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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 246

post #7351 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinH View Post

Re: the Lofgren song, was it the acoustic live version or album version?
It is the acoustic live version of Keith Don't Go. I first heard the song at RMAF 2009 in about 4 different rooms. When I got home I bought the album and took the song to the KC speaker GTG last August. Tesseract and I had picked the same song. I also played it at the Omaha Home Theater Tour on my system. Later that night we played it again on the JTR Noesis.
post #7352 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

I am having a forum member over to check them out tomorrow. Any suggestions for demo material?

It will be mostly movies, since I am only able to play music via AirTunes right now.

This is what I was thinking so far:

Opening Scene from Art of Flight
Last Shadow scene from Avatar
Ironhide flipping over people in Transformers

I know there are many more, I just can't seem to think of them right now.

Great call with Art of Flight.

I would suggest the shootout scene in Open Range if you have access to it. It's only dvd, no blu-ray but it's crazy impressive on JTR's. Play it at or above reference and watch people jump!! I also love the opening scene in Iron Man 2, great surround, bass, and of course a classic by ACDC all in one scene - oh and dancing girlies too. smile.gif
post #7353 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Great call with Art of Flight.

I would suggest the shootout scene in Open Range if you have access to it. It's only dvd, no blu-ray but it's crazy impressive on JTR's. Play it at or above reference and watch people jump!! I also love the opening scene in Iron Man 2, great surround, bass, and of course a classic by ACDC all in one scene - oh and dancing girlies too. smile.gif

I don't have Open Range, but I have Iron Man 2. I will add it to the pile. Come to think of it, the end of Avengers is probably pretty good as well. There is always the escape of Tai Lung and the skadoosh from Kung Fu Panda, as well as the final battle in how to train your dragon, since I have mostly kids movies.
Edited by Jedirun - 2/18/13 at 7:53pm
post #7354 of 8265
Okay so I'm 100% going to go with the new 228HT speakers but now I'm going to have to get a new amp to power them. I have a Pioneer VSX-21TXH receiver and its only rated for 6 & 8ohm speakers, so now I have to decide what to do for an amp. I have been looking at an Emotiva XPA-3 for $600, but I'd be will to spend up $1500 for anything fromIng a 3 to 7 channel amp if its worth it. I was also looking at a 3 channel D-sonic M2-750-3.
I would love to hear some recommendations and feed back on some amps.
post #7355 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

IBrown
Man that is Nice. That computer set-up is sweet looking. Take your time and get fully aquainted with the new equipment then when ready please tell me what the overall improvements are over your T12's.
You have a Very Nice room.
Chris

Here are my impressions and comparison of the Noesis212HT and the T12LP's I used to own. In some cases I have measured room response differences and in others I have given speculation about design differences leading to what i am perceiving as sonic differences so take them as my opinion only.

So I have had more time with the Noesis LCR in my system and have tweaked the settings vs my original "drop in" almost a week ago. The biggest change I made was moving the crossover lower from 80hz,12db/oct to 60hz,12db/oct. I played with every combination in 5 hz increments and slope settings and settled on 60hz due to a smoother transition and less localization of my nearfield sub next to the couch, Just wanted to qualify that before giving further comparison between my T12lp and my Noesis 212HT. As posted in earlier graphs the vented is about 8-10hz stronger in the 50-80hz range which is about how they measure in free space also.

Smooth sounding mids and highs [/B]- So as stated earlier the biggest difference in sound is a smoother mid range and high end. I have found this to be true for both 2 channel music and blu ray movie content. It seems more noticeable on rock music where there is less dynamics and sustained higher spl's and frequencies. It leads to a lower fatigue factor on music that might be considered somehwat brighter or more harsh. I find my self actually lowering the bass (which I am addicted to) and becoming more addicted to the mid and higher end. I was running my house curve pretty steep with the T12lp, and I now find myself running it a little less aggressive towards the bass. I think this is something Carp also mentioned in some of his reviews.

Clarity- slightly more than the T12lp which is already outstanding. I have watched and listened to many familiar tracks and have noticed subtle things that were not percieved before. Measured less room reflection which could be a factor too.

Dynamics - Just as good or slightly better. The T12lp is already so good in this dimension, the only reason I say slightly more is the high end is voiced a little flatter on the Noesis and you can tell the difference but it does not sound harsh as explained above. I think part of what is going on here is if you look at the specs for the more expensive compression driver used in the Noesis it is never getting worked that hard and in fact could be driven to over 140dB and have sensitivity in the 115dB/watt range if set up that way. So the way it is set up in the Noesis it is only jogging even when hitting 120+ spl's. again the T12 is already awesome at this but slight advantage to the Noesis.

Imaging ((main seating positions)- Too close to call,without side by side A/B test. Less toe in with the Noesis due to space constraints behind the false wall..

The last thing that I noticed as a big improvement in my room was sound quality in the rear of the room. As previoulsy stated the sound, energy, imaging and clarity was much better about 20-25ft back. Obvious advantage of the horn design. For my multi purpose room this was a huge advantage as most of the music listening goes on in the rear of the room at the gaming table.
post #7356 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Okay so I'm 100% going to go with the new 228HT speakers but now I'm going to have to get a new amp to power them. I have a Pioneer VSX-21TXH receiver and its only rated for 6 & 8ohm speakers, so now I have to decide what to do for an amp. I have been looking at an Emotiva XPA-3 for $600, but I'd be will to spend up $1500 for anything fromIng a 3 to 7 channel amp if its worth it. I was also looking at a 3 channel D-sonic M2-750-3.
I would love to hear some recommendations and feed back on some amps.

I would wait and see how your reciever likes the JTR's. I've used 4 ohm speakers with receivers that weren't rated for 4 ohms many times. So many times that I don't even check for it anymore. My current receiver is a Pioneer Elite vsx 53 and I'd bet it's not rated for 4 ohms. I've never had an issue, even at 12 over reference.

Some people swear by amps, so I understand if that's what you want to do.
post #7357 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Okay so I'm 100% going to go with the new 228HT speakers but now I'm going to have to get a new amp to power them. I have a Pioneer VSX-21TXH receiver and its only rated for 6 & 8ohm speakers, so now I have to decide what to do for an amp. I have been looking at an Emotiva XPA-3 for $600, but I'd be will to spend up $1500 for anything fromIng a 3 to 7 channel amp if its worth it. I was also looking at a 3 channel D-sonic M2-750-3.
I would love to hear some recommendations and feed back on some amps.
I agree with carp. Wait and see how they do with your receiver. These speakers do my need much power to shine. I played mine with my receiver and now use cheap Audiosource amps with my pre/pro. They sound amazing either way. If you end up getting an amp. Don't break the bank. As long as the amp doesn't put out a hiss which the high efficiency speakers will amplify, you don't need to buy a super expensive amp. Many people are very happy with their Emotiva amps and JTR's.
post #7358 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I would wait and see how your reciever likes the JTR's. I've used 4 ohm speakers with receivers that weren't rated for 4 ohms many times. So many times that I don't even check for it anymore. My current receiver is a Pioneer Elite vsx 53 and I'd bet it's not rated for 4 ohms. I've never had an issue, even at 12 over reference.

Some people swear by amps, so I understand if that's what you want to do.

Okay perfect, thanks for the response Carp! I wasn't really looking to buy a new amp but thought I would have too. So it's good to hear that you've driven 4ohm speakers on receivers that weren't 4ohm rated. So what's the worse that would happen to the receive then? Would the receiver just shut down?
post #7359 of 8265
Ok but lest make this clear, these are 4ohm 101 dB sensitive speakers. Lets not confuse these with maggies or something with 86dB or under efficiency that run at 4 ohms, that will likely result in receiver crap out.
post #7360 of 8265
N8DOGG I'm not confusing these with 4ohm speakers that aren't efficient, I know they are super efficient but they are still 4ohm rated and my receiver isn't so I'd rather be safe then sorry so I asked. So nothing really needs to be made clear. As long as people have driven JTR speakers on receivers that weren't 4ohm rated without killing their receiver that's good enough for me.
post #7361 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

Here are my impressions and comparison of the Noesis212HT and the T12LP's I used to own. In some cases I have measured room response differences and in others I have given speculation about design differences leading to what i am perceiving as sonic differences so take them as my opinion only.

So I have had more time with the Noesis LCR in my system and have tweaked the settings vs my original "drop in" almost a week ago. The biggest change I made was moving the crossover lower from 80hz,12db/oct to 60hz,12db/oct. I played with every combination in 5 hz increments and slope settings and settled on 60hz due to a smoother transition and less localization of my nearfield sub next to the couch, Just wanted to qualify that before giving further comparison between my T12lp and my Noesis 212HT. As posted in earlier graphs the vented is about 8-10hz stronger in the 50-80hz range which is about how they measure in free space also.

Smooth sounding mids and highs [/B]- So as stated earlier the biggest difference in sound is a smoother mid range and high end. I have found this to be true for both 2 channel music and blu ray movie content. It seems more noticeable on rock music where there is less dynamics and sustained higher spl's and frequencies. It leads to a lower fatigue factor on music that might be considered somehwat brighter or more harsh. I find my self actually lowering the bass (which I am addicted to) and becoming more addicted to the mid and higher end. I was running my house curve pretty steep with the T12lp, and I now find myself running it a little less aggressive towards the bass. I think this is something Carp also mentioned in some of his reviews.

Clarity- slightly more than the T12lp which is already outstanding. I have watched and listened to many familiar tracks and have noticed subtle things that were not percieved before. Measured less room reflection which could be a factor too.

Dynamics - Just as good or slightly better. The T12lp is already so good in this dimension, the only reason I say slightly more is the high end is voiced a little flatter on the Noesis and you can tell the difference but it does not sound harsh as explained above. I think part of what is going on here is if you look at the specs for the more expensive compression driver used in the Noesis it is never getting worked that hard and in fact could be driven to over 140dB and have sensitivity in the 115dB/watt range if set up that way. So the way it is set up in the Noesis it is only jogging even when hitting 120+ spl's. again the T12 is already awesome at this but slight advantage to the Noesis.

Imaging ((main seating positions)- Too close to call,without side by side A/B test. Less toe in with the Noesis due to space constraints behind the false wall..

The last thing that I noticed as a big improvement in my room was sound quality in the rear of the room. As previoulsy stated the sound, energy, imaging and clarity was much better about 20-25ft back. Obvious advantage of the horn design. For my multi purpose room this was a huge advantage as most of the music listening goes on in the rear of the room at the gaming table.

Thanks for the review. Upgrading from the T12s and T8s to the Noesis and 228HT is something I am considering doing in the next 12months. I am 99%HT so I am trying to figure out if there will be a large "upgrade" in sound/experience since I don't listen to much music. Likely would not consider doing anything until the fall/winter as I turn my obsession to golf when it gets warmer out. Not to mention I just bought the JTR speakers so hard to justify for a little while longer. I do love my current speakers...I would upgrade just out of curiousity and because of the great reviews so far.
post #7362 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

Smooth sounding mids and highs - So as stated earlier the biggest difference in sound is a smoother mid range and high end. I have found this to be true for both 2 channel music and blu ray movie content. It seems more noticeable on rock music where there is less dynamics and sustained higher spl's and frequencies. It leads to a lower fatigue factor on music that might be considered somehwat brighter or more harsh. I find my self actually lowering the bass (which I am addicted to) and becoming more addicted to the mid and higher end.

This is exactly what I have noticed, good description. The fatigue factor is pretty much non-existent which is bad for the ears, I do have to be careful.
post #7363 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Thanks for the review. Upgrading from the T12s and T8s to the Noesis and 228HT is something I am considering doing in the next 12months. I am 99%HT so I am trying to figure out if there will be a large "upgrade" in sound/experience since I don't listen to much music. Likely would not consider doing anything until the fall/winter as I turn my obsession to golf when it gets warmer out. Not to mention I just bought the JTR speakers so hard to justify for a little while longer. I do love my current speakers...I would upgrade just out of curiousity and because of the great reviews so far.

Like you, I am mostly HT and I am inclined to see the performance delta as smaller than others (although I think lbrown was spot on). I suggest that in the coming year you satisfy that curiosity by visiting someone who has the Noesis and give them a listen.

Keep your head down ... smile.gif
post #7364 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

RMK!

Take a few minutes and listen to a quality copy of the Nils Lofgren song. It's phenomenal. Sounds good on any speaker - but flipping outstanding on the Noesis.

Downloaded this from Amazon (MP3) and it's a terrific piece of music that sounds great on the Noesis, thanks for the tip ... cool.gif
post #7365 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

N8DOGG I'm not confusing these with 4ohm speakers that aren't efficient, I know they are super efficient but they are still 4ohm rated and my receiver isn't so I'd rather be safe then sorry so I asked. So nothing really needs to be made clear. As long as people have driven JTR speakers on receivers that weren't 4ohm rated without killing their receiver that's good enough for me.

I have used my quintuples with Marantz SR6005 without any issues (the receiver is rated at 8 ohms) and then added two Crown XLS 1500s to drive the LCRs. The dynamics have certainly improved.

I was originally thinking about Emotiva XPA-3 but went with the recommendation of some members of this thread smile.gif Crowns are much lighter, provide more power and an extra channel for same price.

I would recommend the Crowns.
post #7366 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicators View Post

I have used my quintuples with Marantz SR6005 without any issues (the receiver is rated at 8 ohms) and then added two Crown XLS 1500s to drive the LCRs. The dynamics have certainly improved.

I was originally thinking about Emotiva XPA-3 but went with the recommendation of some members of this thread smile.gif Crowns are much lighter, provide more power and an extra channel for same price.

I would recommend the Crowns.

Are the crowns noisy?
post #7367 of 8265
Noisy to some may not be to others. A good rule of thumb is if it has a fan it makes noise. How much is too much? For me any fan noise is unacceptable. If it can be put into another room then the fan noise should not matter.
Crowns fans activate less often so they are a good choice in Pro amps.
Hope that helps
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 2/19/13 at 9:24am
post #7368 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Noisy to some may not be to others. A good rule of thumb is if it has a fan it makes noise. How much is too much? For me any fan noise is unacceptable. If it can be put into another room then the fan noise should not matter.
Crowns fans activate less often so they are a good choice in Pro amps.
Hope that helps
Chris

There is a fan on the back but I have yet to hear it smile.gif Google around and everyone seems to have the same experience. For me fan noise is unacceptable as well and I wouldn't have bought them if anyone have indicated that the fun frequently runs.

They are sitting on a wall mount shelf above my TV with a PS3 on top. No noise issues.

They only thing I don't like is a bright blue LED which stays on all the time. A black electric tape should fix it.
post #7369 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Noisy to some may not be to others. A good rule of thumb is if it has a fan it makes noise. How much is too much? For me any fan noise is unacceptable. If it can be put into another room then the fan noise should not matter.
Crowns fans activate less often so they are a good choice in Pro amps.
Hope that helps
Chris

Good points Chris, if the amps are within ear shot or all of those blinking lights are in your field of vision then pro amps can be distracting. I am very sensitive to fan noise and that was a big factor in my recent projector search. I had a very nice JVC that as the lamp aged I had to run in high lamp mode. In that mode it was approx 30db and bothered me. My new projector should run @ 22db and that I can live with. The oft recommended "just turn up the system volume" only works when there's a lot going on on the screen. Quiet passages make every system sound come to the forefront at least for me ...
post #7370 of 8265
I have 2 XLS1000's and I modded the fans with quite ones. No fan noise now! I will also sell these if somebody has interest.
post #7371 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

N8DOGG I'm not confusing these with 4ohm speakers that aren't efficient, I know they are super efficient but they are still 4ohm rated and my receiver isn't so I'd rather be safe then sorry so I asked. So nothing really needs to be made clear. As long as people have driven JTR speakers on receivers that weren't 4ohm rated without killing their receiver that's good enough for me.

Rgr that. I ran my T12's off of my 4311 while I was waiting for my D-sonic to arrive. It did a great job but when playing reference, you could cook an egg on the top of it lol. Now keep in mind this is only my opinion but I really do think they need an external amp. If you crank them up loud enough on receiver power, they start to break up and sound very harsh as the receivers amps have no more to give. Putting an external keep them inline and the harshness down. Thats just me though.
post #7372 of 8265
Did anybody do a direct comparison between the 2010 T12’s and the latest version?

Typical me…I am playing the “what if” game and considering purchasing the newer CD and XO’s for these speakers….

Just wondering if anybody compared to the two before making a final decision on whether it was worth it..
post #7373 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post

Did anybody do a direct comparison between the 2010 T12’s and the latest version?

Typical me…I am playing the “what if” game and considering purchasing the newer CD and XO’s for these speakers….

Just wondering if anybody compared to the two before making a final decision on whether it was worth it..

Humm, I'll be surprised if anyone has done a direct comparison except maybe Jeff. I did that upgrade myself and the new CD and Xover do provide a flatter response and less HF roll off. Although I wouldn't say it was a big difference, it did translate into a better sounding speaker with no loss of dynamics.

The upgrade is a bit of work. PM me if you decide to do it and I'll give you some tips that I wish someone had given me ... wink.gif
post #7374 of 8265
I am kinda thinking you are right... Appreciate the feedback and I don't plan to make it a drawn out decision. The installation process is what worries me the most, so i will definitely PM you if I move forward. I have somebody coming on the 4th of March to help me tweak a few things. Most likely he can help, but I am not 100% sure.
post #7375 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Rgr that. I ran my T12's off of my 4311 while I was waiting for my D-sonic to arrive. It did a great job but when playing reference, you could cook an egg on the top of it lol. Now keep in mind this is only my opinion but I really do think they need an external amp. If you crank them up loud enough on receiver power, they start to break up and sound very harsh as the receivers amps have no more to give. Putting an external keep them inline and the harshness down. Thats just me though.

I plan to get an external amp eventually but it'll have to wait a little. I do have to say that my VSX-21TXH receiver seems to run really cool, even after watching a full movie like the "Avengers" with lots of action and running at -5.
post #7376 of 8265
Got an email from Jeff that my 3TXs will probably be finished up by week's end! cool.gif

Somebody needs to buy my T8s wink.gif

Coach, doing the upgrade is not hard, just takes a bit of time. And I promise working inside the T12s will be much easier than working inside the small 2010 T8 cabs. I had to change some wiring when I did my upgrade and had to go get some crimp connectors and then just make sure all wiring is long enough before screwing down the xover.
post #7377 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


I also love the opening scene in Iron Man 2, great surround, bass, and of course a classic by ACDC all in one scene - oh and dancing girlies too. smile.gif

carp,

Nice call on Iron Man 2. That was pretty amazing at reference, even without surrounds.
post #7378 of 8265
That Iron Man scene never gets old.
post #7379 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel 48 View Post

Are the crowns noisy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Noisy to some may not be to others. A good rule of thumb is if it has a fan it makes noise. How much is too much? For me any fan noise is unacceptable. If it can be put into another room then the fan noise should not matter.
Crowns fans activate less often so they are a good choice in Pro amps.
Hope that helps
Chris

I will vouche for this, the XLS series amps make ZERO noise, even when the fan is on, and it is variable, so even at moderate levels, it rarely even cuts on. With the JTR's on one, you might NEVER see it come on.
post #7380 of 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


I will vouche for this, the XLS series amps make ZERO noise, even when the fan is on, and it is variable, so even at moderate levels, it rarely even cuts on. With the JTR's on one, you might NEVER see it come on.

I should clarify that the newer XLS (D series) amps are a bit different than the older XLS family. The digital series (RCA inputs, sliver face, etc) are near silent and fans only run to speed when they need to. The older series (XLS 802, 5000, etc) have fans that are quite loud all the time.
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