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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 294

post #8791 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

So...I was really hoping to get to hear the 212's, but it looks like that's not happening. I really want new speakers, and I'm still not entirely sold on buying blindly. That said, I did buy the Seaton SubM HP blind and have been very happy with it. So, now I'm wondering if I shouldn't just go with the Seaton Cat's and add another SubM and complete things or if I should spend a little less and go for the Noesis 212. I have a Denon 4311ci to power them (of course with the Cats it wouldn't matter).

I watch mostly movies, but to be honest, the only time I really, really push things is with music. I atypically feel the need to watch a movie for an hour and a half at crazy levels, but every so often I'll pick out a song from a lineup and want to keep cranking until it feels like a concert...and I can't achieve anywhere close to that with the speakers I have now (Paradigm Studio 60's) before I feel like I need to back off.

So, for those that have heard both the Seaton Cat 12s and the Noesis 212, if you prioritized concert/club level music, which would you go with and why? Price no object. Also, I'd need the JTR's finished, the black wouldn't do, these will be going in a living area -- which, as it seems, also gives the Cats a nod; they always seem to get nods on fit/finish, though I'm sure JTR's custom finishes are more than respectable, the Seaton's are at least a less of a...box. I've tried to read through the various meet threads and get impressions...but if a few people could just distill their thoughts best they can on these two sets of speakers, I'd quite appreciate it.

I agree with papalock's comments and would add I agree with your aesthitics comments. My speakers are behind an AT screen so looks don't matter. If they were in a living room, I would choose another product and it would be neither of the speakers you are considering. Horses for courses. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

That's what I thought I remember you saying before. Great stuff.. cause I can only afford 1 OS.

To be honest I'll rather go with LCR 212 with 1 Sub than 228 with 2 Subs. Why? Because if you later feel the itch to upgrade, you'll have to end up spending more (and I bet 9/10 people with the 228 will wonder how much better they can get out of a 212 the moment they get their hands on their 228). With subs, you just add another if you want down the road.

Sound reasoning coolgeek cool.gif
post #8792 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

So...I was really hoping to get to hear the 212's, but it looks like that's not happening. I really want new speakers, and I'm still not entirely sold on buying blindly. That said, I did buy the Seaton SubM HP blind and have been very happy with it. So, now I'm wondering if I shouldn't just go with the Seaton Cat's and add another SubM and complete things or if I should spend a little less and go for the Noesis 212. I have a Denon 4311ci to power them (of course with the Cats it wouldn't matter).

I watch mostly movies, but to be honest, the only time I really, really push things is with music. I atypically feel the need to watch a movie for an hour and a half at crazy levels, but every so often I'll pick out a song from a lineup and want to keep cranking until it feels like a concert...and I can't achieve anywhere close to that with the speakers I have now (Paradigm Studio 60's) before I feel like I need to back off.

So, for those that have heard both the Seaton Cat 12s and the Noesis 212, if you prioritized concert/club level music, which would you go with and why? Price no object. Also, I'd need the JTR's finished, the black wouldn't do, these will be going in a living area -- which, as it seems, also gives the Cats a nod; they always seem to get nods on fit/finish, though I'm sure JTR's custom finishes are more than respectable, the Seaton's are at least a less of a...box. I've tried to read through the various meet threads and get impressions...but if a few people could just distill their thoughts best they can on these two sets of speakers, I'd quite appreciate it.

Pushing either with music, they should just cruise through it all. Where I have found that something like the cats get a little nod is when I want to run my system without subs, and set the mains to full range (Perfect for when anyone is already asleep in the house as the subs shake everywall in the place). FWIW I love the look of the Cat's boxes and those speakerpower amps Mark uses are no joke, but the 212's have one of the top horn, coaxial compression drivers on the market. If you always fully intend on leaving subs on when listening to music, you really honestly can't go wrong with either offering, but if you have ANY intention of running them full range, the Cat's are built for that, the Noesis are not.

Noesis= More headroom more easily, but not fullrange

Cats= Need those speakerpower amps, but plumb the depths if you want them to biggrin.gif
post #8793 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Super distilled: Based on your priorities, the Noesis (with amplification) will out perform the Cat12's when crossed around 80Hz from an output perspective. However, the Cat12's are the most impressive full range speakers I've ever heard in my life.

Undistilled: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1468211/ne-spring-speaker-shootout-results-thread-april-13-2013/300_100#post_23244449

That being said, you will DEFINITELY need more than a single SubM to keep up with a LCR Noesis.
Thanks, and yes, another SubM HP will be in my future if I go this route...convincing the wife may be hard, but I'll manage, or they'll show up and I'll demo it for her and she'll roll her eyes and be happy that I have a **** eating grin on my face and roll with it, lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I agree with papalock's comments and would add I agree with your aesthitics comments. My speakers are behind an AT screen so looks don't matter. If they were in a living room, I would choose another product and it would be neither of the speakers you are considering. Horses for courses. wink.gif
Sound reasoning coolgeek cool.gif
Out of curiosity, what would you choose? I'm also considering the Klipsch Palladium line, if I can find it to hear, but it's a lot more expensive, though a very nice looking speaker indeed. While cost is no object, I do want to feel I'm getting what I paid for, and in the case of the Palladium, I have a feeling I'm paying for a pretty piece of furniture and a brand name. While I'm sure the driver components themselves are very good, and the crossovers may be better than many, I get the feeling that the compression driver used in the JTR is better and the Seaton coaxial driver also more advanced, so bang for buck is higher there...as expected with a lower overhead product. Maybe I'm off base....
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Pushing either with music, they should just cruise through it all. Where I have found that something like the cats get a little nod is when I want to run my system without subs, and set the mains to full range (Perfect for when anyone is already asleep in the house as the subs shake everywall in the place). FWIW I love the look of the Cat's boxes and those speakerpower amps Mark uses are no joke, but the 212's have one of the top horn, coaxial compression drivers on the market. If you always fully intend on leaving subs on when listening to music, you really honestly can't go wrong with either offering, but if you have ANY intention of running them full range, the Cat's are built for that, the Noesis are not.

Noesis= More headroom more easily, but not fullrange

Cats= Need those speakerpower amps, but plumb the depths if you want them to biggrin.gif
They won't ever go full-range. I like my subs, I like them hot, lol.... But, they will likely be crossed around 60 hz...it just allows me to heat up the region I like in the sub with the turn of a dial without pushing the 80hz region up beyond how I like it.
post #8794 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

I like my subs, I like them hot, lol.... But, they will likely be crossed around 60 hz...it just allows me to heat up the region I like in the sub with the turn of a dial without pushing the 80hz region up beyond how I like it.

If you are crossing at 60hz, I would still recommend the Cats over the Noesis IMO. One speaker you haven't mentioned and I just happened to scoop a pair up of is the Danley's. You should at least look a bit into them as well. Truly an amazing speaker, although a little different, it is quite groundbreaking. I don't really get why so many people that are looking for speakers in this price range don't ever give these consideration... Have a look:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-horn/sh50/

And yes, they can be finished in ways other than the stock duratex.
post #8795 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

If you are crossing at 60hz, I would still recommend the Cats over the Noesis IMO. One speaker you haven't mentioned and I just happened to scoop a pair up of is the Danley's. You should at least look a bit into them as well. Truly an amazing speaker, although a little different, it is quite groundbreaking. I don't really get why so many people that are looking for speakers in this price range don't ever give these consideration... Have a look:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-horn/sh50/

And yes, they can be finished in ways other than the stock duratex.

Looks like those are a bit more. Where is the best price you have seen on them?
post #8796 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

If you are crossing at 60hz, I would still recommend the Cats over the Noesis IMO. One speaker you haven't mentioned and I just happened to scoop a pair up of is the Danley's. You should at least look a bit into them as well. Truly an amazing speaker, although a little different, it is quite groundbreaking. I don't really get why so many people that are looking for speakers in this price range don't ever give these consideration... Have a look:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-horn/sh50/

And yes, they can be finished in ways other than the stock duratex.
I have seen these, and I am aware of this trio (JTR/Seaton/Danley) all coming out of the Pro audio background (didn't they all work together...?). All seem to desire the same end-goal, a high efficiency speaker w/ great sound.

That said, the Danley seems, from what I can tell, to be picker about placement wrt its coverage area -- I've heard people say they needed to get them high and far apart and angled/toed severely to get imaging to lock in well. Further, integrating something in their line as a center may prove difficult in a living room. If all speakers were behind a screen or in a false wall, I'd probably look at them very seriously because then placement becomes a non-issue -- where they wind up positionally is not motivated in any form by aesthetics. Alas, there is only so much the wife will tolerate in our living room, and I already push the envelope....
post #8797 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

Thanks, and yes, another SubM HP will be in my future if I go this route...convincing the wife may be hard, but I'll manage, or they'll show up and I'll demo it for her and she'll roll her eyes and be happy that I have a **** eating grin on my face and roll with it, lol.
Out of curiosity, what would you choose? I'm also considering the Klipsch Palladium line, if I can find it to hear, but it's a lot more expensive, though a very nice looking speaker indeed. While cost is no object, I do want to feel I'm getting what I paid for, and in the case of the Palladium, I have a feeling I'm paying for a pretty piece of furniture and a brand name. While I'm sure the driver components themselves are very good, and the crossovers may be better than many, I get the feeling that the compression driver used in the JTR is better and the Seaton coaxial driver also more advanced, so bang for buck is higher there...as expected with a lower overhead product. Maybe I'm off base....
They won't ever go full-range. I like my subs, I like them hot, lol.... But, they will likely be crossed around 60 hz...it just allows me to heat up the region I like in the sub with the turn of a dial without pushing the 80hz region up beyond how I like it.

The Palladiums would be an excellent cost no object choice. I would probably go with Triad Platinum's or their new HT speakers (can't recall the name) but from an aesthitics standpoint there realy isn't much difference between any of these large box speakers. I like home theater and is really difficult to do that right in a living room. Believe me, I tried...smile.gif
post #8798 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

So...I was really hoping to get to hear the 212's, but it looks like that's not happening. I really want new speakers, and I'm still not entirely sold on buying blindly. That said, I did buy the Seaton SubM HP blind and have been very happy with it. So, now I'm wondering if I shouldn't just go with the Seaton Cat's and add another SubM and complete things or if I should spend a little less and go for the Noesis 212. I have a Denon 4311ci to power them (of course with the Cats it wouldn't matter).

I watch mostly movies, but to be honest, the only time I really, really push things is with music. I atypically feel the need to watch a movie for an hour and a half at crazy levels, but every so often I'll pick out a song from a lineup and want to keep cranking until it feels like a concert...and I can't achieve anywhere close to that with the speakers I have now (Paradigm Studio 60's) before I feel like I need to back off.

So, for those that have heard both the Seaton Cat 12s and the Noesis 212, if you prioritized concert/club level music, which would you go with and why? Price no object. Also, I'd need the JTR's finished, the black wouldn't do, these will be going in a living area -- which, as it seems, also gives the Cats a nod; they always seem to get nods on fit/finish, though I'm sure JTR's custom finishes are more than respectable, the Seaton's are at least a less of a...box. I've tried to read through the various meet threads and get impressions...but if a few people could just distill their thoughts best they can on these two sets of speakers, I'd quite appreciate it.

I own the 212's and have heard the Cat 12's at a recent GTG. You can't go wrong with either as others have said. It could just be my ears but the 212's just do something special for music that I haven't heard in another speaker. It's hard for me to describe... big - open - limitless - smooth - addictive - dangerous (as in you keep wanting to turn them up louder and everytime you think you wouldn't like it if you turned it a little louder you go ahead and turn it up a little louder and they keep sounding better).

The thing is though, it could just be me. While others really like the 212's I think I'm their biggest fan boy so take my comments with that in mind. smile.gif
post #8799 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Looks like those are a bit more. Where is the best price you have seen on them?

Well the SH50's are a bit more, but more like a "Cat8" version is their little brother, the SM60F which is actually what I just got:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/molded-synergy-horns/sm60f/

A lot smaller, and is a molded horn so lighter to boot, still the most incredible I have heard thus far in my theater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

I have seen these, and I am aware of this trio (JTR/Seaton/Danley) all coming out of the Pro audio background (didn't they all work together...?). All seem to desire the same end-goal, a high efficiency speaker w/ great sound.

That said, the Danley seems, from what I can tell, to be picker about placement wrt its coverage area -- I've heard people say they needed to get them high and far apart and angled/toed severely to get imaging to lock in well. Further, integrating something in their line as a center may prove difficult in a living room. If all speakers were behind a screen or in a false wall, I'd probably look at them very seriously because then placement becomes a non-issue -- where they wind up positionally is not motivated in any form by aesthetics. Alas, there is only so much the wife will tolerate in our living room, and I already push the envelope....

Yep, the old servo products.

Honestly having the entire bandwidth horn-loaded has made them the easiest to integrate in my particular room, which isn't the friendliest place at only 11 feet wide and a drop ceiling...

I guess your response is exactly what many folks have gleaned from posts here and elsewhere, but give them just a little finagling, and they are some of the most incredible speakers you will ever hear!!!!
post #8800 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

The Palladiums would be an excellent cost no object choice. I would probably go with Triad Platinum's or their new HT speakers (can't recall the name) but from an aesthitics standpoint there realy isn't much difference between any of these large box speakers. I like home theater and is really difficult to do that right in a living room. Believe me, I tried...smile.gif
Wonder how they would compare.... Their sensitivity is rated lower, as is their power handling.... Then there's the x-over integration to align the two horns rather than coaxially aligned drivers. I have a feeling that they would perform very well, but likely I'd be selling out ultimate performance for beauty, and paying more for it. Plus, they have low frequency extension I'll never use, and what did they sacrifice (efficiency I assume) to get there...? Of course, I may have a shot at listening to them at a dealer. Then again, I need to call and see if Jeff/Mark could send me a loaner and that'll be even better being in my room. Bad thing about that is, likely the loaner will be in a stock finish, and I won't want that for keeps, so even if I like it I'll be shipping it back....

As for HT done right...I don't need it done perfect, and honestly, I care more about 2 channel and music than HT anyway. Heck, right now I use phantom center no surrounds and I enjoy movies all the same. Eventually I may toss in a center and surrounds, but...it's just not a priority for me...I'd rather watch a concert at concert levels and keep the movies at a respectable (don't make me deaf, lol) level.... Oddly, I certainly watch more movies/tv on my system now, but the only thing that ever nudges the volume up to insane levels is music, and I do love me some bass.

I remember my car audio days, I still chase them, where the bass was so loud I could vibrate the glasses on my nose...super fun. My ears can't take that anymore, but I could dial that system back to normal bass levels and it'd still be a rock concert in my car. Just want that experience again in a domain where someone can't steal it all out from under me in a parking lot, mad.gif. Then there was the System Of A Down show I saw in Jones Beach; they had the drums so hot that every time the kick-drum hit my chest felt like it was imploding. That was sick, and the only time I ever left a concert feeling I needed to upgrade my car stereo, lol. If I could get that in my house, I'd be even more thrilled! Unfortunately, I'm not sure it's mixed that hot on the album -- doesn't seem like it on the system I have now.

Of course, I speak about bass fully realizing that these speakers won't be giving it to me. But, right now, because my mains are so lacking, I can't get anywhere near the bass potential from my single SubM without severely compromising the HF response. In other words, right now I crank the heck out of the SubM gains so I get the bass feeling I want, while fully being annoyed by the fact that many times it is overpowering the mains. But, if I turn the bass down, the mains start to give up and distort (or I blow a driver) long before I ever reach the sub levels I want. I need more power in my mains to keep it all linear....and then another SubM, too, haha.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I own the 212's and have heard the Cat 12's at a recent GTG. You can't go wrong with either as others have said. It could just be my ears but the 212's just do something special for music that I haven't heard in another speaker. It's hard for me to describe... big - open - limitless - smooth - addictive - dangerous (as in you keep wanting to turn them up louder and everytime you think you wouldn't like it if you turned it a little louder you go ahead and turn it up a little louder and they keep sounding better).

The thing is though, it could just be me. While others really like the 212's I think I'm their biggest fan boy so take my comments with that in mind. smile.gif
I have had love for horns done well ever since my car audio days...took a lot of work, but when it clicked, it clicked. That's why I honestly do lean towards the JTR, but...I just wish it weren't so...WAF unfriendly, lol. I'm sure I could get it past her in a premium finish, but it's still stocky. To buy neither hearing nor seeing it worries me. I know neither how well it'll sound in my room, nor how well it'll integrate with the decor. You guys with dedicated rooms that can hide them sure are lucky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Yep, the old servo products.

Honestly having the entire bandwidth horn-loaded has made them the easiest to integrate in my particular room, which isn't the friendliest place at only 11 feet wide and a drop ceiling...

I guess your response is exactly what many folks have gleaned from posts here and elsewhere, but give them just a little finagling, and they are some of the most incredible speakers you will ever hear!!!!
I'm sure...but they are even more bulky, and fitting a 2 foot+ cube as a center anywhere but tacked to the ceiling is going to be rough, and then looking at a 2' cube hanging from the ceiling is going to be rougher, plus the height difference from the mains will be crazy, and then tacking them to the ceiling corners...let's just say, the WAF will never have that, lol. The living room is 15' wide -- three 2' cubes across the ceiling takes up 40% the width, she'd murder me, haha.
post #8801 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Well the SH50's are a bit more, but more like a "Cat8" version is their little brother, the SM60F which is actually what I just got:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/molded-synergy-horns/sm60f/

A lot smaller, and is a molded horn so lighter to boot, still the most incredible I have heard thus far in my theater.
Yep, the old servo products.

Honestly having the entire bandwidth horn-loaded has made them the easiest to integrate in my particular room, which isn't the friendliest place at only 11 feet wide and a drop ceiling...

I guess your response is exactly what many folks have gleaned from posts here and elsewhere, but give them just a little finagling, and they are some of the most incredible speakers you will ever hear!!!!

You're not serious recommending these are you?
I realize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... but those Danleys are amoung the ugliest speaker boxes ever made. Behind a screen or in an sports arena fine, but in a living room is just wrong. tongue.gif
post #8802 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

If you have a smaller room, the 228's would be fine and as you said, it would pay for another S2. Another cost option would be a 5.2 with a single 8 for the center and 2 single 8's for surround. Most people do not know how good the single 8 sounds. It was pretty the story of the day at the last NE GTG back in the spring. I know I was shocked when I heard it.
Please define "small". If you have a small room, do you even need to buy the 228? Isn't Single8 already overkill for a small huge room?

Ha... no doubt -- with one clarification. The single8 and 228HT are already overkill for the largest of home theater rooms. The 228HT would be overkill for a medium church or gymnasium setting for most purposes. The 212HT would be overkill for a large church or gymnasium setting. People casually saying if you have a huge room you might need more speaker than the S8 or 228HT just don't know JTR equipment. To this day the S8 powered by a pro amp in HuskerOmaha's room is one of the loudest clearest speakers I've ever heard - if only because I've NEVER wanted to turn my 228HT or the 212HT speakers I demoed for a couple weeks in my home nearly as loud as Jeff turned that S8 just to demo it's capability. The 228HT and 212HT are better speakers than the S8 by the stats - and posses even more dynamic capability. Running out of headroom will NEVER be an issue. Having 228HT as a front soundstage still has an excellent upgrade path if you get the itch later---convert the L/R 228HT to rears, and buy a 212HT, or whatever Jeff comes out with next as the new L/R. As to the what if itch - - - you'll always deal with that --- Jeff will come out with a new speaker --- and probably soon --- he told at the motorcycle races this spring that he's working on a no holds barred full range offering right now, so JTR can quit getting thwarted at full range speaker g2g's where subs are not paired with his offerings as they designed to be used. So when you guys upgrade at that release - I might be watching the classified for my own pair of L/R 212HT. wink.gif I need to get over to carps and use the 228HT center with his 212HT L/R and see if the soundstage works well. That's something I have not tried.

I got the 228HT because for the budget purposes they made more sense to me. I've said it before after hearing the two options compared several times in different rooms and I'll say it again. For movies you get 98% of the performance with the 228HT, for music 75% of the performance of the 212HT - IMO. For what it's worth from an owner who's spent a lot of time with both - I'd never worry an instance about having the 228HT over the 212HT for movie use. I honestly don't think I could tell the difference to well above reference, and neither did three of the four other demoers that day. Carp thought he could and he is the owner of the 212HT --- and so you take from that what you well. The demo session was not blind. So for strictly movie use I think you can get the 228HT and never look back. Even carp has said as much and he is one of the bigger advocates of the 212HT. At another G2G we turned the 228HT up to ~ +20dB range with PRO amps on them and demoed the nastiest movie scenes at dlbeck's house last g2g when the 228HT were powered by pro amps and the 228HT never missed a beat. I doubt many of you have even come close to + 20dB over reference listening --- nor should you want to. I had earplugs in and my hands over my ears and it was still incredibly loud on the gun fire scenes from the demo disks - like the Gatling Gun from Book of Eli. I looked around and asked the guys What the HECK are we doing? Turn this down!!!!!!.....but it's hard to be convincing when you have a big stupid poop eating grin on your face. Despite that experience --- I think Jeff turned the S8's louder than that at HuskerOmahas event. Alll the above being said - if you are a more music listening bias. I do agree - buy the 212HT, as they are a superior speaker for music. It isn't a stark good/bad difference - but it is a clear soundstage presentation difference -- the 212HT produce a bigger soundstage, and the 228HT present a more focused center soundstage. I've heard the two speakers (228HT vs 212HT) compared in three different rooms now and it's always been the same. The 212HT sound like the entire front wall is the close stage for music (my preference), while the 228HT sound like the vocal is very centered and focused (smaller venue sound - singer is front and center -- stitch1 described it like the singer was sitting his lap - when he was sitting in the sweetspot at the comparison). Of the four in our demo group, Stitch1 was the only one who said he preferred the 228HT for music, the other three of us (carp, mrsmithers, and I) pretty clearly preferred the 212HT for music. All four of us thought the difference would be easily recognizable based on the soundstage presentation. Yes we tried different toe-ins -- same results. Focused center vs whole wall soundstage. For movies with a L/C/R engaged on DD or DTS tracks three of us thought we couldn't tell the difference, and carp the owner thought he could tell, but it was very minimal.

so noooo....small/large rooms - need not enter the equation with JTR equipment. It has pro audio roots - meant to use for crowds of hundreds if not thousands of people --- for the upgrade itch, or what if question --- each person has to face that as they see fit. There will always be the ....next.... thing.
Edited by Archaea - 7/17/13 at 7:06am
post #8803 of 18542
Ok, a serious question for JTR experts.

I purpose built a basement (which is underground) to be my new Home Theater.

It's about 11ft-14ft wide (various places are different in width). And 22 feet long. And 9 feet high.

Now, I built it with 10 inch concrete all around. It's a complete dungeon (I'll be having an air circulator later).

I was just down there today, and when i whistle or talk, I feel like I was in a cave.. there was a LOT of echo.

Now, is this good for HT sound???

What do I need to do? Use greenglue all around the room to absorb some sound? Carpet?
post #8804 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Ok, a serious question for JTR experts.

I purpose built a basement (which is underground) to be my new Home Theater.

It's about 11ft-14ft wide (various places are different in width). And 22 feet long. And 9 feet high.

Now, I built it with 10 inch concrete all around. It's a complete dungeon (I'll be having an air circulator later).

I was just down there today, and when i whistle or talk, I feel like I was in a cave.. there was a LOT of echo.

Now, is this good for HT sound???

What do I need to do? Use greenglue all around the room to absorb some sound? Carpet?
Are you going to finish it? Drywall, Carpet, room treatments?
post #8805 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

You're not serious recommending these are you?
I realize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... but those Danleys are amoung the ugliest speaker boxes ever made. Behind a screen or in an sports arena fine, but in a living room is just wrong. tongue.gif

Dead serious. Available in just about any finish you want as well. And the Noesis would look better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Ok, a serious question for JTR experts.

I purpose built a basement (which is underground) to be my new Home Theater.

It's about 11ft-14ft wide (various places are different in width). And 22 feet long. And 9 feet high.

Now, I built it with 10 inch concrete all around. It's a complete dungeon (I'll be having an air circulator later).

I was just down there today, and when i whistle or talk, I feel like I was in a cave.. there was a LOT of echo.

Now, is this good for HT sound???

What do I need to do? Use greenglue all around the room to absorb some sound? Carpet?

No, it's the worst. Getting furniture and all your things in there will help, but I would at least frame in the theater with sheetrock. I would definitely suggest carpet, and then I would almost certainly say you need at least a few strategically placed acoustic panels once all that goes in...
post #8806 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Dead serious. Available in just about any finish you want as well. And the Noesis would look better?

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder but those Danely loudspeakers are fugly. The only way most people would probably use those is if they were hiding them behind an AT screen.
At least the Noesis speakers look cool IMO.
post #8807 of 18542
I happen to like the look of the Danleys as well. For me they are just as industrial looking as many of the other psedo-pro offerings like the JTRs, my yorkvilles, etc. I guess I enjoy that "I'll punch you in the face with sound" type of looks. biggrin.gif
post #8808 of 18542
Jeez, haters 'gon hate around here!!! FWIW a big ole menacing 2x2 horn that will beat your face in looks pretty darn cool to me. the fact I leave the grills off and can see the horn makes me wonder how all that works, and sounds the way it does.

Plus, I'd rather have a speaker that performs better than "looks cool." Flame-on....
post #8809 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Are you going to finish it? Drywall, Carpet, room treatments?

Do I need drywall? It's narrow enough as is... i don't want to make ti narrower...

And what does it do anyways? The reason I have my HT underground is so that the sound would not escape into the neighbor's house. And I can potentially blast it as loud as possible.

If I do drywall, what material to use? and do I just stick the sheetrock on to my concrete wall with green glue? Would green glue work to get rid of echo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Dead serious. Available in just about any finish you want as well. And the Noesis would look better?
No, it's the worst. Getting furniture and all your things in there will help, but I would at least frame in the theater with sheetrock. I would definitely suggest carpet, and then I would almost certainly say you need at least a few strategically placed acoustic panels once all that goes in...

Will definitely place carpets... I am thinking of building bookshelves as well.. to place all my CDs / Blu Rays... maybe that will help.

Also, will get some acoustic panels. But not sure what else would do.

Anyone has a 10 inch thick concrete wall all around for their HT room?
post #8810 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Jeez, haters 'gon hate around here!!! FWIW a big ole menacing 2x2 horn that will beat your face in looks pretty darn cool to me. the fact I leave the grills off and can see the horn makes me wonder how all that works, and sounds the way it does.

Plus, I'd rather have a speaker that performs better than "looks cool." Flame-on....

I'm not hating and I'm pretty sure they sound amazing, I just think they're extremely fugly. cool.gif

And you're right about having a speaker that sounds amazing rather then looks cool, but then again are you suggesting the Noesis speakers don't sound amazing?
post #8811 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Ha... no doubt -- with one clarification. The single8 and 228HT are already overkill for the largest of home theater rooms. The 228HT would be overkill for a medium church or gymnasium setting for most purposes. The 212HT would be overkill for a large church or gymnasium setting. People casually saying if you have a huge room you might need more speaker than the S8 or 228HT just don't know JTR equipment. To this day the S8 powered by a pro amp in HuskerOmaha's room is one of the loudest clearest speakers I've ever heard - if only because I've NEVER wanted to turn my 228HT or the 212HT speakers I demoed for a couple weeks in my home nearly as loud as Jeff turned that S8 just to demo it's capability. The 228HT and 212HT are better speakers than the S8 by the stats - and posses even more dynamic capability. Running out of headroom will NEVER be an issue. Having 228HT as a front soundstage still has an excellent upgrade path if you get the itch later---convert the L/R 228HT to rears, and buy a 212HT, or whatever Jeff comes out with next as the new L/R. As to the what if itch - - - you'll always deal with that --- Jeff will come out with a new speaker --- and probably soon --- he told at the motorcycle races this spring that he's working on a no holds barred full range offering right now, so JTR can quit getting thwarted at full range speaker g2g's where subs are not paired with his offerings as they designed to be used. So when you guys upgrade at that release - I might be watching the classified for my own pair of L/R 212HT. wink.gif I need to get over to carps and use the 228HT center with his 212HT L/R and see if the soundstage works well. That's something I have not tried.

I got the 228HT because for the budget purposes they made more sense to me. I've said it before after hearing the two options compared several times in different rooms and I'll say it again. For movies you get 98% of the performance with the 228HT, for music 75% of the performance of the 212HT - IMO. For what it's worth from an owner who's spent a lot of time with both - I'd never worry an instance about having the 228HT over the 212HT for movie use. I honestly don't think I could tell the difference to well above reference, and neither did three of the four other demoers that day. Carp thought he could and he is the owner of the 212HT --- and so you take from that what you well. The demo session was not blind. So for strictly movie use I think you can get the 228HT and never look back. Even carp has said as much and he is one of the bigger advocates of the 212HT. At another G2G we turned the 228HT up to ~ +20dB range with PRO amps on them and demoed the nastiest movie scenes at dlbeck's house last g2g when the 228HT were powered by pro amps and the 228HT never missed a beat. I doubt many of you have even come close to + 20dB over reference listening --- nor should you want to. I had earplugs in and my hands over my ears and it was still incredibly loud on the gun fire scenes from the demo disks - like the Gatling Gun from Book of Eli. I looked around and asked the guys What the HECK are we doing? Turn this down!!!!!!.....but it's hard to be convincing when you have a big stupid poop eating grin on your face. Despite that experience --- I think Jeff turned the S8's louder than that at HuskerOmahas event. Alll the above being said - if you are a more music listening bias. I do agree - buy the 212HT, as they are a superior speaker for music. It isn't a stark good/bad difference - but it is a clear soundstage presentation difference -- the 212HT produce a bigger soundstage, and the 228HT present a more focused center soundstage. I've heard the two speakers (228HT vs 212HT) compared in three different rooms now and it's always been the same. The 212HT sound like the entire front wall is the close stage for music (my preference), while the 228HT sound like the vocal is very centered and focused (smaller venue sound - singer is front and center -- stitch1 described it like the singer was sitting his lap - when he was sitting in the sweetspot at the comparison). Of the four in our demo group, Stitch1 was the only one who said he preferred the 228HT for music, the other three of us (carp, mrsmithers, and I) pretty clearly preferred the 212HT for music. All four of us thought the difference would be easily recognizable based on the soundstage presentation. Yes we tried different toe-ins -- same results. Focused center vs whole wall soundstage. For movies with a L/C/R engaged on DD or DTS tracks three of us thought we couldn't tell the difference, and carp the owner thought he could tell, but it was very minimal.

so noooo....small/large rooms - need not enter the equation with JTR equipment. It has pro audio roots - meant to use for crowds of hundreds if not thousands of people --- for the upgrade itch, or what if question --- each person has to face that as they see fit. There will always be the ....next.... thing.

I love how you put that into perspective Archaea, honestly I have never second guessed my purchase of my 228HT's but I never really considered the 212HT's because I was strictly using them for movies. I had the budget to buy the 212HT's but after talking with Jeff for what I was using them for I didn't think it was worth over double the price.
post #8812 of 18542
Not a JTR expert or owner, just following along...
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Now, is this good for HT sound???
No, it will be pretty crook. The concrete bunker provides no sound absorption and is producing "high Q" (strong; narrow band) resonances that zing around the room and take a long time to die down. On the positive side, you will have excellent sound isolation, due to the high transmission loss of concrete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

What do I need to do? Use greenglue all around the room to absorb some sound? Carpet?
You need to start reading up on room acoustics and construction. Start with the master, Floyd Toole: http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3.pdf
He works through some easy to digest acoustical theory before getting into room construction on about page 27.

Another excellent source of info is the RealTraps (Ethan Winer) site: http://realtraps.com/info.htm

Hope this helps. Others might have their favourite resources.
post #8813 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Do I need drywall? It's narrow enough as is... i don't want to make ti narrower...

And what does it do anyways? The reason I have my HT underground is so that the sound would not escape into the neighbor's house. And I can potentially blast it as loud as possible.

If I do drywall, what material to use? and do I just stick the sheetrock on to my concrete wall with green glue? Would green glue work to get rid of echo?
Will definitely place carpets... I am thinking of building bookshelves as well.. to place all my CDs / Blu Rays... maybe that will help.

Also, will get some acoustic panels. But not sure what else would do.

Anyone has a 10 inch thick concrete wall all around for their HT room?

Yep, on three of 4 sides I do, but they are behind 2x4 studs and nice thick sheetrock with insulation between. Geiger hit the nail on the head with his post. You got the sound isolation down pat for sure. Even though it seems counterintuitive, sheetrock walls and such provide for some absorption. Add carpet in, perhaps some corner bass traps and 2-4inch wall panels and you should hopefully be able to sit at your LP, clap or shout, and zero resonances in the room. Any resonance you have now which sound like it is pretty substantial, will wreak havoc on your frequency response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I'm not hating and I'm pretty sure they sound amazing, I just think they're extremely fugly. cool.gif

And you're right about having a speaker that sounds amazing rather then looks cool, but then again are you suggesting the Noesis speakers don't sound amazing?

Not one bit, as they pretty much define amazing sound, but just IME, if the Noesis are amazing, the Danleys are Amazing squared. biggrin.gif
post #8814 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Not one bit, as they pretty much define amazing sound, but just IME, if the Noesis are amazing, the Danleys are Amazing squared. biggrin.gif

Haha now that was worth a good laugh beast! ....lol that was pretty funny tongue.gif
post #8815 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Yep, on three of 4 sides I do, but they are behind 2x4 studs and nice thick sheetrock with insulation between. Geiger hit the nail on the head with his post. You got the sound isolation down pat for sure. Even though it seems counterintuitive, sheetrock walls and such provide for some absorption. Add carpet in, perhaps some corner bass traps and 2-4inch wall panels and you should hopefully be able to sit at your LP, clap or shout, and zero resonances in the room. Any resonance you have now which sound like it is pretty substantial, will wreak havoc on your frequency response.
Not one bit, as they pretty much define amazing sound, but just IME, if the Noesis are amazing, the Danleys are Amazing squared. biggrin.gif

1. What's a 2x4 studs?
2. Did you use green glue at all?
3. What insulation between did you use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

Not a JTR expert or owner, just following along...
No, it will be pretty crook. The concrete bunker provides no sound absorption and is producing "high Q" (strong; narrow band) resonances that zing around the room and take a long time to die down. On the positive side, you will have excellent sound isolation, due to the high transmission loss of concrete.
You need to start reading up on room acoustics and construction. Start with the master, Floyd Toole: http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3.pdf
He works through some easy to digest acoustical theory before getting into room construction on about page 27.

Another excellent source of info is the RealTraps (Ethan Winer) site: http://realtraps.com/info.htm

Hope this helps. Others might have their favourite resources.

I tried to read up on the doc, but it was all too technical.

I just need specific instructions.. .like put this here, put that there...

Here's what I am thinking of doing:

1. Apply greenglue to all walls, then stick it with plywood against the concrete. I heard that greenglue absorbs sound. Then, place some acoustic panels around, and bass traps. And carpets. And maybe a bookshelve or something, and some curtains around the room. And maybe some boxes at the ceiling.
post #8816 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Ok, a serious question for JTR experts.

I purpose built a basement (which is underground) to be my new Home Theater.

It's about 11ft-14ft wide (various places are different in width). And 22 feet long. And 9 feet high.

Now, I built it with 10 inch concrete all around. It's a complete dungeon (I'll be having an air circulator later).

I was just down there today, and when i whistle or talk, I feel like I was in a cave.. there was a LOT of echo.

Now, is this good for HT sound???


What do I need to do? Use greenglue all around the room to absorb some sound? Carpet?

Not good. You will need room treatments.

Added
Rather than drywall, I would cover the walls with cloth over absorption. Add diffusion where recommended.
Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 7/17/13 at 10:59am
Reply
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post #8817 of 18542
2 inch by 4 inch pieces of wood that people build walls for homes out of, they usually go from floor to ceiling, are spaced 16 inches apart, and have insulation in between each section. Sheetrock on either side. Now you know how walls are constructed.

Green glue is to absorb sound, so as to not pass it through to the next room. In your case with concrete, it isn't going to pass through anyways, so I don't see a huge benefit in doing what you propose. Having concrete is a good thing to keeping sound in, it just unfortunately makes that sound you are keeping in sound terrible. The walls need to be heavily treated one way or another. Fabric as Mike suggested works, even the super thick draping curtains like you see in theaters would work, and then behind it you could place acoustic panels in the areas that are more critical.

Think about how the sound waves react to the concrete wall this way: You are bouncing a basketball on a sidewalk as you walk along. The amount of force it takes to get it to bounce back up to your hand is constant and pretty easily accomplished. All of a sudden you miss-bounce the ball in a big pile of leaves off to the side, and the ball no longer returns to your hand as the force was absorbed by the leaf pile. The same concept happens with sound waves where if they hit the concrete uninhibited, it is WAY too easy for the waves to bounce off and they do so with a lot of force(no attenuation of any sort). If you treat the wall with acoustic panels/plywood/sheetrock/SOMETHING, it will help absorb some or even all of that sound wave, and make your room not echo.
post #8818 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Ok, a serious question for JTR experts.

I purpose built a basement (which is underground) to be my new Home Theater.

It's about 11ft-14ft wide (various places are different in width). And 22 feet long. And 9 feet high.

Now, I built it with 10 inch concrete all around. It's a complete dungeon (I'll be having an air circulator later).

I was just down there today, and when i whistle or talk, I feel like I was in a cave.. there was a LOT of echo.

Now, is this good for HT sound???

What do I need to do? Use greenglue all around the room to absorb some sound? Carpet?
I have a similar room. Solid cement block and concrete. Only opening is a 3' x 6'6" door opening and a small fireplace that used to house a Buck stove but it Damn near melted my equipment so it now is covered with 244 panels. One wall is solid brick, one is solid drywall, & the front and back are oak panels. The concrete floor has to be covered wall to wall with carpet and sound rated pad ( I take that rating as BS but its better than not sound rated). A mixture of 244, monster bass traps and tri traps in the corners is all that's needed to tame it effectively. This option is a lot cheaper than GreenGlue and sound proof drywall. I don't even have acoustical treatments on the ceiling and my room is silent. I do not have a solution for bass heavy music & movies shaking the actual concrete floor but I like that anyway. Oh Yeah the room is 20'w x 24'L x 7'6"H.
When you are finished it will be easy to get rid of the reflections and echos.

On a side note I took My T12s and both SubM HPs outside by the pool this weekend. It is like letting a caged tiger loose to roam free. If anyone gets a chance to take JTR equipment outside it is an experience that is worth the hassle. My neighborhood is full of Rednecks and Hillbillies like myself so they have the required Live and Let Live attitude as long as the beer is free.smile.gif It was disappointing taking them back inside.
Chris
post #8819 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post




On a side note I took My T12s and both SubM HPs outside by the pool this weekend. It is like letting a caged tiger loose to roam free. If anyone gets a chance to take JTR equipment outside it is an experience that is worth the hassle. My neighborhood is full of Rednecks and Hillbillies like myself so they have the required Live and Let Live attitude as long as the beer is free.smile.gif It was disappointing taking them back inside.
Chris

Nice Chris!! That must have been fun, I'll have to try it sometime. Last year our power was out and a guy a street over had some speakers on his driveway blaring that he was running of a generator... hmmm... that might make losing power a hell of a lot of fun! biggrin.gif
post #8820 of 18542
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Jeez, haters 'gon hate around here!!! FWIW a big ole menacing 2x2 horn that will beat your face in looks pretty darn cool to me. the fact I leave the grills off and can see the horn makes me wonder how all that works, and sounds the way it does.
Plus, I'd rather have a speaker that performs better than "looks cool." Flame-on....
I think both JTR and Danley speakers look Badass. They are made for Men hence the low WAF. When I dream of cost no object speakers I don't know what ones I would get but I do know they will have Flames painted down the side.biggrin.gif
Those Danleys are Sweet!!!
Chris
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