or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Official JTR speaker thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official JTR speaker thread - Page 212

post #6331 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'm not kidding when I say it's becoming clear that I need more subs. From the curve you can see I'm only getting around 10 more db between 20 and 40 hz even though the volume is 15 db higher. Also, last night I re-watched the Art of Flight and it's obvious my subs can't keep up with the speakers when I want to get crazy with the bass.

Time to sell the Noesis so you can get more subs eek.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif

My S2 keeps up with my T12s...but I am likely going to get another S2 in the next few months. Don't you already have dual Submersives??? You sure this isn't AVS addiction 101 getting the best of you tongue.gif
post #6332 of 18369
Omnimic
http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/omnimic-v2-precision-measurement-system.html

alternatively you can use a different mic and REW

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
post #6333 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

I had a similar dip @just below 100hz, right above my 80hz xo. Playing with xo slopes and sub distance fixed the dip I had. The probelm I have is although I can PEQ my subs separately i can only have one distance setting for the sub b/c my reciever only has one sub out. Does you pre pro or receiver have more than one sub out? Bass management is a lot of fun if you have a good PEQ and can make a huge difference in performance.

I only have one sub out from my receiver. I tried everything I could think of, I tried different sub distances, different crossovers, tweaking with the sms-1, nothing works. Yeah, I wonder if I had another sub out and used a different distance setting if that would work.

However, the speakers only with no subs on show the same dip at 100 hz, so that leads me to believe it's not a crossover issue.
post #6334 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by purbeast View Post

How do you guys make these graphs? Is it hardware + software?

Purbeast, you should buy an omnimic. For months people were telling me to get one and I finally did - should have done it a long time ago. It really let's you start "seeing" what you are hearing and besides it's really fun to tinker with IMO.
post #6335 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Time to sell the Noesis so you can get more subs eek.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif
My S2 keeps up with my T12s...but I am likely going to get another S2 in the next few months. Don't you already have dual Submersives??? You sure this isn't AVS addiction 101 getting the best of you tongue.gif

Yeah, the Submersives keep up fine at sane levels but if I want to really get crazy for a demo, the speakers keep asking for more but I can find the limits of the subs. I want the same limitless feeling from my subs that I have from the speakers. 99 percent of the time I won't need it.... but I still want it!! smile.gif

I'll have to wait and see how much of my money the govt gives back in early 2013 and then go from there.
post #6336 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Purbeast, you should buy an omnimic. For months people were telling me to get one and I finally did - should have done it a long time ago. It really let's you start "seeing" what you are hearing and besides it's really fun to tinker with IMO.

Yea damn $300 is quite a bit to spend for that right now lol. That may be something down the road. My list right now has my surround speakers + whatever I'm going to use to control my HT (leaning towards iPad with Roomie but not 100% sure yet).

It does seem pretty cool to mess around with though. And I'm guessing that it can help you with speaker placement to get the ideal positioning and what not. My laptop is currently out of commission too so I'm not sure if I would even be able to use it just yet.
post #6337 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yeah, the Submersives keep up fine at sane levels but if I want to really get crazy for a demo, the speakers keep asking for more but I can find the limits of the subs. I want the same limitless feeling from my subs that I have from the speakers. 99 percent of the time I won't need it.... but I still want it!! smile.gif
I'll have to wait and see how much of my money the govt gives back in early 2013 and then go from there.

I know what you mean. I have demoed that daedmau5 track from Art of Flight many times now and each time it seems I end up running it up to +10 or so. The energy put out at that level is just crazy. It's fun to see the look on peoples faces and it's interesting how reasonable reference seems after playing it that loud.. Keeping it to short duration is key ... wink.gif
post #6338 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yeah, the Submersives keep up fine at sane levels but if I want to really get crazy for a demo, the speakers keep asking for more but I can find the limits of the subs. I want the same limitless feeling from my subs that I have from the speakers. 99 percent of the time I won't need it.... but I still want it!! smile.gif
I'll have to wait and see how much of my money the govt gives back in early 2013 and then go from there.

Time to get the Orbit Shifter = TWO Cap S2s above 20hz.
post #6339 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I know what you mean. I have demoed that daedmau5 track from Art of Flight many times now and each time it seems I end up running it up to +10 or so. The energy put out at that level is just crazy. It's fun to see the look on peoples faces and it's interesting how reasonable reference seems after playing it that loud.. Keeping it to short duration is key ... wink.gif

I went to reference with the master volume. I had the subs 5db hot but wanted more but when I turned up the subs any more than that they didn't get any louder. The speakers were loafing. tongue.gif
post #6340 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I know what you mean. I have demoed that daedmau5 track from Art of Flight many times now and each time it seems I end up running it up to +10 or so. The energy put out at that level is just crazy. It's fun to see the look on peoples faces and it's interesting how reasonable reference seems after playing it that loud.. Keeping it to short duration is key ... wink.gif

Keep an eye on the PE website. I was able to pick it up on sale for $200 delivered plus they threw in a free mic stand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I went to reference with the master volume. I had the subs 5db hot but wanted more but when I turned up the subs any more than that they didn't get any louder. The speakers were loafing. tongue.gif

I'm surprised the dual HP's don't have more to give than that. confused.gif
post #6341 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I went to reference with the master volume. I had the subs 5db hot but wanted more but when I turned up the subs any more than that they didn't get any louder. The speakers were loafing. tongue.gif
You just have not had enough time with all your new equipment yet. Keep playin around for a couple weeks and you will get it right. I know it is not the euipment so your dissatisfaction is somewhere else. IMO your next step should be a capable AVR with MultiEQ XT32. It will make a huge difference in the setting up process. I can only run my subs 3dbs hotter than my T12's.
If in the end you are still craving more bass then you need to go to the Orbit Shifter and stay away from another sealed design(unless it has 18' dual opposed woofers)smile.gif
It took me about 10 days to get things going into a positive direction but now I can make a nose bleed and great bass gives me the Hebe Jebes or feels like my skin is crawling.
Chris

What is your amp set on for the SubM HP's? Mine are 4 clicks from being turned off and Audyssey sets trim to -10. I then raise them to -7. room is 3600 cu feet.
I "pour the coal" to my system and it always overwhelms. Your will too I am sure of that.wink.gif
post #6342 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I'm surprised the dual HP's don't have more to give than that. confused.gif

They did when they were in the same corner. Also, I don't know if all my massive eqing with the sms-1 neutered them a bit. I didn't do any boosting, but I did a TON of pulling down at different frequencies.

My room does seem to suck up the bass and I sit in the middle of it (well, not directly in the middle but not that far off).

About 120 db's C weighted slow response is the highest I've recorded in my room regardless of sub eq. The Caps also maxed out at 120 db's.
post #6343 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

You just have not had enough time with all your new equipment yet. Keep playin around for a couple weeks and you will get it right. I know it is not the euipment so your dissatisfaction is somewhere else. IMO your next step should be a capable AVR with MultiEQ XT32. It will make a huge difference in the setting up process. I can only run my subs 3dbs hotter than my T12's.
If in the end you are still craving more bass then you need to go to the Orbit Shifter and stay away from another sealed design(unless it has 18' dual opposed woofers)smile.gif
It took me about 10 days to get things going into a positive direction but now I can make a nose bleed and great bass gives me the Hebe Jebes or feels like my skin is crawling.
Chris
What is your amp set on for the SubM HP's? Mine are 4 clicks from being turned off and Audyssey sets trim to -10. I then raise them to -7. room is 3600 cu feet.
I "pour the coal" to my system and it always overwhelms. Your will too I am sure of that.wink.gif

Don't get me wrong, for the VAST majority of the time the output of my subs is VERY impressive. However, I want no limits. I'm planning on going DIY dual opposed with 18 inch drivers, 2 boxes or 4 drivers total. That should do it for me.

As far as running subs hot goes, I don't have to do that very much with the Noesis. Before I had these speakers I was usually 8-10 db's hot, but now I run anywhere from flat to +5, and most often like you just +2 or +3. However, when I REALLY crank the db's for bass heavy music like the art of flight scene I want more bass than normal listening. Flat to +5 doesn't do it for me at those crazy levels.
post #6344 of 18369
I think Chris ^ got it right Carp. Best to let the dust settle before you make any moves. I'm exaggerating the "cool factor" of reference plus as only crazy hobbyists like us really care. Most folks like the MV at -10 or so for movies and not much louder for concerts and that group includes me wink.gif.

Since the SMS-1 only supports a single output it isn't very useful with anything but collocated subs. That (and the addition of Audyssey XT32) is why I sold my SMS-1.

Edit,

Looks like you are a man on a mission so forget what I said ... I say good luck and have fun cause life is short. cool.gif.
Edited by RMK! - 12/26/12 at 11:29am
post #6345 of 18369
I'll know more after this weekend. A friend and avs member mr smithers is bringing over his brand new DIY dual opposed sub with 2 of those new 18" Dayton drivers - the same sub Gorilla built (well, Gorilla built 4 of them).

We are going to compare to a Submersive, this should be interesting. I have a feeling the Dayton will have more output based on Gorilla's impressions. I could add a couple of these on the cheap compared to adding Submersives. We'll see... looking forward to it. My wife is such a good sport, another night with a house full of dudes and the walls caving in. biggrin.gif
post #6346 of 18369
Carp
I go through the same dilemma as I love subwoofers and admitting that I am satisfied feels like I am giving in or giving up. My problem is I love the clean sound that a sealed sub puts out but I want the physical feeling of a horn or ported sub. I wish I would have just bit the bullet originally and bought the OS's. I did not because I WAS SCARED of them.rolleyes.gif I still feel like a dumbass.
I take comfort knowing that the SubM XL is right around the corner and will work great with the HP's. I believe that in my case with what I want it will take more multiple sealed subs in general. If I had 4 HP's then I would have no problem except for the obvious subwoofer addiction.
Chris
post #6347 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'll know more after this weekend. A friend and avs member mr smithers is bringing over his brand new DIY dual opposed sub with 2 of those new 18" Dayton drivers - the same sub Gorilla built (well, Gorilla built 4 of them).
We are going to compare to a Submersive, this should be interesting. I have a feeling the Dayton will have more output based on Gorilla's impressions. I could add a couple of these on the cheap compared to adding Submersives. We'll see... looking forward to it. My wife is such a good sport, another night with a house full of dudes and the walls caving in. biggrin.gif

Two things, unless you are running shelf filter on the dayton, it won't quite best the SubM below 20hz or so. above that, depending on what you are using to power that box, you should be impressed, especially when you look at the cost to performance standpoint.

Chris,

The "feeling" of the ported is easily achievable with a properly EQ/LT'd sealed system. I will report back when I finish all four of my dual 18 boxes biggrin.gif
post #6348 of 18369
BTW Carp, when taking spl readings for how loud and not calibrating you want the meter on fast and max for peaks. If you hit 120 dBs on slow it will be higher on fast and max. The problem with my digital mic is that it does not go high enough.
post #6349 of 18369
Update on my system. A HUGE thank you to Gorilla83 (Andrew) for coming over this am and spending a few hours tinkering with things. What he found was a few loose connections on the speakon connectors, an air leak on the one Cap (stripped screw) and the settings within the Onkyo menu were all screwed up. What I have now is a much, much better sounding system.

If I remember correctly after Audyssey was run the Triple 12LF's (LCR) are running -7, -6.5, -7 with the rears (B&W DM603s) at about +2. The Caps are now at +2.5. All speakers are crossed over at 80hz.

Sounds much fuller and complete. No huge gaps in the sound, the surround sound is much more complete and with the Caps and Crest amp set properly they sound good for the first time ever. Who knew an air leak on the one Cap would make such a huge difference?

I'm pretty happy now with the sound. I do notice the one Cap passive radiator is more active than the other.

Looking into the future I still want to improve the "punch" and bass of the sound. The hi's are certainly there but I want that feeling of sitting front row at a concert.

Damn this forum, it always has me thinking of the next upgrade.
post #6350 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

BTW Carp, when taking spl readings for how loud and not calibrating you want the meter on fast and max for peaks. If you hit 120 dBs on slow it will be higher on fast and max. The problem with my digital mic is that it does not go high enough.

Oh, ok. with peak I've hit 129 before.
post #6351 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Oh, ok. with peak I've hit 129 before.

That is great but the question is where and how much THD? The THD measuring is fun but dangerous at high levels. I was told that there is a THD function on sweeps now and omnimic has them as well.
post #6352 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

That is great but the question is where and how much THD? The THD measuring is fun but dangerous at high levels. I was told that there is a THD function on sweeps now and omnimic has them as well.

Yeah, I see I do have that, I'll have to play with it.

Oh, I'm not pounding my chest about my spl number that's for sure. This room eats up the bass and I don't buy that 129 number anyway. I've experienced bass over 130 and this isn't even in the same ball park. That's why I think 120 is more likely. Like you say though, who knows how much disortion I'm getting. Did you see my graphs comparing with a 15 db increase in volume? Between 20 and 40 hz I only got a 10 db bump instead of 15, that says a lot right there doesn't it?

Good it's settled. I need more subs. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
post #6353 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yeah, I see I do have that, I'll have to play with it.
Oh, I'm not pounding my chest about my spl number that's for sure. This room eats up the bass and I don't buy that 129 number anyway. I've experienced bass over 130 and this isn't even in the same ball park. That's why I think 120 is more likely. Like you say though, who knows how much disortion I'm getting. Did you see my graphs comparing with a 15 db increase in volume? Between 20 and 40 hz I only got a 10 db bump instead of 15, that says a lot right there doesn't it?
Good it's settled. I need more subs. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
M,aybe just 1 sub if you get an OS. One OS and two submersives would be awesome.
post #6354 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

M,aybe just 1 sub if you get an OS. One OS and two submersives would be awesome.
I have been considering that and I just do not think they will level match and play well together.
What do others on here think? I would love to be wrong on this !!!
Chris
post #6355 of 18369
Just wanna say for all the JTR/metal fans out there. I've been sitting here basically all day listening to music and I swear the Noesis just keep sounding better. I've listened to all kinds of metal, from Devin Townsend's Infinity and Terria albums to the new Anthrax album (btw, how crazy good is that album?!?), Iron Maiden's Somewhere in Time, Edge of Sanity's Crimson, and more.

Not only is there no hint of fatigue but they just keep sounding better.

Oh, I fixed my white outlets on the front wall problem. I have a couple of GIK 244 bass traps/panels that I wasn't using so I put them up front to cover up the white outlets.

post #6356 of 18369
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

M,aybe just 1 sub if you get an OS. One OS and two submersives would be awesome.

Oh, I know. I've had an OS in here and it was nuts.
post #6357 of 18369
Carp, I wouldn't build with the daytons if I was you. I know they are popular because they are fairly cheap but if I was you, I'd go a little higher end. Something like the UXL 18 or similar. I've built enough subs to know, either double up what you think you'll need ( 8 x 18's) or get higher quality drivers and amp's right from the start. Thats just me. I'd build 4 boxes with 8 drivers or use 4 better quality drivers.
Edited by N8DOGG - 12/26/12 at 5:41pm
post #6358 of 18369
Carp needs 4 Submersives! SQ with my 4 is so clean you feel it in your bones.
post #6359 of 18369
Got my first chance to hear the Neosis today at Jeff's shop. They sounded great, exceptional detail in the mids and highs. Going to be great to get them home when they are finished. I could see running the Neosis with a really high powered amp and adding another OS to the mix. We'll see after I have in room response measurements.
Edited by lbrown105 - 12/26/12 at 3:33pm
post #6360 of 18369
Carp
If you can get those SubM HP's on the inside of the Noesis you should hear/feel an improvement. IMO location is at least part of what your missing in bass. It made a huge difference in mine.
2 cents
Chris
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Official JTR speaker thread