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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 324

post #9691 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

As I can't get the search to work and Google was not my friend----
What does TAOF stand for?
I know I will really kick myself when I get the answer. wink.gif

I had to look it up too. The Art of Flight. An awesome demo disc that I bought for when I get my system setup. I won't watch it until then but hear it is AWESOME!

Edit: It isn't a demo disc per se but is often used as one. It is about snowboarding, probably back country helicopter type mountains, which is a guess since I haven't seen it.
post #9692 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

I had to look it up too. The Art of Flight. An awesome demo disc that I bought for when I get my system setup. I won't watch it until then but hear it is AWESOME!

Edit: It isn't a demo disc per se but is often used as one. It is about snowboarding, probably back country helicopter type mountains, which is a guess since I haven't seen it.

Correct and it is an awesome disk to watch and demo. Never get tired of it. cool.gif
post #9693 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

N8dogg,
The rythmik are something special imo.

It won the two brothers shootout, and wowed us over its equitably priced opponents at the gorilla83 meet last fall. It's an exceptionally well designed unit on all fronts. Handles itself at the limits with absolute poise. Everyone at the meet loved it.

If I didn't own JTR caps, I'd own Rythmik fv15hp. (Still think i prefer ported sound after visiting the various meets, though, admittedly never have been blind tested myself.) The JTR is more powerful for sure, and sound quality is equitable between the two, but then the caps are more expensive. For its price, I do think the rhythmik is something special against equitable consumer subs...i have no hesitation recommending it.

There is legitimate reason why they have such a over zealous following.

You are right in the caution of buying six of them. At that point buy dual opposed 18s.

I can't say I agree at all. Though I've not heard the fv15hp's, I do have a lot of experience with the F15 and F25 as have good friends that have both (one has 4 x f15's the other has 1 F25). At out meet, the F15's got the lowest score on pretty much everyone's ballets, IMO they are run of the mill drivers with the servo gimmick in tow. The F25 was pretty decent but he also had 2 FI 15's in the same sized box with an ep4000 and no one could tell the difference in our blind tests. I used to have 4 paradigm servo 15's v2, and as much as I though I loved them, in the end, they are the same deal, good for music and not good enough for HT... IMO of course...
I would never recommend them to anyone seeking an HT quality experience, when there are much better options out there..... All IMO of course. No offense given or taken either way. cool.gif
post #9694 of 18329
Fair enough n8dogg,

I liked the fv15HP significantly more than the sealed rythmik 15 that auditioned immediately before it. My thoughts favoring the hp ported rythmik were based on comparing it side by side to the hsu uls15, a sealed rythmik 15, a svs pc 31" tube sub, a couple sealed 15" dayton subs, the lms5400 sealed. The submersive hp and the captivator.

What other subs did you compare the sealed rythmiks to?
post #9695 of 18329
So Archea, can you rank the top 5 in terms of sound quality and top 5 in terms of output (10-15hz) or do a tier grouping of your thoughts on the top subs you've heard? Thanks.
post #9696 of 18329
That's sure to be an invitation to quarrel. ;p


I sort of did this less a while back, to a less controversial extent here...
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425179/the-subwoofer-recommendation-by-pricepoint-thread

I need to update some of my recommendations.
post #9697 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Fair enough n8dogg,

I liked the fv15HP significantly more than the sealed rythmik 15 that auditioned immediately before it. My thoughts favoring the hp ported rythmik were based on comparing it side by side to the hsu uls15, a sealed rythmik 15, a svs pc 31" tube sub, a couple sealed 15" dayton subs, the lms5400 sealed. The submersive hp and the captivator.

What other subs did you compare the sealed rythmiks to?

JL F113, paradigm signature servo, Wilson Watchdog (house owners sub), UXL 18 and ep4000, DIY 15" Titanic and 500 watt plate amp, Axiom ep600, Submersive (non hp) the 4 x F15 and svs pb2+.
There were 13 of us ranging in age from me at the time 30 to the house owner 71.
The UXL was mine and the very first one Mark produced. The tests were a few different varied songs and some clips from movies that the owner Gab had in his server.
For me, the JL113 won for music with the submersive and UXL tied for second and the UXL won by a good margin in the movies with the submersive in second.
The UXL was the clearly the big winner when we tallied up the votes, with the submersive and f113 2nd and 3rd. The big looser of the day was the watchdog... I think Gab paid almost 10K for it too! Even the ports chuffed at medium high volume, it was one of the lowest scores out of all of them LOL.

The F15's did nothing notable, I had not had any experience with Rythmik , F113 or the watchdog at the time. Those rythmiks just are not what I want in a sub. We did have a little sub off between the paradigm sig and the rythmik, though the Sig has a much more powerful amp and it wasn't much of a fight, though you'd expect it not to be I guess.

I had 1 of my LMS's left at the time and brought the UXL home and within a month, had sold it off and been a big mach 5 fan since. I had built the UXL especially for the meetup and had only tested it in my garage. It was by a large margin the favorite sub of the meet and I was hooked ever since then!

The F25 and the Fi's were only compared on a whim one day as I had build one dual opposed for another friend and we just said lets try them out. It's not that it sounded bad or anything, the Fi's just did things better, we were using a 1000 dayton plate amp on the Fi's. The Fi's were a very clear winner for HT as they out spl'd the rythmiks by 4 dB's overall and sounded great doing it. I guess I shouldn't say I don't like all rythmiks, as I've not heard the fv15 but I'll try and find my pic of the F15 driver and a mach 5 IXL 15 side by side, the rythmik driver looks like a toy. They look similar to the dayton HO in size.

edit : I would think the HP submersive would be a very close match to the UXL as it was pretty damn impressive. But again, no disrespect for anyone that loves the rythmiks, I just didn't.
post #9698 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

That's sure to be an invitation to quarrel. ;p

I'm okay with that. smile.gif I've taken martial arts so I'm okay with a little conflict. HA!
post #9699 of 18329
N8DOGG - One of my frustrations with Rythmik is they're never well represented at subwoofer meets. Dual this, triple that, and yet a single Rythmik, often sealed, which simply is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. So if you haven't heard an FV15HP, I'd say you really haven't heard a Ryhtmik for theater use. But I haven't either. Mark and Jeff do a great job of getting their products to the get togethers. For whatever reason Brian doesn't try to cater to the home theater set. Then again he has a successful business so who am I to say...but since we were sharing opinions. smile.gif
post #9700 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

N8DOGG - One of my frustrations with Rythmik is they're never well represented at subwoofer meets. Dual this, triple that, and yet a single Rythmik, often sealed, which simply is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. So if you haven't heard an FV15HP, I'd say you really haven't heard a Ryhtmik for theater use. But I haven't either. Mark and Jeff do a great job of getting their products to the get togethers. For whatever reason Brian doesn't try to cater to the home theater set. Then again he has a successful business so who am I to say...but since we were sharing opinions. smile.gif

To be fair, the guy brought all 4 F15's and for the tests, 2 of them were being played stacked on each other, that should be close to the output of the FV15hp (or the F25 for that matter) I'd imagine but I don't really know I guess. lol Plus I'm in Winnipeg and it's not exactly the audio meca of the North LOL.
I personally though the titanic with the 500 watt amp and the rythmik were pretty even steven 1 on 1 in output and SQ at the meet.
Your right though, Brian doesn't market them as HT monsters because they aren't, he seems like a smart guy and knows his products strengths and weaknesses. They have a big following and people seem to like them. I'm a picky bastard though and don't listen to much music on my HT. I feel my SQ subs are my JBL 2242's I use for my Noesis stands tongue.gif
I'd suggest anyone looking at stands to do the same.... stands for the Noesis? or stands with subs in them!!! I think the choice is easy lol


post #9701 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Your right though, Brian doesn't market them as HT monsters because they aren't, he seems like a smart guy and knows his products strengths and weaknesses.

I don't know why but I was just hoping the Rythmiks FV15HP were better for HT...sound quality, downward firing, underdog, etc. I'm sure they are for the 98% but I guess this is not the thread for that group. smile.gif

So have you had a chance to compare DO SI18s to the UXL 18s?
post #9702 of 18329
Yup, I've had both but there was something up with my SI's and the VC's both fried. I personally think it was a glue failure on the VC's as no other people have has issues that I've heard of. Under any fairly normal conditions, they will sound the same or like pop, you have 100 of them and don't need to use up every mm of xmax.

There is a good post by Ricci ( personally tested both drivers and the results are on Data-bass.com) about the differences between the SI and the UXL I cutout what he thought. Keep in mind the UXL is twice the price as well.


Ricci's post :
Quote:
Couple of things that you guys should be looking at when comparing tests other than the burst numbers alone. Forget the winisd simulations for direct comparisons of systems at the limit. They are nothing more than ballpark estimates at best. The UXL driver is a better driver and much more capable than the SI but it should be it weighs twice as much and is more than twice as expensive. It is about 3dB more sensitive, has less compression, greater maximum output, greater power handling, is more rugged and has lower distortion at the same output levels. This is not a dig at the SI driver which is truly impressive for the price point that they have hit.

If you dig a little deeper into the measurements you will see that while the CEA-2010 results for DIY subs are impressive the output numbers above roughly 40Hz should NOT be used as a basis for judging what they are capable of producing in your, or any other real world install. Firstly, no one except car audio SPL competitors are going to run 12kw of amp to one driver. You cannot apply an amplifier to the driver powerful enough to produce the outputs shown at 50Hz-125Hz in the CEA-2010 burst tests and have a dummy proof or “safe” system without truly advanced limiting and compressor circuit design. You know… The exact things that most DIY guys list as negatives about the ID or commercial subs. The test amplifier has enough power to melt the coils with a few seconds of constant signal and also to blow the driver apart or beat it to death in the deep bass. One gratuitous crank of the volume control with the wrong signal is all it takes. While the SI 18 may take the full burst output of the test amplifier for 1/10th of a second at 63Hz at 31.5Hz it runs out of mechanical clearance with only 95 volts applied. If you apply the full burst capability of the amp at 31.5Hz or below I will let you guess what happens. Since the voltages applied are now being listed for passive systems for both the long term output compression sweeps and the CEA-2010 bursts these should be used to get an educated estimate of what sort of power makes sense to safely and adequately power a particular system. You want to look at these 2 measurement sets and look at the power applied over the full bandwidth of 10-125Hz in order to determine what is likely to be an appropriate “safe” power level to extract maximum performance but avoid damaging the driver through one careless mistake as can happen with too much power on tap.

For example the SI driver in a 4 cubic foot sealed enclosure was able to survive a 118 volt sine sweep from 2-125Hz. However it was compressing by 3dB at this point and was distorting greatly and was clearly distressed. Clearly this is right at the limit. The CEA-2010 burst results in the deep bass, which is what you want to look at where the system is excursion limited, show that at 31.5Hz the system only handled a 95 volt input before running out of excursion. The distortion recording here is not high because it is near the system Fb, but I clearly remember that further increases in output caused the driver to emit a sharp mechanical “CLACK” sound. Now you may wonder how the system exhibited this at only 95 volts in the CEA-2010 test but survived 118 volts input during the sweeps? That is because the nature of the long term sweeps greatly heats the coil and motor of the driver causing impedance to rise, current through the driver to drop and thus actual applied power to drop also and sensitivity to decrease. The CEA-2010 tests apply power for a small fraction of a second so the driver is essentially cold and not experiencing anything like the heat build up encountered during the long term sweeps. Thus the impedance is lower, there is less compression and it is seeing greater current and power from the amplifier at the same voltage levels. Based on this information and assuming a similar sized sealed enclosure is used full bandwidth below 125Hz, I would put the SI 18’s practical rating at about 90-95 volts of amplifier maximum to avoid potential over excursion damage. This is still well past SI's 600w rating and about 1400w into the measured impedance minimum above 10Hz. What that means is that power level will keep the driver from damaging itself mechanically but you could still potentially cook the coil if you tried though I doubt many would have problems.

Comparing the SI to the UXL-18 and again this is a bit of a lop sided comparison due to the price differences, but comparing the maximum CEA-2010 burst output in the low bass where the limitations arise first the UXL-18 shows a 3.5dB average advantage from 10-50Hz. 3.5dB may not sound like much but I consider this quite substantial on a driver versus driver basis. You simply don’t have huge 6dB advantages between similar size bass drivers in most cases as it requires twice the linear displacement and power handling. When you are fighting against HIL at the ends of the spectrum every 1dB advantage in output potential becomes more and more difficult to achieve. Also compare the sensitivities of the two and the UXL shows a marked 2dB advantage in sensitivity with a 2 volt input. Again that may not sound like much but it is. Compare the maximum output levels recorded during the long term sweeps and you will see a similar trend to the CEA-2010 outputs with the UXL having 2-3dB greater broad band output potential while being driven with 93.1 volts versus 118 volts for the SI driver. The compression charts also show that the UXL was reaching just about 2dB in compression at the extremes of the 10-125Hz frequency range while the SI was compressing more heavily reaching 3dB over a broader bandwidth. Now consider that this extra compression was occurring at output levels about 2dB lower than the UXL. Yet another consideration is this…The UXL shows greater sensitivity and comparing the impedance curve of the two drivers in the same enclosure indicates that they are very close in shape and magnitude. Both are nominally 4 ohm systems. However the UXL exhibits a broader and larger impedance peak indicating a more powerful motor and higher efficiency in this area. The impedance minimum of the UXL is about 5.25 ohms as measured in the test enclosure while the SI is about 5.3 ohms at 10Hz but is 6.3 ohms or higher everywhere above 12Hz. Doing the calculations 118 volts into the SI systems 6.3 ohm impedance minimum would result in about 2200 watts from the amplifier. While the 93.1 volts applied to the UXL’s minimum impedance of 5.3 ohms results in a power of about 1650w. (Due to heating effects and the impedance shape, the actual applied power to either is quite a bit less.) The moral of the story is that the UXL is producing MORE output during its maximum sweep level with LESS power than applied to the SI. The UXL does not require a more powerful amp than the SI necessarily since it is much more efficient.

Again I’m not ragging the SI driver here…Quite the opposite. It offers huge bang for the buck beyond what we could have reasonably expected from a $220 18”. I’m just trying to illustrate that there is quite a bit more to larger more expensive drivers like the UXL or LMS than a 3dB difference in some CEA-2010 burst numbers or the land of winisd simulation where everything has perfect behavior up to and past the limits.

Food for thought.
post #9703 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


This should be a good quality and value Pre pro that Emotiva is coming out with to capitalize on all the customers they sell amps to but it wont be anything special. The Integra 80.3 & Onkyo 5509 are still better offerings and by the time Emotiva gets the XMC-1 out other companies will have the next generation of AVRs and pre-pros out too.
Chris
Oh I meant xmc-1 vs denon 4000
post #9704 of 18329
Interesting post there N8DOGG, thanks for pulling that up.

Oh, and very nice theater room you have there. Looks like a great place to watch a movie...and try to stay warm. I used to live in Alaska and you can keep the cold thank you very much.

Regarding the UXL18, with the price difference over the SI18, it would have to have a huge difference in sound quality vs the SI18 for me to strongly consider it. This is primarily since I won't be output limited if I go with 3 DO SI18s as my volume control stops way before Popalocks.smile.gif
post #9705 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

+1

That is the setting that kills the subs on my processor. I believe if you setup the speakers and bass management on your source (CD or bluray player) then you could get subwoofer with you mains as well even in pure direct mode.
I thought all pure mode did was remove all processing? I'm going to have to test it out now.
post #9706 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

Interesting post there N8DOGG, thanks for pulling that up.

Oh, and very nice theater room you have there. Looks like a great place to watch a movie...and try to stay warm. I used to live in Alaska and you can keep the cold thank you very much.

Regarding the UXL18, with the price difference over the SI18, it would have to have a huge difference in sound quality vs the SI18 for me to strongly consider it. This is primarily since I won't be output limited if I go with 3 DO SI18s as my volume control stops way before Popalocks.smile.gif

3 UXL's will give you the same spl as 6 SI's with the same amp power to both. Pop has enough that he never has to worry about driving them into compression, he "should" always have great SQ (depending on how volume happy he gets I guess) biggrin.gif

It's just options. I can't say that there will be soe huge difference in SQ as I just don't know. But what I do know is that the UXL's quality is some of the best on the market.
post #9707 of 18329
Isn't the UXL what HuskerOmaha bought? He had quite a few problems with his before he got them all straightened out I thought?
post #9708 of 18329
Thanks. It's always good to have options. And how big of a sealed box does a single UXL18 want/need to get the best extension with about 2,000 watts?

I could model it later but the quick cliff notes version please. smile.gif
post #9709 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Isn't the UXL what HuskerOmaha bought? He had quite a few problems with his before he got them all straightened out I thought?

Heers his thread, seem to be it was his SpeakON connector and couldn't get one sub to seal properly, though it's all sorted out it seems. : http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387665/2-lg-clone-4-uxl-18-pi-18/480

As far as the box dgage, I personally like a 4 CF box with good bracing. Net internal volume will be right around 3.5 CF with bracing and driver which is perfect. I have 2 UXL's in my G-horn cabs and have 1 channel of my clones going to each driver which is around 2600 watts as tested.
post #9710 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I demoed my L/C/R JTR 228HT and dual Captivator Pro subwoofer setup for forum 7channelfreak today who hails from Texas. He is stopping by carps next to compare the 212HT and see which L/C/R he will choose to buy based on these two demos. He asked me if I had plans to change anything soon I said no. Slightly embarrassing, but I got giddy when I was demoing my JTR equipment. It's simply so excellent it makes me smile uncontrollably. I'm as pleased as can be with the JTR purchases. My Captivator subs still make me laugh out loud at their ridiculous output two years into ownership, and the 228HT are a fantastic match for dynamic and clean sounding speakers! Movie clip watching is nothing short of Incredible! Randy asked if I ever felt I needed to go to the movie theaters anymore and I said no - and he said he can see why.

We didn't go above -5 from reference, subs were ~6dB hot. Most clips we watched at -10 and -12. Some as loud as -7.5, one clip we watched at -5dB ( a clip from the Michael Jackson This is it tribute). I was trying to be respectful of Randy's ears, and stated listening preferences, which was about -12dB (same as me for day to day movie use) - - - but it's tough not to pump the volume up a little something extra for a demo! We watched the Brave intro at -12, and we both were laughing at how good it sounded. The bear's intro is so savagely dynamic in comparison to the quiet little cute picnic intro! Randy said he felt that it raised his blood pressure and gave him sweaty palms --- at least between that scene and the Cloverfield monster scene. It definitely gets the endorphins going! Fight or Flight reactions manifest with a demo like this!

And the ported subs obviously continue to move some air! I love feeling the 'wind' from the ported subs to match the onscreen action.

JTR is just EXCELLENT equipment!


Randy came over to my place after his demo at Jonathan's. We had a great time listening to music and watching a few movie scenes, not surprisingly we spent most of the time listening to music. I have a playlist of songs in Winamp that I use for demo's. I tried to get a nice variety, most are not my style of music but I still enjoy all of the songs since they sound so good. I usually do around 30 seconds to 1 minute for each song.
Here is that playlist:

Michael Buble - The Best is Yet To Come
Rascal Flatts - Prayin' for Daylight
Nora Jones - Turn Me On
Lady Gaga - The Fame
Katy Perry - Hot N Cold
haha, did I mention most of these aren't "my" music?!
Il Divo - Wicked Game
Metallica - The Unforgiven
Bassotronics - Bass I Love You
Metallica - Bleeding Me
(Jeez even the 2 Metallica songs are post sellout era)
Pendulum - The Tempest
Cyrill Lutzelschwab - Boxenkiller
Days of the New - Shelf in the Room
Deadmau5 - Ghost N Stuff
Ellie Goulding - Lights
Dire Straits - Money for Nothing
Green Day - Boulevard of Broken Dreams

Randy told me about 10 minuted into the demo that he's already made his mind up and is going to buy JTR speakers to go with his Cap 2 that he just bought used (he plans on buying a second one down the road). He lives in Houston so no basements which means his room will be on a suspended floor. That sub is going to destroy in a room like that. He showed me the plans for his room, it's going to be impressive, it will be a fully dedicated theater room with an AT screen that's over 130 inches in size. If I'm ever close to Houston I'm going to have to check it out.

I ran through that list again yesterday for my wife's sister and boyfriend who are in town from San Fransisco. I think it's a pretty decent list, lots of variety. On Saturday Randy (7 channel freak) had me play the song Royals by Lorde. I had never heard it, it is a great demo song IMO. Very nice catchy tune and great female vocals with tight punchy bass.

Last night was a lot of fun, after the music demo we had a movie night. The room has gotten to the point that I can fit a lot of people in it for a movie night. We had 14 people: 4 kids, 2 teenagers, and 8 adults and we fit fine. Having the second row and bar table was something I should have done a long time ago.






Have to include the ridiculous amount of drivers shot:







Oh, and get this. My wife's sister's boyfriend is an audiologist eek.gif. Very nice guy and enjoyed the demo. I had a long conversation with him about hearing issues with loud music and frequencies etc. He said he is going to look into seeing if there are any studies or anything else published regarding low frequencies and if they are less damaging to hearing compared to the same db levels of mid's and highs. It is his belief that they are not but he also doubts that he will find anything confirming that belief. He said I could use the A weighting on my Rat shack meter and be just fine when I'm checking to make sure the db's aren't too high, since the low frequencies aren't taken into account using A.
post #9711 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I demoed my L/C/R JTR 228HT and dual Captivator Pro subwoofer setup for forum 7channelfreak today who hails from Texas. He is stopping by carps next to compare the 212HT and see which L/C/R he will choose to buy based on these two demos. He asked me if I had plans to change anything soon I said no. Slightly embarrassing, but I got giddy when I was demoing my JTR equipment. It's simply so excellent it makes me smile uncontrollably. I'm as pleased as can be with the JTR purchases. My Captivator subs still make me laugh out loud at their ridiculous output two years into ownership, and the 228HT are a fantastic match for dynamic and clean sounding speakers! Movie clip watching is nothing short of Incredible! Randy asked if I ever felt I needed to go to the movie theaters anymore and I said no - and he said he can see why.

We didn't go above -5 from reference, subs were ~6dB hot. Most clips we watched at -10 and -12. Some as loud as -7.5, one clip we watched at -5dB ( a clip from the Michael Jackson This is it tribute). I was trying to be respectful of Randy's ears, and stated listening preferences, which was about -12dB (same as me for day to day movie use) - - - but it's tough not to pump the volume up a little something extra for a demo! We watched the Brave intro at -12, and we both were laughing at how good it sounded. The bear's intro is so savagely dynamic in comparison to the quiet little cute picnic intro! Randy said he felt that it raised his blood pressure and gave him sweaty palms --- at least between that scene and the Cloverfield monster scene. It definitely gets the endorphins going! Fight or Flight reactions manifest with a demo like this!

And the ported subs obviously continue to move some air! I love feeling the 'wind' from the ported subs to match the onscreen action.

JTR is just EXCELLENT equipment!


Yes...Archaea and Carp was so gracious enough to let me in to their homes on a holiday weekend to check out the Noesis. So first....thank you both!!! It is greatly appreciated.

I had heard some triple 8s and an S2 in Houston (home city) and knew they were good but I had to hear the Noesis as I'm planning my first dedicated room. As Archaea pointed out, I had a bit of a physical reaction to the dual Caps and Noesis. I would compare it the first time you are standing next to a dragster and it does its burn-out. It's just raw power. Really dynamic. I certainly could have spent a great deal of time just going through different songs and clips but after about an hour and half I had to get over to Carps to stay on schedule. I left with the goofy grin and a bit of adrenalin pumping and saying to myself 'that was Ef'ing awesome.'

As I walked down the stairs at Carp's, I couldn't help but to notice he likes his subs. Look at the pictures for cryin' out loud. We did lots of music and some movie clips and now I have heard the Noesis 228 and the 212 in different rooms and had my answer. They are for real and the hype is warranted.

A little back story, as I mentioned I'm planning a dedicated room (my first) and once I had decided I was going with an AT screen, I needed to sell my current gear. I had the Def Tech 7001, CLR 3000 and two SVS PB13Us for the front. It was all too deep for my upcoming room behind a false wall. I liked it enough and I thought it was great for movies and fair for music. When I sold my previous Infinity Kappa 9s, I knew then I was taking a step out of the finer sound musically to get in to the home theater realm. I think that's fair to say that the Def Techs was not nearly as musical as my previous Kappa 9s. I tend to keep speakers for many years and that's why i'm strategically looking and evaluating.

So my evaluation of Noesis....I can see where people draw the lines that they do. I loved the 228s. I think it would be hard pressed to find a better sounding speaker (especially for the money). I am giving them serious consideration for my next speakers. I'm just not sure how much dedicated music listening I would do in a home theater room. I might do more since it will be treated acoustically. I use to sit and listen more critically than I do now. Is that because I didn't find the 7001s overly impressive musically!?! maybe.... I liked their sound but I wasn't in love with it. Maybe it's cause I really liked the ribbon tweeters of my previous Kappas and they were a 5 way speaker with 2-12 inch woofers in each side driven by a B&K amp. So what about the 212s. I think everyone is spot on. They have a larger sound stage. It reminds me of when I use to have some Carver gear back in the late 80s and early 90s and it had a feature called Sonic Holography. It would really open up on certain songs and give you a bit of 3D listening experience. I just want to remind you that that was artificial and worked on most songs and I really enjoyed it. The 212s have that all the time!! It's wider and taller all the time!!

You can't go wrong with the 228s. They are very good and they very well may be my choice when I get moved next month. They sound identical to me as the 212s in the movie clips. I did listen to them in two different rooms but i think most tend to agree with me here. As for the 212s, if you listen to FLAC files and/or know what resolution your mp3s are encoded, they you should find a way to come up with the extra $$ to get the 212s. They sound so big. It's just a wall of sound. Either way.....you will be impressed with the JTRs. I know I am.

The truth is...I am pretty set on getting JTR. But I'm headed to CEDIA and I told myself to go listen to Procella, Traid and any others with an open mind. I may only be kidding myself but I have already paid for the trip. I guess I will go listen to the competition but I can see me spending far more time on projectors and screens as I have set my sites on JTR for sound.
post #9712 of 18329
I look forward to hearing what he says about that. Man, I also love that shot of your front stage. I just went to wall to wall with the new build so now I have no choice but to just keep everything hidden biggrin.gif You can also kind of see the addition of the ATS ceiling panels where they look darker than the rest behind the last row of lights. Those made quite a difference for sure, but I need at least one more row of them, which runs me into light issues as the ATS panels won't hold up the lights all on their own.

post #9713 of 18329
Ohhhh.....,I completely forgot to echo the comments made about how the Noesis' handle increasing volume. They tend to get more clear as you push the volume. It's a bit backwards from all the other speakers I've heard previously. It's a paradox I guess. As you get closer to reference, the clarity continues to improve.

There was one time that I was telling Jonathon a story and I completely lost my train of thought as I was caught up in the detail of the Noesis. You just hear the fine detail of instruments. It's very cool to hear all the nuances.

Can you tell I like them?
post #9714 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post

Yes...Archaea and Carp was so gracious enough to let me in to their homes on a holiday weekend to check out the Noesis. So first....thank you both!!! It is greatly appreciated.

I had heard some triple 8s and an S2 in Houston (home city) and knew they were good but I had to hear the Noesis as I'm planning my first dedicated room. As Archaea pointed out, I had a bit of a physical reaction to the dual Caps and Noesis. I would compare it the first time you are standing next to a dragster and it does its burn-out. It's just raw power. Really dynamic. I certainly could have spent a great deal of time just going through different songs and clips but after about an hour and half I had to get over to Carps to stay on schedule. I left with the goofy grin and a bit of adrenalin pumping and saying to myself 'that was Ef'ing awesome.'

As I walked down the stairs at Carp's, I couldn't help but to notice he likes his subs. Look at the pictures for cryin' out loud. We did lots of music and some movie clips and now I have heard the Noesis 228 and the 212 in different rooms and had my answer. They are for real and the hype is warranted.

A little back story, as I mentioned I'm planning a dedicated room (my first) and once I had decided I was going with an AT screen, I needed to sell my current gear. I had the Def Tech 7001, CLR 3000 and two SVS PB13Us for the front. It was all too deep for my upcoming room behind a false wall. I liked it enough and I thought it was great for movies and fair for music. When I sold my previous Infinity Kappa 9s, I knew then I was taking a step out of the finer sound musically to get in to the home theater realm. I think that's fair to say that the Def Techs was not nearly as musical as my previous Kappa 9s. I tend to keep speakers for many years and that's why i'm strategically looking and evaluating.

So my evaluation of Noesis....I can see where people draw the lines that they do. I loved the 228s. I think it would be hard pressed to find a better sounding speaker (especially for the money). I am giving them serious consideration for my next speakers. I'm just not sure how much dedicated music listening I would do in a home theater room. I might do more since it will be treated acoustically. I use to sit and listen more critically than I do now. Is that because I didn't find the 7001s overly impressive musically!?! maybe.... I liked their sound but I wasn't in love with it. Maybe it's cause I really liked the ribbon tweeters of my previous Kappas and they were a 5 way speaker with 2-12 inch woofers in each side driven by a B&K amp. So what about the 212s. I think everyone is spot on. They have a larger sound stage. It reminds me of when I use to have some Carver gear back in the late 80s and early 90s and it had a feature called Sonic Holography. It would really open up on certain songs and give you a bit of 3D listening experience. I just want to remind you that that was artificial and worked on most songs and I really enjoyed it. The 212s have that all the time!! It's wider and taller all the time!!

You can't go wrong with the 228s. They are very good and they very well may be my choice when I get moved next month. They sound identical to me as the 212s in the movie clips. I did listen to them in two different rooms but i think most tend to agree with me here. As for the 212s, if you listen to FLAC files and/or know what resolution your mp3s are encoded, they you should find a way to come up with the extra $$ to get the 212s. They sound so big. It's just a wall of sound. Either way.....you will be impressed with the JTRs. I know I am.

The truth is...I am pretty set on getting JTR. But I'm headed to CEDIA and I told myself to go listen to Procella, Traid and any others with an open mind. I may only be kidding myself but I have already paid for the trip. I guess I will go listen to the competition but I can see me spending far more time on projectors and screens as I have set my sites on JTR for sound.

Great post, that was some good reading. I just ordered up a set of 228's for the front three to replace my 7001's and 3000 as well. I couldnt resist the temptation that this thread threw at me.
post #9715 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I look forward to hearing what he says about that. Man, I also love that shot of your front stage. I just went to wall to wall with the new build so now I have no choice but to just keep everything hidden biggrin.gif You can also kind of see the addition of the ATS ceiling panels where they look darker than the rest behind the last row of lights. Those made quite a difference for sure, but I need at least one more row of them, which runs me into light issues as the ATS panels won't hold up the lights all on their own.


Would it be possible to move the can lights themeselves back to the next row? I'm completely ignorant of how much work that would take or how feasible it would be. If you did that you would have the added benefit of less light on the screen in case you like to watch sports or tv with the lights on.

Wow, I didn't realize how treated your room is I bet it sounds amazing.
post #9716 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post

Ohhhh.....,I completely forgot to echo the comments made about how the Noesis' handle increasing volume. They tend to get more clear as you push the volume. It's a bit backwards from all the other speakers I've heard previously. It's a paradox I guess. As you get closer to reference, the clarity continues to improve.

There was one time that I was telling Jonathon a story and I completely lost my train of thought as I was caught up in the detail of the Noesis. You just hear the fine detail of instruments. It's very cool to hear all the nuances.

Can you tell I like them?

I have heard Procella but never Triad, let us know how CEDIA goes - sounds like fun. smile.gif
post #9717 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I look forward to hearing what he says about that. Man, I also love that shot of your front stage. I just went to wall to wall with the new build so now I have no choice but to just keep everything hidden biggrin.gif You can also kind of see the addition of the ATS ceiling panels where they look darker than the rest behind the last row of lights. Those made quite a difference for sure, but I need at least one more row of them, which runs me into light issues as the ATS panels won't hold up the lights all on their own.

hey beast not sure if I missed it, but did you ever run the Danleys with the larger amp? I forget which one you were going to run through them but let me know. Sorry if I missed it.
post #9718 of 18329
I appreciate all of the feedback so far and I'm close to picking a sub system. Actually waiting on a forum member that may be selling some DIY drivers.

So it looks like I am pretty much decided on the Noesis 212HTs as I do want to listen to a little music and do want strong midbass.

So my questions are related to surrounds, presumably Slanted 8s. Should I go for 5.1 or 7.1 in my small room? Where should the speakers be placed? Really my only options are up near the ceiling angled down and if 5.1 I'd assume put them in the rear corners angled down towards the center of the room. What about 7.1? I'm a little worried that the side couches would be right under the side surrounds.

Also, instead of Slanted 8s, I have some really nice NHT IC4 (8" with 3-1" tweeters in a tri-pole configuration) ceiling speakers that I could use if that would be better for my room. Not a better speaker obviously but an option I have.



Thanks.

David
post #9719 of 18329
Question on mounting of the slant version of the 8HT.
My surrounds use surface track to hide the wire. It looks like the slant 8s mount flat to the wall surface. Is there any space to feed a 12 gauge wire behind it like a slot cut into the back? Or do the mounts give a little clearance? Would be difficult to get into the wall to feed straight behind the speaker.
post #9720 of 18329
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

I appreciate all of the feedback so far and I'm close to picking a sub system. Actually waiting on a forum member that may be selling some DIY drivers.

So it looks like I am pretty much decided on the Noesis 212HTs as I do want to listen to a little music and do want strong midbass.

So my questions are related to surrounds, presumably Slanted 8s. Should I go for 5.1 or 7.1 in my small room? Where should the speakers be placed? Really my only options are up near the ceiling angled down and if 5.1 I'd assume put them in the rear corners angled down towards the center of the room. What about 7.1? I'm a little worried that the side couches would be right under the side surrounds.

Also, instead of Slanted 8s, I have some really nice NHT IC4 (8" with 3-1" tweeters in a tri-pole configuration) ceiling speakers that I could use if that would be better for my room. Not a better speaker obviously but an option I have.



Thanks.

David
Since you already have the NHT IC4 might as well start with that. At first you will be so overwhelmed with the 212 the surrounds wont matter. As you get the 212s trimmed into the system start doing some critical listening and see what you think/hear. If you want something more order 2 x Slanted 8s. Experiment with both side and rear mounting. If you want more add 2 x slanted 8s making the surround total 4. There really is no wrong way of doing it.
Approaching it this way proves, if only to yourself, whether or not the slanted 8s were warranted. It will also give you a chance to see if you feel the NHTs can hang with the 212s.
Once you have your 212s up and running what is needed for your taste in surrounds will become more obvious.
Chris

You may want to think about a combination of Single 8 or Single 8-LP for sides and Slanted 8s for rears. The S8 series is the same speaker in 3 different cabinets for more mounting or placement options.
Edited by countryWV - 9/4/13 at 5:11am
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