Diva Swans-Best Speaker for the money EVER? - Page 2  

Have you lisned to the Paradigm Studio 40s and if so, how do you feel the Diva 4.1 match up?

How do these compare to the Magnepan MMGs?

Also, where on the ********** webpage can you find the center and surround speakers? I could not find them.

Thanks,

C.E. Tekell

Hbart, unfortunately one of the drawbacks of buying speakers direct, without the benefit of showroom auditions, is the fact that the listener has to rely on the ears of the reviewers. In my case, I was lucky enough to hear them for myself for a brief period, but even in that small time I found myself very impresssed, especially in terms of bang for the buck (see my comments above), and so I understand a little better why the reviewer was also excited about these new speakers.

I am going to take John's advice and write to JJ to ask about the possibility of comparing several models in the Diva line, as this would provide valuable information to potential owners of these speakers. I have read a great deal of the articles on the "Secrets of Home Theater" site and have been very impressed with the reviews and accuracy of information that this wonderful team provides, and so I guess I get a little defensive when I feel they are being attacked, even if only mildly so. People will not always agree with their assessments, but they always tell you what they really think, rather than just provide "maybe you will like it, maybe you won't" types of reviews that so many other magazines provide, and which I personally find totally useless. I have a lot more respect for people who take a stand, whether I agree with them or not. Hbart, I apologize if I came on a little strong. I've never been known for my tactful approach http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

John, do you have a direct email address for JJ? The only one I found on the site was staff@hometheaterhifi.com, and I just wanted to make sure that Mr. Johnson gets the email properly.

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[This message has been edited by Bob Sorel (edited 06-20-2001).]

Many thanks for all of the great info! I always love finding out about new gadgets!

Regards,

C.E. Tekell

KLee,

If your question of comparing the Diva 4.1 vs. Paradigm Studio 100s is directed to me, I remain blissfully ignorant of the sound of either of these speakers.

See above my comments that I haven't heard the 4.1s yet, and I also haven't heard the Paradigm Studio 100s.

Regards,



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Editor, PC/Home Theater Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

Ctekell,

The Divas are more dynamic, and have much better bass slam.

OTOH the Maggies are open, and clear until pushed beyond their limits.

Tough call, I have a fondness for planars, and so would probably vote for the Maggie MMGs over everything but the 6.1s.

Regards,



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Editor, PC/Home Theater Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

Greetings from PanYu City, PRC...

I can tell you that there are actually two different centers and surrounds... We are working madly on updating our site with this information. I know we will have C-3 and R-3 soon as I'm in China now.

Thanks for your kind comments and interest in our products...

All the best...

mls

Whoah!

Are you saying the Diva can compete Magna-Planers?

Are there any European distributors yet ?

I'd like to get my hands on a pair for a review at

http://hifi-plaza.com

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Frederic Vanden Poel

Klee,

You are reading something in to my comment that I didn't say.

My point is vs. the MMGs only -- and if you read it, I said I'd prefer only the 6.1s vs. the MMGs.

Change over to different Maggies, and my opinion might change.

Regards,



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Editor, PC/Home Theater Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

I have listened to several models of the Diva line now, and I feel they would be best mated with an outboard power amp that has laid back high frequencies, such as the Rotel RMB-1095. That tweeter sitting on top really projects the detail. Of course, that is only my opinion. I am older than most of you (55), and I tend not to like too much high frequency sound. If you are going to use just a pair of Divas for two channel audio, then mate them with a tube power amplifier.

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John Johnson
Editor, Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com

Mark & John:

Thanks for taking time out from your busy schedules to join in on the Diva talk.http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

John, Ed on HTF is driving his 6.1's with a tube amp, I believe but what do you think about a tube preamp and a SS amp such as the Line 3 & 7B?

Mark, is PanYu City where the HiVi factory is? You mention the C3 & R3, are they the existing or upcoming models? I am about to get the 6.1's but am waiting to find out more on matching center & surrounds before placing my order. The midrange driver of the center speaker doesn't seem to match the Kelvar midrange of the 6.1's and how about the center & surround woofer sizes? Will they match those in the 6.1's?

Btw, I now have a new wish on my P-1A and that is for it to be able to hold the SOCS for both of my speakers.http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Cheers.

PF

Back to the original post, blow Paradigm out of the water? NO LOL...I can sell my Paradigm Mini-MKIII's today on e-bay for $150, I paid about $260 for them about 5 years ago. that means net cost is $110 for a highly acclaimed set of mid-fi speakers. I am about to buy some Studio series...I know in another 5 years assuming I keep them in excellent shape they will be easily sold for about 1/2 or more than what I paid. Try and sell some Swan Divas. The market is too small, no one knows about them. No one can hear them unless they are willing to take a chance on the 30 day demo, or knows someone who has them.

Now, I'm not saying they aren't great speakers...as far as I know they and the NOHRS are. It's just that when you take re-sale of some better known speakers into consideration....the Internet only speakers are less a bargain.



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my toys at www.sdiver.org

Thank you for your reply... and the pleasure is all mine...

PanYu City (part of Guangzhou) is where one of the factories is located for Diva. I'm here however to work on a new line called Genesis 2000 which will be a range of higher end offerings... really neat stuff, BTW...

You are right in noting that the midrange driver is NOT the same. It's a sensational copy of the world famous "ATC-style" dome. This driver is fast... fast... fast, and is PERFECT for dialog applications...

Please forgive me as I do not have all of the spec data on the driver sizes with me... I think I remember all of these calls outs... but better to check with Steve at our office, or Greg.

Thanks once again...

Wishing you all the best...

mls

(BTW... we have an interesting way we can give you up to 9 curves in your P-1A. You'll be hearing about this soon)...




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Founder and President
Perpetual Technologies and www.**********

Ben... may I also add that EVERY container comes with a CD/R with test measurement data (a suite of measured performance information) taken on each speaker. We can compare this data to our own test and QC sets to make sure that everything is perfect...

No fooling... we have all of the bases covered on this...

Thanks once again...

All the best...

mls

TextText

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Founder and President
Perpetual Technologies and www.**********

Mark, I am really glad to see your presence here. This is the kind of company and the you are the kind of person that represent the ideal model of integrity, consumer care and communication, and quality control that separates you from the bunch. After personally hearing and seeing the Diva 4.1's at the New York show, I wouldn't hesitate to buy any model in your entire line. Kudos for a job well done!

Hmmm....I guess if I had bought the Paradigm's, I would also be concerned about their resale value. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Enough said.


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[This message has been edited by Bob Sorel (edited 06-22-2001).]

Bob,

If you think any $1000 speaker is the end all be all, then like you said, enough said. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/eek.gif

Please don't get me wrong. Based on some of the coversation here it sounds like the Divas are fine speakers and a great value. It's also obvious that the company is dedicated to doing things right. I'd love to hear them. In fact, I've often wondered about opening an appointment only "showroom" in my house for some of the highly regarded internet only companies such as Divas, Audio Outlaw, SVS, Nohr, Monitor Audio. Of course, that eliminates some of the efficiency of the internet only business model but if you had enthusiasts from several of the large cities doing so for a small %, maybe it would be viable? Think of it as Audio version of a Tupperware lady.

The only point I was making was in the value department, re-sale value has to be taken into consideration.

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my toys at www.sdiver.org

[This message has been edited by Steve_D (edited 06-22-2001).]

Thanks for the response Mark and I am excited to hear about the P-1A's capability. I guess there will be some Diva's in the house soon.http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Since Steve brought it up, is PT or AV123 looking for a Texas, specifically San Antonio delegate to demo their gear? If so count me in.http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

PF

Steve, please don't get me wrong, I fully understand your point. I guess my buying habits are just different than most others, as I never consider resale value when I buy anything. I buy equipment because it is the best value I can afford at the time, and if the day comes that I can afford something better, then I don't particularly care what my old equipment is worth. After hearing the 4.1's in New York, at a price of $699 per pair, I feel that I would have to spend at least $5000 per pair for the next significant step up in quality, maybe more. If I could afford this next step, then the amount I would recoup on the $699 I had spent on the 4.1's would be basically meaningless as far as I am concerned. I would rather take the old speakers and use them in another room with another system.

About two years ago, before I got involved with DIY sub and speaker building, my first speaker upgrade (from my old Roy Allyson speakers) was a tough decision. I auditioned the Monitor Audio Silver Series and the Paradigm Studio Series at a local dealer, and neither of those brands impressed me enough to spend the money. Maybe the dealer just didn't know how to set them up correctly or had them connected to the wrong gear, but both those brands left me with a feeling of "they are so close in quality to what I currently own, why bother spending the money?" Then I heard some B&W Nautilus speakers and they impressed me....big time. And then some Dynaudios....woohoo! Maybe Monitor Audio and Paradigm are actually very good companies, but their products never excited me (remember, this is just my opinion, and others might feel totally different), and that explains why I have a less than enthusiastic attitude towards both of those companies. But the Diva 4.1's for $699 a pair....now that's exciting!

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[This message has been edited by Bob Sorel (edited 06-22-2001).]

Bob,

Interesting that you mention B&W and Dynaudio, as I'm in an upgrade phase right now and have auditioned several in the $1000 or so/pair monitor range. You can read my comments here:
http://www.audioreview.com/reviews/S...ct_67642.shtml

on the Dynaudio 52.


I, too, didn't care for Paradigms metal tweeters until the v.2 Studios came out, thought they were too bright. The B&W CDM series sounded somewhat disjointed, as if you can tell they put in a highest quality tweeter with slightly lower quality mid-woof and cabinet (oh, BTW, that's exactly what they did). It's funny that you prefer the Dyn sound, I prefer the new Para Studio sound, yet we both seem to agree on the 805's.

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my toys at www.sdiver.org

Steve_D and other Paradigm owners/entusiasts:

I think you guys should know that Bob Sorel has a tendency to make rather ... shall we say "enthusiastic" comments concerning audio equipment. They tend to become more dramatic as time goes on. I just thought you should know this when reading his comments concerning Paradigm Speakers vs the Divas. I am not saying that the Divas are not a great speaker. I've never heard them before. And Bob, I am not intending to offend you with this post, but I do believe it is unfair to make the Paradigm's sound so inferior to these Divas based on some auditions you did 2 years ago which you yourself admit that "Maybe the dealer just didn't know how to set them up correctly"

Just for reference, I thought I'd share some of Bob's other enthusiastic comments from the past to shed some light on the argument which has currently evolved:


Here it gets a little more exciting! Weeeeee!!!





Again, I am not trying to get anyone's goat here. I own Paradgim speakers and love them. Bob owns DIY speakers and loves them. Just wanted to point out some sensational journalism http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/eek.gif

reaper

ps. Also, you have to remember, Bob listens to music at 120dB. That's all I will say on that subject http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif hehe

[This message has been edited by reaper (edited 06-22-2001).]

Hehe, reaper, I agree, I get enthusiastic about products that I like, and three products in my past come to mind: The TAG McLaren AV32R, the HE 15 subwoofer, and my Dynaudio Gemini DIY speakers. I make a concerted effort not to mention the tons of other pieces that I have listened to, but don't particularly like, as I don't feel the need to say negative things about other company's products (though if you check into all 1200+ posts of mine, like you have already done, I am sure you will find examples). Would you feel better if I were to get equally excited about lesser products? I have tried hard not to put down Paradigm speakers, but owners still feel the need to try to discredit my enthusiasm for the Divas. I apologize if I somehow rained on your Paradigm parade.

The Dynaudio Gemini speakers still remain a tremendous value for the money, but the Diva 4.1's might represent a better value, though as I said earlier, I would have to carefully level match them to make a fair comparison. Have you heard either of these speakers?

(Aside: Steve, the Gemini's that I own use the 17W-75 midwoofs of the Contour 1.3's, with the Esotec D-260 tweeter from the Contour 2.5's, in a small MTM arrangement, for comparison's sake. The Audience series uses lower quality drivers.)

The HE 15 dual driver subwoofer, powered by a Crown K2, is unequalled by any commercial subwoofer that I am aware of (except for maybe the ~$30,000 Krell MRS), and these findings are not my own, but those of Tom Nousaine. Once again, have you heard this subwoofer?

My first comment in this thread said outright that I am a DIY kind of guy, and that I thought I could build better speakers for less money, so I don't think I have contradicted myself anywhere. I have heard the $120,000 Alon speakers while I was in New York, and there is no doubt in my mind that I could construct speakers as good as those (there's no big secret to line arrays) for a small fraction of the cost, though I have absolutely no interest to do so.

Speakers have traditionally been the easiest part in the audio chain to DIY for a small fraction of the cost. Some companies, like B&W, do not release their drivers to the public, so they can not be duplicated for any cost. But other companies, like Wilson, use stock drivers by ScanSpeak and Focal, and speakers like the Watt/Puppies can easily be duplicated for 10 cents on the dollar. The Diva 4.1's are such a great value at $699, I don't think I could duplicate them for much less than that (if the drivers are available), so DIY'ing those speakers would be pointless.

So what's the point of all this? Yes, I get excited about things that deserve to get excited about, and the Diva 4.1's deserve to get excited about, as they push the price/performance ratio to the max, and I always get excited about a GREAT DEAL! Like I said earlier, I am not even planning on buying them, as I am a DIY kind of guy, so what could possibly be my motivation to "sensationalize" these speakers, other than the fact that they DESERVE it. You may not agree with my assessment, but at least I tell it like I see it, and I sleep well at night because I am honest to a fault. So laugh all you want...It is not I that is unaware of the possibilities http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

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[This message has been edited by Bob Sorel (edited 06-22-2001).]

Not at all. I love your enthusiasm Bob! And I would have minimal respect for you if it was applied to "lesser products".

I have not tried to discredit your enthusiasm for the Divas. They could very well be an outstanding loudspeaker. I think it is great to have someone aboard the forum who has had a chance to listen to them. I just find myself feeling the necessity of posting a response when you make it sound as though Paradigm owners should be exercising their ebay accounts. I personally love my Paradigms and enjoy them every day. I'm sure you will be the first to agree that speakers are a very personal preference. So, some people may find the Paradigm experience better than the Diva experience... plus have greater resale options in the future if ever the need arises. BTW, people resell speakers for many reasons, such as moving or needing the money. So, it is not always dissatisfaction that drives them to the auction blocks.

Like I said, I love my speakers and have not second guessed myself once since the purchase. I like your review as well. I just thought that other Paradigm owners might like some of the info I provided above. People have a tendency to read rave reviews and throw caution to the wind and upgrade ASAP. Unfortunately, your ravings sometimes hinge upon insults of other speakers. It is quite possible to rave about a speaker without bringing other speakers down. I realize this situation is exempt because you were specifically asked how they compare to Paradigm and gave your honest response.

Of course I have not had the priveledge to audition DIY speakers or web sold systems as most people on this forum. It would be a great opportunity. In fact I consider following you into the hobby someday largely based on your enthusiasm.

Overall, I enjoy your posts/reviews/enthusiasm. My post was solely intended to tell Paradigm owners out there that they do have a very nice speaker system and to put your comments into perspective.

You never responded to my comment above about your listening level preferences hehehe...

enjoying our exchange, reaper http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Reaper,

No doubt that Bob is excited. As he well should be. Of the comments you have cited above, the only ones which I would add a note of caution to would be about the equalling of the $100,000 systems. First, the remarks on cost savings is so extreme to the DIYer since all the labor is not counted as it is personal time that Bob, and many others get great enjoyment from.

The Gemini speakers are a professionally developed kit, so the crossover has been optomized to a good degree. The optomization of the crossover is probably the most significant difference where a manufacturer often has better resources and ideally knowledge than enthusiastic DIYers. That said, getting a speaker to market and manufactured, does not make a designer knowledgeable or an expert. There are many DIY systems which have certain strengths and weaknesses making them obviously "rough" as DIY solutions, but if a DIYer takes full advantage of resources available and works within their abilities, we can easily mate a system to our rooms which will far surpass all but the most extreme of retail systems.

I say this while being rather familiar with a few upper echelon systems, and having set up 2 pairs of Martin Logan Statement systems, a few Wilson loudspeakers, and fooled with some Genesis speakers among others. DIYers I know have equalled, and in some respects bettered, what most people get from these systems in their homes.

One of the reasons Bob's oppinion can be valued is that there are many products which have been adequate for many that Bob finds lacking for his tastes. For a subwoofer or a pair of speakers to impress him, I for one am interested. I'm not intending to make Bob out as some golden ear audio god, but rather someone who is rather critical, and a worthwhile oppinion.

Getting back to the Diva speakers, I do know the parts used are of unique quality to speakers in this price range, and with proper implementation, there is no reason they could not be superb performers.

Mark Seaton

Hehe, reaper, what did you say? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Yes, I listen at very high SPL's, mostly due to my many years playing music live, and my subsequent desire to recreate my experiences as faithfully and accurately as possible, and that means levels that would make most people run for cover http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif The trick is to find gear that can do it, and do it cleanly.

Maybe some day we can lure you into the "dark side". The problem is, once you go, you can never go back http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



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Bob,

While your quotes are being thrown around here:

When your done with the Gemini's let me know.......they'll make a nice match to my current fronts. :B

Rick.......from the dark side!!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Thank you very much for your kind comments Bob... I sincerely appreciate them...

This is now my 32nd. year in this industry, and I can share with everyone that the DIVA product represents the VERY BEST VALUE (Sound vs. Dollars Spent) I'm aware of. The entire DIVA line was benchmarked against (specifically) the B+W's and the Paradigms... We had to start somewhere... and these were our choices due to various market reasons.

We offer these speakers "direct to the end user" because we can change important industry paradigms that have existed forever... and we build these in China because we can offer a level of fit and finish (for the price) that CANNOT be matched.

I say the above as an owner of Genesis Technologies (my wife Lynn and I own a minority stake in this business) and with the knowledge I've gained being a close friend and associate of Arnie Nudell for almost 30 years. I'm 45 now... and I've worked alongside Arnie on projects dating back to the Servo-Statik I and IA... (sorry Arnie... we are both getting older now)...

I'd like to also offer my comments of a political nature here as there is a RAGING debate about the "politics" of buying a Chinese made product on another Board...

These are some of the nicest and most dedicated people I have ever known. I thoroughly enjoy living in China 1/2 time... and I wouldn't trade the experiences I've had here for ANYTHING... I miss my wife terribly and our Granddaughter (we are raising our Granddaughter Gracie as many of you know... that know me)... but they "get it"... as we are doing something very important at P-Tech and AV123.

(Political Message Over Now)........

You'll see some other interesting offerings from us soon from the East... I know they will amaze everyone as much, if not more, than DIVA spanning various disciplines.

Thanks again one and all for your support...

All the best...

mls



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Founder and President
Perpetual Technologies and www.**********