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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 212

post #6331 of 8265
12/25/12 at 9:47am
Would a denon 4520ci good enough to power the noesis front 3?
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post #6332 of 8265
12/25/12 at 10:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_hs10 View Post

Would a denon 4520ci good enough to power the noesis front 3?

Short answer ... yes!
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post #6333 of 8265
12/25/12 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Then you just discovered that the AVR is still doing some kind of signal manipulation in stereo mode smile.gif. Perhaps the standard bass/treble is at fault...or the manufacturers house curve in stereo mode. I suppose that's why they made a "pure" mode.

Ok, gotcha, makes sense - thanks.
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post #6334 of 8265
12/25/12 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by purbeast View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Nice beast!! Like the others have said, wait until you turn on the subs. biggrin.gif

Hoping to get a temporary setup running the front 5 by this weekend. I have all my wiring and stuff but I won't be able to do the in wall wiring until the first weekend in January.

Would it be a bad idea to have my receiver/amp/ps3 sitting on top of the center T12, just like for a week or so, and actually using it? Could the magnets in the woofers jack up any of the electronics in those items?

Reason I'm asking is because I plan to have a wall plate literally right behind the center speaker and running the front 5 speakers from that jack. And if I can set the receiver right on top of it, I can cut the wires the length that I will actually be using when the in wall wiring is all finished. But if it's bad idea to have electronics sitting on the speaker I definitely don't want to do that.

no don't put the ps3 on top of a magnetic speaker or you risk losing data on the harddrive. the amps and avr will be fine to put on the speaker. hard drives work by magnetics and so the ps3, Xbox, or your pc should stay far away.
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post #6335 of 8265
12/25/12 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

At the current moment I have a pair of Paradigm Signature S8'S and a Signature C5 (all v3), along with a pair of Paradigm Monitor Surround 3's and a Paradigm Sub 25
Will they crossover fine with my Sub 25 (the built in ARC software on my MRX says my Sub 25 can handle from 20Hz to 120Hz completely flat)? Can the price be negotiated down from the $1200 per speaker on their website? WILL I BE HAPPY WITH THE RESULTING SOUND?
The use in my HT room is 100% movie/sports viewing. NO MUSIC. AT ALL.
Thanks guys!

My previous system was a 7.2 comprised of the Sig S8's /C5 /S2'S /and ADP3's with a pair of Sub 25's. I traded up to a complete JTR system and don't miss a thing.

What surprises me is why you would pay up for all that Paradigm stuff and only use it on movies. Even with huge discounts. Anyways JTR are far superior for movies and only a small step back on music and even that is arguable depending on your priorities in that area.
Your non JTR surround speakers will NOT be able to keep up with the JTR mains. Trust me I tried just for kicks. The Sub 25's will be fine to keep and will integrate well. I do not reget making the change at all, but the standard disclaimer always applies here...Do try and find someone local who will let you audition them What I or others like may not be your idea of better. As far as negotiating the price down it's easy.

From the JTR site:
Buy four or more and save an additional 5%.
Buy eight or more and save an additional 10%.
Mix and match.
Accumulative for repeat customers.
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post #6336 of 8265
12/25/12 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by purbeast View Post

Sssooo i just brought them downstairs and got 2 of them setup since i only have 2 wires currently running.
Well my first impression is that these speakers are retarded and that i think this is going to be complete overkill for me lol. But at the same time, I could not BELIEVE how crisp and clear they were.
But damn i can already tell from the 10 minutes listening to these that this it the "movie theater" quality I wanted in my basement. and yes, i'm pretty sure it is total overkill lol. But hey it's better to be over qualified than under!
.

The setup looks fantastic Drew. I'm sure you will be even more pleased once you've had time to get your room together. I miss them already frown.gif and only the knowledge that I have Neosis's on the way as their replacements makes my long wait bearable.
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post #6337 of 8265
12/26/12 at 6:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

The setup looks fantastic Drew. I'm sure you will be even more pleased once you've had time to get your room together. I miss them already frown.gif and only the knowledge that I have Neosis's on the way as their replacements makes my long wait bearable.

Thanks again man, I'm definitely liking them the short time I've spent with them so far. I'm back at work today unfortunately so I can't play around with them during the day this week, but I'm hoping tonight to get some of it wired up and maybe have my front 5 wired up by tonight. I'm definitely excited about getting it up and running though, that is for sure!
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post #6338 of 8265
12/26/12 at 7:23am
Carp,

Can you readjust your graphs to show 5dB increments? It obviously won't look as smooth but will compare much better to most other graphs that can be found on AVS from other posters.

PurBeast,

Not sure if I like another Beast around here. haha!!! Regardless, glad you are blown away! It won't stop until you have watched every title you have, and then it may still not smile.gif also, you think you have bass now, those caps are going to kill you. When you looked at your AVR at -29.5 and it hasn't been calibrated, that can be very misleading. After Audyssey, it will usually set the T-12's at -12dB to get them attenuated enough. If your speaker trims are already set above 0 for L/R, then I can easily see how -29.5 dB is too loud for you.
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post #6339 of 8265
12/26/12 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Carp,
Can you readjust your graphs to show 5dB increments? It obviously won't look as smooth but will compare much better to most other graphs that can be found on AVS from other posters.

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't notice that. It's weird when I'm using the Omnimic it was in 5 db increments but my old snapshots like what you saw posted were 10. Today I tried another snapshot and it's in 5db increments so oh well, working fine now.

I un-stacked my subs and left one of them in the front right corner since that's where I get the most output down low, and everywhere else really. Then I tried the other sub all over the room and ended up with where I used to have it, in the left front corner.



It looks like the curve looses some of it's composure when I added 15db, not quite as flat.

That dip at 100 hz can't be removed. I tried that second sub all over the room including places in the middle of the room that would make no sense for a sub placement. The dip is still there. Even with the just the speakers and no sub the 100 hz dip is there.


I must have had my couch a little further back when I had the eD's and did those measurements but I don't want to scoot back due to my surround speaker placement - ehhhh it's all about finding the best compromise I guess.

Would having another sub(s) even do anything for that dip at 100?
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post #6340 of 8265
12/26/12 at 8:59am
I'm not kidding when I say it's becoming clear that I need more subs. From the curve you can see I'm only getting around 10 more db between 20 and 40 hz even though the volume is 15 db higher. Also, last night I re-watched the Art of Flight and it's obvious my subs can't keep up with the speakers when I want to get crazy with the bass.
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post #6341 of 8265
12/26/12 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't notice that. It's weird when I'm using the Omnimic it was in 5 db increments but my old snapshots like what you saw posted were 10. Today I tried another snapshot and it's in 5db increments so oh well, working fine now.
I un-stacked my subs and left one of them in the front right corner since that's where I get the most output down low, and everywhere else really. Then I tried the other sub all over the room and ended up with where I used to have it, in the left front corner.

It looks like the curve looses some of it's composure when I added 15db, not quite as flat.
That dip at 100 hz can't be removed. I tried that second sub all over the room including places in the middle of the room that would make no sense for a sub placement. The dip is still there. Even with the just the speakers and no sub the 100 hz dip is there.
I must have had my couch a little further back when I had the eD's and did those measurements but I don't want to scoot back due to my surround speaker placement - ehhhh it's all about finding the best compromise I guess.
Would having another sub(s) even do anything for that dip at 100?

I had a similar dip @just below 100hz, right above my 80hz xo. Playing with xo slopes and sub distance fixed the dip I had. The probelm I have is although I can PEQ my subs separately i can only have one distance setting for the sub b/c my reciever only has one sub out. Does you pre pro or receiver have more than one sub out? Bass management is a lot of fun if you have a good PEQ and can make a huge difference in performance.
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post #6342 of 8265
12/26/12 at 9:33am
How do you guys make these graphs? Is it hardware + software?
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post #6343 of 8265
12/26/12 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'm not kidding when I say it's becoming clear that I need more subs. From the curve you can see I'm only getting around 10 more db between 20 and 40 hz even though the volume is 15 db higher. Also, last night I re-watched the Art of Flight and it's obvious my subs can't keep up with the speakers when I want to get crazy with the bass.

Time to sell the Noesis so you can get more subs eek.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif

My S2 keeps up with my T12s...but I am likely going to get another S2 in the next few months. Don't you already have dual Submersives??? You sure this isn't AVS addiction 101 getting the best of you tongue.gif
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post #6344 of 8265
12/26/12 at 9:42am
Omnimic
http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/omnimic-v2-precision-measurement-system.html

alternatively you can use a different mic and REW

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
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post #6345 of 8265
12/26/12 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

I had a similar dip @just below 100hz, right above my 80hz xo. Playing with xo slopes and sub distance fixed the dip I had. The probelm I have is although I can PEQ my subs separately i can only have one distance setting for the sub b/c my reciever only has one sub out. Does you pre pro or receiver have more than one sub out? Bass management is a lot of fun if you have a good PEQ and can make a huge difference in performance.

I only have one sub out from my receiver. I tried everything I could think of, I tried different sub distances, different crossovers, tweaking with the sms-1, nothing works. Yeah, I wonder if I had another sub out and used a different distance setting if that would work.

However, the speakers only with no subs on show the same dip at 100 hz, so that leads me to believe it's not a crossover issue.
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post #6346 of 8265
12/26/12 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by purbeast View Post

How do you guys make these graphs? Is it hardware + software?

Purbeast, you should buy an omnimic. For months people were telling me to get one and I finally did - should have done it a long time ago. It really let's you start "seeing" what you are hearing and besides it's really fun to tinker with IMO.
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post #6347 of 8265
12/26/12 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Time to sell the Noesis so you can get more subs eek.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif
My S2 keeps up with my T12s...but I am likely going to get another S2 in the next few months. Don't you already have dual Submersives??? You sure this isn't AVS addiction 101 getting the best of you tongue.gif

Yeah, the Submersives keep up fine at sane levels but if I want to really get crazy for a demo, the speakers keep asking for more but I can find the limits of the subs. I want the same limitless feeling from my subs that I have from the speakers. 99 percent of the time I won't need it.... but I still want it!! smile.gif

I'll have to wait and see how much of my money the govt gives back in early 2013 and then go from there.
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post #6348 of 8265
12/26/12 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Purbeast, you should buy an omnimic. For months people were telling me to get one and I finally did - should have done it a long time ago. It really let's you start "seeing" what you are hearing and besides it's really fun to tinker with IMO.

Yea damn $300 is quite a bit to spend for that right now lol. That may be something down the road. My list right now has my surround speakers + whatever I'm going to use to control my HT (leaning towards iPad with Roomie but not 100% sure yet).

It does seem pretty cool to mess around with though. And I'm guessing that it can help you with speaker placement to get the ideal positioning and what not. My laptop is currently out of commission too so I'm not sure if I would even be able to use it just yet.
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post #6349 of 8265
12/26/12 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yeah, the Submersives keep up fine at sane levels but if I want to really get crazy for a demo, the speakers keep asking for more but I can find the limits of the subs. I want the same limitless feeling from my subs that I have from the speakers. 99 percent of the time I won't need it.... but I still want it!! smile.gif
I'll have to wait and see how much of my money the govt gives back in early 2013 and then go from there.

I know what you mean. I have demoed that daedmau5 track from Art of Flight many times now and each time it seems I end up running it up to +10 or so. The energy put out at that level is just crazy. It's fun to see the look on peoples faces and it's interesting how reasonable reference seems after playing it that loud.. Keeping it to short duration is key ... wink.gif
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post #6350 of 8265
12/26/12 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yeah, the Submersives keep up fine at sane levels but if I want to really get crazy for a demo, the speakers keep asking for more but I can find the limits of the subs. I want the same limitless feeling from my subs that I have from the speakers. 99 percent of the time I won't need it.... but I still want it!! smile.gif
I'll have to wait and see how much of my money the govt gives back in early 2013 and then go from there.

Time to get the Orbit Shifter = TWO Cap S2s above 20hz.
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post #6351 of 8265
12/26/12 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I know what you mean. I have demoed that daedmau5 track from Art of Flight many times now and each time it seems I end up running it up to +10 or so. The energy put out at that level is just crazy. It's fun to see the look on peoples faces and it's interesting how reasonable reference seems after playing it that loud.. Keeping it to short duration is key ... wink.gif

I went to reference with the master volume. I had the subs 5db hot but wanted more but when I turned up the subs any more than that they didn't get any louder. The speakers were loafing. tongue.gif
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post #6352 of 8265
12/26/12 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I know what you mean. I have demoed that daedmau5 track from Art of Flight many times now and each time it seems I end up running it up to +10 or so. The energy put out at that level is just crazy. It's fun to see the look on peoples faces and it's interesting how reasonable reference seems after playing it that loud.. Keeping it to short duration is key ... wink.gif

Keep an eye on the PE website. I was able to pick it up on sale for $200 delivered plus they threw in a free mic stand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I went to reference with the master volume. I had the subs 5db hot but wanted more but when I turned up the subs any more than that they didn't get any louder. The speakers were loafing. tongue.gif

I'm surprised the dual HP's don't have more to give than that. confused.gif
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post #6353 of 8265
12/26/12 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I went to reference with the master volume. I had the subs 5db hot but wanted more but when I turned up the subs any more than that they didn't get any louder. The speakers were loafing. tongue.gif
You just have not had enough time with all your new equipment yet. Keep playin around for a couple weeks and you will get it right. I know it is not the euipment so your dissatisfaction is somewhere else. IMO your next step should be a capable AVR with MultiEQ XT32. It will make a huge difference in the setting up process. I can only run my subs 3dbs hotter than my T12's.
If in the end you are still craving more bass then you need to go to the Orbit Shifter and stay away from another sealed design(unless it has 18' dual opposed woofers)smile.gif
It took me about 10 days to get things going into a positive direction but now I can make a nose bleed and great bass gives me the Hebe Jebes or feels like my skin is crawling.
Chris

What is your amp set on for the SubM HP's? Mine are 4 clicks from being turned off and Audyssey sets trim to -10. I then raise them to -7. room is 3600 cu feet.
I "pour the coal" to my system and it always overwhelms. Your will too I am sure of that.wink.gif
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post #6354 of 8265
12/26/12 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I'm surprised the dual HP's don't have more to give than that. confused.gif

They did when they were in the same corner. Also, I don't know if all my massive eqing with the sms-1 neutered them a bit. I didn't do any boosting, but I did a TON of pulling down at different frequencies.

My room does seem to suck up the bass and I sit in the middle of it (well, not directly in the middle but not that far off).

About 120 db's C weighted slow response is the highest I've recorded in my room regardless of sub eq. The Caps also maxed out at 120 db's.
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post #6355 of 8265
12/26/12 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

You just have not had enough time with all your new equipment yet. Keep playin around for a couple weeks and you will get it right. I know it is not the euipment so your dissatisfaction is somewhere else. IMO your next step should be a capable AVR with MultiEQ XT32. It will make a huge difference in the setting up process. I can only run my subs 3dbs hotter than my T12's.
If in the end you are still craving more bass then you need to go to the Orbit Shifter and stay away from another sealed design(unless it has 18' dual opposed woofers)smile.gif
It took me about 10 days to get things going into a positive direction but now I can make a nose bleed and great bass gives me the Hebe Jebes or feels like my skin is crawling.
Chris
What is your amp set on for the SubM HP's? Mine are 4 clicks from being turned off and Audyssey sets trim to -10. I then raise them to -7. room is 3600 cu feet.
I "pour the coal" to my system and it always overwhelms. Your will too I am sure of that.wink.gif

Don't get me wrong, for the VAST majority of the time the output of my subs is VERY impressive. However, I want no limits. I'm planning on going DIY dual opposed with 18 inch drivers, 2 boxes or 4 drivers total. That should do it for me.

As far as running subs hot goes, I don't have to do that very much with the Noesis. Before I had these speakers I was usually 8-10 db's hot, but now I run anywhere from flat to +5, and most often like you just +2 or +3. However, when I REALLY crank the db's for bass heavy music like the art of flight scene I want more bass than normal listening. Flat to +5 doesn't do it for me at those crazy levels.
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post #6356 of 8265
12/26/12 at 11:21am
I think Chris ^ got it right Carp. Best to let the dust settle before you make any moves. I'm exaggerating the "cool factor" of reference plus as only crazy hobbyists like us really care. Most folks like the MV at -10 or so for movies and not much louder for concerts and that group includes me wink.gif.

Since the SMS-1 only supports a single output it isn't very useful with anything but collocated subs. That (and the addition of Audyssey XT32) is why I sold my SMS-1.

Edit,

Looks like you are a man on a mission so forget what I said ... I say good luck and have fun cause life is short. cool.gif.
Edited by RMK! - 12/26/12 at 11:29am
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post #6357 of 8265
12/26/12 at 11:31am
I'll know more after this weekend. A friend and avs member mr smithers is bringing over his brand new DIY dual opposed sub with 2 of those new 18" Dayton drivers - the same sub Gorilla built (well, Gorilla built 4 of them).

We are going to compare to a Submersive, this should be interesting. I have a feeling the Dayton will have more output based on Gorilla's impressions. I could add a couple of these on the cheap compared to adding Submersives. We'll see... looking forward to it. My wife is such a good sport, another night with a house full of dudes and the walls caving in. biggrin.gif
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post #6358 of 8265
12/26/12 at 11:36am
Carp
I go through the same dilemma as I love subwoofers and admitting that I am satisfied feels like I am giving in or giving up. My problem is I love the clean sound that a sealed sub puts out but I want the physical feeling of a horn or ported sub. I wish I would have just bit the bullet originally and bought the OS's. I did not because I WAS SCARED of them.rolleyes.gif I still feel like a dumbass.
I take comfort knowing that the SubM XL is right around the corner and will work great with the HP's. I believe that in my case with what I want it will take more multiple sealed subs in general. If I had 4 HP's then I would have no problem except for the obvious subwoofer addiction.
Chris
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post #6359 of 8265
12/26/12 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'll know more after this weekend. A friend and avs member mr smithers is bringing over his brand new DIY dual opposed sub with 2 of those new 18" Dayton drivers - the same sub Gorilla built (well, Gorilla built 4 of them).
We are going to compare to a Submersive, this should be interesting. I have a feeling the Dayton will have more output based on Gorilla's impressions. I could add a couple of these on the cheap compared to adding Submersives. We'll see... looking forward to it. My wife is such a good sport, another night with a house full of dudes and the walls caving in. biggrin.gif

Two things, unless you are running shelf filter on the dayton, it won't quite best the SubM below 20hz or so. above that, depending on what you are using to power that box, you should be impressed, especially when you look at the cost to performance standpoint.

Chris,

The "feeling" of the ported is easily achievable with a properly EQ/LT'd sealed system. I will report back when I finish all four of my dual 18 boxes biggrin.gif
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post #6360 of 8265
12/26/12 at 2:39pm
BTW Carp, when taking spl readings for how loud and not calibrating you want the meter on fast and max for peaks. If you hit 120 dBs on slow it will be higher on fast and max. The problem with my digital mic is that it does not go high enough.
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