
no adrenaline junkie just baddd luck!!!
post #6287 of 18511
I'm playing with the Omnimic today, the plan was to measure the Submersives in all different configurations but I'm already side tracked. This has me scratching my head.

Here is a measurement of the Noesis full range from my main LP. The black line is when my receiver is set to "pure direct" and the blue line is when my receiver is on normal stereo, mains set to large no sub. What the hell, shouldn't the response be the same?




So, I decided to try a measurement up close. This is with the mic a couple of feet away from the right speaker. Same thing, black line is pure direct and blue line is normal stereo. Now they match up... makes no sense to me. I understand why the frequency response will be totally different back at my LP, but why the difference between pure direct and normal stereo full range with no subs when measuring from the LP, and then up close that difference is gone??



Both graphs are 1/12 smoothing. Man, the Noesis line is really smooth, much smoother with the up close measurement than my eD's or Magnepans were when Luke kamp had his omnimic over here.

The speakers were left in their places close to the corners, I'm guessing that's why there is a bump between 100 and 200 hz.

Every speaker I've measured in here has had that drop off between 10khz and 20khz, the Magnepans and eD's dropped off sharper than this however.

Ok, back to playing until the wife gets home.
post #6288 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

Just curious if you guys with JTR's and Caps are frequently tweaking your EQ setting, gain on amps, etc. What may not have helped me initially is having someone install and hook my system without any knowledge of the equipment I have. When they ran Audyssey it really toned down the system, especially the LCR Triple 12's. They also weren't too familiar with the passive Caps and the Crest amp. I'm at the point now where running it with no EQ has the fronts a bit bright and I am constantly adjusting the gain on the Crest amp for the Caps. Something tells me most or all of the settings are incorrect.
I'm leaning towards having this thing EQ'd and set up properly before making any upgrades (except for the drivers on the Caps).

An spl meter is a must. Also, about how loud do you normally listen on the master volume? I know this isn't going to be accurate as you don't have an spl meter. I think you will not be that discouraged if you go scoop one, to not use it. It really will open your mind to what your system is doing. Why? Well I haven't liked audyssey at all until I started adjusting some of the settings after it ran. It did to my JTR's the same thing you mentioned. So now, I let audyssey run, then I go back and set all crossovers to 80hz (which is a good stopping point for the t-12's) and let the subs take over from there. I then take my cheapo radio shack spl meter and make sure that all speakers are set to 75dB's. If I am not using Audyssey at all, then I usually bump all the surrounds up about 2-3dB and the subs I always keep up around 5-9dB for movie watching. One other thing, is that after audyssey runs, and you only listen still at -15 to-10 dB on the main volume dial, the problem may be you need to engage dynamicEQ. Wish I was closer and we could knock this out in a good afternoon.

Do you have any room treatments? hardwood floors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

After reading a lot on this thread and others, I set all the levels on my mains and subs to 0 on my SSP, then using the gains on my amps set the levels at my main listening position to 75 db. Once that was accomplished, I ran Audyssey again and was much happier with the results. I have the older version in the Onkyo PR-SC885. I am sure your multiple subs makes things a little more difficult unless you have the XT32 version of Audyssey, but that may be a cheap fix to your problem. The problem seems to be that high efficiency speakers like your T12's end up being set to the maximum -12 by Audyssey and Audyssey can't properly apply it's eq settings. If your amps don't have gain settings people have bought attenuators to solve the problem.

This is very important. The parts express attenuators are cheap and worth a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Anybody on the JTR forum, if you guys are in the market for a Projector, I recommend looking at the Sony HW50. Just like I sing the praises of JTR ever since I go them, the Sony HW50 is just as impressive for the picture side of things. Lots of glowing reviews in industry publications and I can vouch for it. Very impressive for the money.

Oh nice, now you tell me! Just pulled the trigger on a BenQ w7000, maybe I should drum up some additional funds...
post #6289 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'm playing with the Omnimic today, the plan was to measure the Submersives in all different configurations but I'm already side tracked. This has me scratching my head.
Here is a measurement of the Noesis full range from my main LP. The black line is when my receiver is set to "pure direct" and the blue line is when my receiver is on normal stereo, mains set to large no sub. What the hell, shouldn't the response be the same?

So, I decided to try a measurement up close. This is with the mic a couple of feet away from the right speaker. Same thing, black line is pure direct and blue line is normal stereo. Now they match up... makes no sense to me. I understand why the frequency response will be totally different back at my LP, but why the difference between pure direct and normal stereo full range with no subs when measuring from the LP, and then up close that difference is gone??

Both graphs are 1/12 smoothing. Man, the Noesis line is really smooth, much smoother with the up close measurement than my eD's or Magnepans were when Luke kamp had his omnimic over here.
The speakers were left in their places close to the corners, I'm guessing that's why there is a bump between 100 and 200 hz.
Every speaker I've measured in here has had that drop off between 10khz and 20khz, the Magnepans and eD's dropped off sharper than this however.
Ok, back to playing until the wife gets home.

Tha up top rolloff is also going to be your mic. The main difference you are seeing between the two response looks to be if you have audyssey engaged it will use it for stereo, and not for direct. I have had similar things happen. Good looking response tho. real nice Clark!!!!
post #6290 of 18511
Merry Christmas to all my JTR Buddies!
post #6291 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Merry Christmas to all my JTR Buddies!

Same here, I hope you all have a great Christmas and a very Happy New Year ... smile.gif
post #6292 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Tha up top rolloff is also going to be your mic. The main difference you are seeing between the two response looks to be if you have audyssey engaged it will use it for stereo, and not for direct. I have had similar things happen. Good looking response tho. real nice Clark!!!!

Haha, thanks Eddie.

That's the thing though, I don't have audyssey and I made sure the MCACC eq was off when doing the measuring.
post #6293 of 18511
FedEx just delivered me my Christmas gift:



Gonna see if I can get these downstairs and unboxed myself but I'm not sure. I may just wait to have my wife help me get them to the stairs then slide them down myself.

Too bad I have to go to the inlaws tonight and tomorrow at other family functions lol!

And I hope UPS brings my monoprice order with all my wires and speaker stuff too!
post #6294 of 18511
Dont slide em on the back, those dual keg taps will get in the way. also, a handtruck is a wonderful thing to have around.
post #6295 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Merry Christmas to all my JTR Buddies!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Same here, I hope you all have a great Christmas and a very Happy New Year ... smile.gif

Nice Purbeast, keep the pics coming. It really isn't that bad moving them around in the boxes (especially when motivation is high! smile.gif). Just shimmy/rock them back and forth to the stairs and then slide.
post #6296 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Merry Christmas to all my JTR Buddies!
Yes, happy Holidays to everyone. Just got a bunch of blu rays from Amazon so in between gatherings I will be glued to the screen......been averaging a movie a day sine we finished the man cave :-)
post #6297 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'm playing with the Omnimic today, the plan was to measure the Submersives in all different configurations but I'm already side tracked. This has me scratching my head.
Here is a measurement of the Noesis full range from my main LP. The black line is when my receiver is set to "pure direct" and the blue line is when my receiver is on normal stereo, mains set to large no sub. What the hell, shouldn't the response be the same?

So, I decided to try a measurement up close. This is with the mic a couple of feet away from the right speaker. Same thing, black line is pure direct and blue line is normal stereo. Now they match up... makes no sense to me. I understand why the frequency response will be totally different back at my LP, but why the difference between pure direct and normal stereo full range with no subs when measuring from the LP, and then up close that difference is gone??

Both graphs are 1/12 smoothing. Man, the Noesis line is really smooth, much smoother with the up close measurement than my eD's or Magnepans were when Luke kamp had his omnimic over here.
The speakers were left in their places close to the corners, I'm guessing that's why there is a bump between 100 and 200 hz.
Every speaker I've measured in here has had that drop off between 10khz and 20khz, the Magnepans and eD's dropped off sharper than this however.
Ok, back to playing until the wife gets home.

Those look good Carp, I'm anxious to get my OmniMic and see how my in-room graphs compare. Unfortunately shipping is slow this time of year and it's looking like next week :-(

Did you take measurements with the Submersives?
post #6298 of 18511
Working on it now, man time flies when your are taking measurements!!
post #6299 of 18511
Here is one with the Submersives. I'll try it at higher volumes and see if it holds up down low. This is with some eq tweaking on my sms-1, pulling down peaks and boosting just once - a bit at 100hz.



4 of the 5 other seating positions look like crap though, so I'm going to play around with sub placement later this week.
post #6300 of 18511
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Here is one with the Submersives. I'll try it at higher volumes and see if it holds up down low. This is with some eq tweaking on my sms-1, pulling down peaks and boosting just once - a bit at 100hz.

4 of the 5 other seating positions look like crap though, so I'm going to play around with sub placement later this week.

CARP the in room response looks great. Even in the graph without the subs the Neosis do well in the mid bass lower/midbass region, really smooth looking for only 1/12 smoothing. I ended up ordering the vented too in hopes of having a little more flexibility on xo setting. in this graph where is you xo set at and at what slope?
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