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Why aren't better CECB's available, and why can't the coupon buy a better DTV tuner? - Page 3

post #61 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

But they can't. The coupons can only be used on CECB's.

Well, yes. My point was why the restrictions are there in the first place for the second argument going on here, why HDs and recorders were not CECB eligible.

The other argument was why not higher end SDs. I think that was due to an extremely thin profit margin and a large number of brands in competition. Retailers were reluctant to carry more a couple CECB versions; when my coupons came, there were 59 approved brands. Knowing that's how it would be, if I were a manufacturer, I'd go for the basic product. Some people would pay more for features, but not enough to make it worth the risk. The CM7000 was initially priced $40 above coupon, available locally. Those boxes did not move until the price dropped.

Affordability is not a criterion for coupon use. True, hobbyists here got CECBs out of curiosity. Many of them had analog TVs, so the box ended up as intended, converting an analog TV. Others mentioned that when they were done playing, they passed the box along to someone with an analog TV. If they'd been HD eligible, those coupons would have been snapped up by people with older HD tuners. I assume that because of the rave reviews for the CECB tuners from people who had HDTVs.
post #62 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

Typical government way of thinking. Whether people used the coupons for more expensive boxes or not, the cost of the program would have been the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

You're still not grasping this simple concept. "Your own nickel" is being done NOW. My boxes both cost over $40. I paid the difference. That's my own nickel. That difference was about $10 and $15. So why can't consumers "up their own nickel" to 40, 50, 60 bucks, whatever?

Manufacturers can only sell CECBs at X price if they can achieve Y volume. Restricting the coupon helps manufacturers to achieve the volume necessary to hit the government's desired price target ($40-$60). It effectively guarantees a market for a certain number of CECBs, which significantly reduces the risk associated with the development and sale of those products.

Furthermore, the government only wants to subsidize those folks that need it most. People who can afford to spend the money on a HDTV aren't the intended target of this subsidy. This subsidy is meant for folks who don't have a MVPD and cannot afford to replace their older televisions. For political and logistical reasons, the government cannot control who is sent a coupon; the best they can do is restrict its use in a way that promotes the government's interest.
post #63 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

Your behavior is most puzzling and confusing. AFAIK, everyone was eligible to receive a coupon. I chose the appropriate option of having "cable in all or most rooms" (whatever it was) and I had no problem getting the coupons.

The main purpose of the program was first and foremost, people who had OTA reception ONLY. People who had cable on their primary set, but who also had secondary and tertiary televisions in the house that were OTA, were eligible also, but were of secondary priority.

My problem is with people like "NickDawg", who make statements about who should be eligible and who should not based on certain criteria he makes up, only to contradict that criteria in his own behavior. Hypocrite.
post #64 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post



Oh my! Cable goes off the air??? And, man, satellite goes bad too sometimes.

Geez, everyone in America should have been eligible to receive a coupon. Cable, satellite, whatever! I don't know why the government even bothered to ask whether you had cable or satellite in the house on the coupon application page!

kind of simple.

the funding priority was for people who were OTA only. there is a priority to help provide tuners to those who only had OTA and would loose all tv without it. helping provide backup tuners to those who had pay tv was less important.

the program was created to keep still usable displays out of the landfill and structured to keep people still being able to get free OTA tv without major investment. it did that.
post #65 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnpost View Post

kind of simple.

the funding priority was for people who were OTA only. there is a priority to help provide tuners to those who only had OTA and would loose all tv without it. helping provide backup tuners to those who had pay tv was less important.

the program was created to keep still usable displays out of the landfill and structured to keep people still being able to get free OTA tv without major investment. it did that.

Yes, I was being completely sarcastic in the post of mine that you quoted, and as you can see, I said the exact same thing you just did in the post immediately above yours.
post #66 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

Yes, I was being completely sarcastic in the post of mine that you quoted, and as you can see, I said the exact same thing you just did in the post immediately above yours.

i was making my reply before your post making the point about funding priority was on my screen. i can see it now but not at the time of my reply.
post #67 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

Do you mean the lack of timer recordings in VCR's, or in the boxes? Of course VCR's have timers, but some of the converter boxes do as well. That was one of my requirements when looking for one, but like I've been saying; all the ones with timers sucked in other departments (stripped down features elsewhere).

Boxes. A few have timers but like you said at the expense of other features. I feel that if the gov't had made it a standard requirement then the prices of the timer boxes wouldn't be jacked up. Plus timer boxes being a minority, it's hard for avg joe to get one. And the theoretical two per household makes it difficult to dedicate one box for timer recording (ideally a dual-tuner for this purpose would make sense but they'd have to bump up the coupon a little).
post #68 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnpost View Post

kind of simple.

the funding priority was for people who were OTA only. there is a priority to help provide tuners to those who only had OTA and would loose all tv without it. helping provide backup tuners to those who had pay tv was less important.

the program was created to keep still usable displays out of the landfill and structured to keep people still being able to get free OTA tv without major investment. it did that.

I think the core of the requirement is basically an FCC issue, they can't strip away our existing communication. Public service, etc. Of course your points are key as well.

Yeah, if they really wanted to be strict about it they wouln't have put in that checkbox to get coupons if you have cable, sat, etc. (i.e. in regards to the 'who should, who shouldn't get coupons' argument in this thread).
post #69 of 169
The checkbox about OTA vs. Pay TV was because they anticipated running out of funds. Congress approved two separate batches of funding initially. The first 2/3 was for anybody needing a CECB, whether OTA or pay tv. The last 1/3 was reserved for OTA only. They used the first batch until it ran out, then used expired funds from the first batch to keep pay TV requests funded, and used the second batch for OTA only. Both funds ran out at the same time, and after a 3 week delay got replenished with Recovery Act money. They never had to restrict coupons to OTA only.
post #70 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

The checkbox about OTA vs. Pay TV was because they anticipated running out of funds. Congress approved two separate batches of funding initially. The first 2/3 was for anybody needing a CECB, whether OTA or pay tv. The last 1/3 was reserved for OTA only. They used the first batch until it ran out, then used expired funds from the first batch to keep pay TV requests funded, and used the second batch for OTA only. Both funds ran out at the same time, and after a 3 week delay got replenished with Recovery Act money. They never had to restrict coupons to OTA only.

Impressive once again, you really know the history. My statement was purely theoretical in nature based on the argument in this thread. The gov't would probably waste away half the funds if they had to verify such - LOL. And what simpleton coupons; if I lose one the finder can go use it.
post #71 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post



Oh my! Cable goes off the air??? And, man, satellite goes bad too sometimes.

Geez, everyone in America should have been eligible to receive a coupon. Cable, satellite, whatever! I don't know why the government even bothered to ask whether you had cable or satellite in the house on the coupon application page!

Don't you remember the blackout of 2003? The power was out all night and I heard that even in areas where the power stayed on, the cable system was down because the headends were in areas where the power was out.

That's why there should be some form of a 'portable' TV as there used to be. The power is out, the TV doesn't work. Just wait until the next "event", whether it is a blackout or a hurricane. There's gonna be a lot of people disconnected and not know what the hell is going on.
post #72 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

Don't you remember the blackout of 2003? The power was out all night and I heard that even in areas where the power stayed on, the cable system was down because the headends were in areas where the power was out.

That's why there should be some form of a 'portable' TV as there used to be. The power is out, the TV doesn't work. Just wait until the next "event", whether it is a blackout or a hurricane. There's gonna be a lot of people disconnected and not know what the hell is going on.

More stupidity. All you need is a radio.
post #73 of 169
I almost hesitate to contribute to this pissing contest, but....
I'm sorry...did I mean "Spirited Debate" (LOL)

I am next to Houston, TX.

During the three weeks without electricity we experienced here from IKE,
not one friggin radio station had ANY information about ANYTHING.

I know because we got sick of TV repeating the same crap over and over
and resorted to music for entertainment often...

DO NOT rely on radio for shelter listings, FEMA food outlets, any usefull info at all!

They have a fixed budget is my guess, all I know is except for a sentence once an hour or so,
they offered no help whatsoever.

We jumped across about six stations trying to find music to match our taste's,
so I am not saying that about just one radio station.

I have a huge battery bank and effecient inverters with a generator to charge them every four days.
So perhaps I don't coun't as a good power outage example.

But a CECB that uses an external wall-wart/power-brick,
with a aftermarket/home-made cord to feed 12-Volts to it.

Paired with one of those laptop DVD players with A/V inputs
would last a fair amount of time on the average car battery.
Only the DVD motor uses anything substantial on them...

-OR-

eBay is flooded with super inexpensive portable TV's right now.
They are analog of course, but that is fine to feed a CECB into.

Still to this day there are no emergency radios that receive the new ATSC digital audio like the old emergency radios do.
Sure the AM/FM part works, but they still include analog TV.

So if your relying on a radio in a crisis, your basicly screwed!
Don't do it, just don't do it.

Have a radio too of course,
but get a TV setup of some kind!

An amplified indoor antenna can run off of 12-Volts too.

Those little round inline preamps (~10-Db Gain) from RS are negative ground and handle 12-Volts nicely.
Their gain is meager and shouldn't overload your CECB if your rural like us.

Radio Shack Catalog # 15-1170
Please note RS is now way overpriced on them, they are about $10 on eBay or if you google them from anywhere else.
They are imported from one manufacture,
so just note the picture of the aluminum barrel and purchase accordingly.
The "Injector" will differ a lot, but the barrel is from one manufacturer.
The "Injector" has only one DC-Blocking ceramic bypass capacitor in it by the way...

You can get two 1" long male-to-male- couplers to attach both the preamp then the injector right to the back of your CECB and plug almost anything into it for an antenna if your resonably close to your cities antenna farm.

Don't forget to check that all products are negative ground before connecting them all to each other.
If one is positive ground you'll just make smoke...
post #74 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

I almost hesitate to contribute to this pissing contest, but....

I am next to Houston, TX.

....CUT

A radio is more reliable and useful in an emergency. If there's no power, and both radio and television stations are out, you have a better chance of picking up AM radio from longer distances away than you do a television signal.

http://www.ready.gov/america/npm09/getakit.html
post #75 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

...If there's no power, and both radio and television stations are out, you have a better chance of picking up AM radio from longer distances away than you do a television signal.


You bring up a good point.
We never did try AM to see if our local stations were more helpful.
They do carry farther, and might carry reports of their neighboring cities plight.
Nice suggestion.

As it is not a matter of "If",
but a matter of "When" Houston gets stomped again...
Many land here before progressing northward.

I'll try that long-forgatten (AM) band of broadcast and report back.

I forgot to add that our family uses licenseless business-band (FM) radio's to communicate with each other.

That helped because almost all streets were impassible due to downed trees and lines.

We all were able to report survival and status to each other with them.

A must for up further north on the hurricane highway belt.

40-Channel CB's (AM) are an option to all also.
They are dirt cheap in yardsales and on eBay.
Put them on a slide mount and move them from car to house easily.
post #76 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

Your behavior is most puzzling and confusing. AFAIK, everyone was eligible to receive a coupon. I chose the appropriate option of having "cable in all or most rooms" (whatever it was) and I had no problem getting the coupons.

As did I - I put down when I requested Both coupons (one at a time) that yes I had satellite as well and yes I got my coupons and I used them.
post #77 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

I am next to Houston, TX.

During the three weeks without electricity we experienced here from IKE,
not one friggin radio station had ANY information about ANYTHING.

I'm rather shocked to hear that. I'm in Baton Rouge and after Katrina and Rita probably about at least 100,000 were taken in by Houston. I was impressed by the mayor and Gov, and how well they took control of things. A stark contrast to New Orleans. The radio stations here were awesome, so I would have thought Houston would have been even better than that.


Quote:


I have a huge battery bank and effecient inverters with a generator to charge them every four days.
So perhaps I don't coun't as a good power outage example.

After being without power for about two weeks after those two hurricanes, I got a whole house generator. Expensive, but it's the best $5000 ever spent. Gustav caused a TEN DAY power outage, and that generator ran everything perfectly for the entire time.


Quote:


Those little round inline preamps (~10-Db Gain) from RS are negative ground and handle 12-Volts nicely.
Their gain is meager and shouldn't overload your CECB if your rural like us.

Radio Shack Catalog # 15-1170
Please note RS is now way overpriced on them, they are about $10 on eBay or if you google them from anywhere else.
They are imported from one manufacture,
so just note the picture of the aluminum barrel and purchase accordingly.
The "Injector" will differ a lot, but the barrel is from one manufacturer.
The "Injector" has only one DC-Blocking ceramic bypass capacitor in it by the way...

You can get two 1" long male-to-male- couplers to attach both the preamp then the injector right to the back of your CECB and plug almost anything into it for an antenna if your resonably close to your cities antenna farm.

Don't forget to check that all products are negative ground before connecting them all to each other.
If one is positive ground you'll just make smoke.

How about these?
http://mcmelectronics.com/product/DI...33-917-/33-917
http://mcmelectronics.com/product/33...=prodCrossSell
http://mcmelectronics.com/product/DI...LA-10-/33-2690
post #78 of 169

Sorry for the slow response, It's the weekend and we have people over.
Here is the five minute quicky response.

Those are a good set of examples to go by.
And it brings up a point I failed to voice.
Some coax feeds already have a voltage carrier on them along with the intended RF.
Like satellite feeds and such.
So there are two types of "Bullets"
The one that does pass the voltage through can use a simple DC-Block Adapter to still use DC-Passive devices.
It screws into the end intended for the antenna.
It stops the 75-Ohm to 300-Ohm balun at the antenna from shorting out the supply.

Here is what your three (Sample) links pan out as...
Sadly there aren't very clear on the MCM site about what is included.

1st Link - Preamp ONLY - MCM 33-917 Generic preamp
Note: Confirm 33-917 when ordering, 33-910 PASSES DC through unit!
ONLY USE 33-910 with a DC-Block Adapter!

2nd Link - Supply ONLY - Generic power injector
Negative ground, can be used directly from 12-V battery with all preamps
Same as : Pico Macom PS10/PS1503, Winegard PSWGPI, Antennacraft PS10/DV-12225S, Etc., Etc.

Many injectors look different, but they all work in the same way.
They block the DC with a capacitor, and decouple RF from the DC feed.
The better ones use coaxial wire for the supply line also,
to reduce interference leaking in and/or out of the supply's feed.
The wall-wart has an F-Connector on it to match of course...

However, it is a waste paying for the wall-wart too if not needed...

The Channel Master 8001IFD is JUST the injector sporting bare wire for DC in.

Or if you dont want to cut and splice wires to switch from wall-wart to battery during an outage,
use the Antennacraft/Tandy-Electronics setup to switch between B+ sources easily.

Getting the first two below provides a complete 115-VAC/12-VDC kit.

Antennacraft - 810336300 preamplifier & 500UNIVAC4C 115-VAC cord set.
Has both the "Bullet" and an injector with wall-wart.

Antennacraft - RC12DC 12-VDC cord only
Made for Winegard CECB's, but fits this injector too.

Antennacraft - 810336300 Power injector only.
If you have an appropriate wall-wart laying around already...

Antennacraft - 500UNIVAC4C 115-VAC cord only.
If your class-2 wall-wart bites the dust...

3rd Link - Preamp ONLY
Tru-Spec (Pico Macom) LA10 (Line Amplifier 10-Db, uses Pico Macom PS10 Supply normally)
PDF specification Sheet
Note: This unit PASSES 500-Milliamp of DC through unit.
DO NOT USE without a DC-Block Adapter!

That PDF specification file is typical of all and worth a read.



Well thats all I can do in several minutes,
it should give people enough data to continue researching their choices.

And in response to Houston's FM radio stations during IKE,
I'm surprised it isn't federal law to cover emergency disaster plans...
post #79 of 169
Please keep on topic.
post #80 of 169
On the topic of better CECB's...

could I get some feedback from people with CECB units that have external (Wall-wart/power-brick) supplies that are 9-VDC or less?

I constrained my question to 9-VDC and below so a regulator can be used eliminating risk of CECB damage from alternator spikes, charger surge, etc...

And if your handy with a meter, could you confirm the suggested unit is actually negative ground too please?

Thank you in advance for any (Useful) feedback

And if anyone with a Zenith DTT-900 with the Sanyo tuner wants to trade for a coupon, I'll pay your purchase difference and shipping to me.
(I have an experiment for a friend in another state I want to do...)


EDIT:
Sorry Ken, I was already typing this and posted it before I saw that....
post #81 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

Sadly there aren't very clear on the MCM site about what is included.

Yeah MCM has a bad history of no product info. So of all those options, which would work best to boost a typical indoor antenna on a converter box so that it could receive all the stations? Thanks for all the info.
post #82 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Please keep on topic.

Since we're talking about ways to get better reception on CECB's, why is that OT? That is what the thread is about "....and why can't the coupon buy a better DTV tuner?"
post #83 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

On the topic of better CECB's...

could I get some feedback from people with CECB units that have external (Wall-wart/power-brick) supplies that are 9-VDC or less?

I constrained my question to 9-VDC and below so a regulator can be used eliminating risk of CECB damage from alternator spikes, charger surge, etc...

And if your handy with a meter, could you confirm the suggested unit is actually negative ground too please?

I have a Winegard RCDT09A that uses the external 9v adapter, would that tell you anything? It's a negative ground, it can use a regular 9v battery pack.
post #84 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

Since we're talking about ways to get better reception on CECB's, why is that OT? That is what the thread is about "....and why can't the coupon buy a better DTV tuner?"

OT is extended discussion of radio, federal emergency response and communications, etc.
post #85 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

...So of all those options, which would work best to boost a typical indoor antenna on a converter box so that it could receive all the stations?

Yeah, Ken's right...I did sail off into the sunset in the wrong direction on a topic that really bugs me...

In the interest of closing the "Bullet" topic so as to get back OT (Acronym = "On Topic" for new-commer's).

there is no correct answer without knowing many other factors about your situation Clint.

I am feeling like I should suggest a purchase of an indoor amplified antenna that has been made with the preamp carefully designed to match the antenna it works with,
rather than cobblin' together a bunch of parts which I would shamelessly do as a technician.

I somewhat converged two topics with that bullet post as a second stream of thought was also about running this stuff on batteries during power outages. The bullets work just fine for that.

The 12-V answer for non-technician's is stick with the pre-fab Antennacraft kit with Wall-Wart & Injector,
and add the Cigarette Lighter Adapter for outages.

In-Line Amplifier Bullets are everywhere,
but the DC-Block must be considered.

That is the last I will post on this topic, as I don't want to get in trouble..



Back to the "better Box" topic...

I just hung up with Channel Master.

They will produce the CM-7000's for a few more months still.
The scarcity of them is only due to high demand they said.

They are available directly here
ChannelMasterStore.com
$69.99 with FREE S&H

They also sell the Remote Control separately,
in case you break/loose yours somehow.
It is $19.99,
also with FREE S&H
post #86 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

That is the last I will post on this topic, as I don't want to get in trouble..

I think we have a DC use CECB topic, somewhere, that could use your info.
post #87 of 169

"non-passive amplifier," sounds like an oxymoron - LOL. Is nice though to be able to run DC up the coax to an amp right after the antenna (minimizes system noise figure - ex: masthead amp).

Speaking of amps, my bud tells me his boss wants to clear out a bunch of Terks from their electronic distribution warehouse; I may have to check out a package deal rather than just buying one or two...
post #88 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

On the topic of better CECB's...

could I get some feedback from people with CECB units that have external (Wall-wart/power-brick) supplies that are 9-VDC or less?

I constrained my question to 9-VDC and below so a regulator can be used eliminating risk of CECB damage from alternator spikes, charger surge, etc...

And if your handy with a meter, could you confirm the suggested unit is actually negative ground too please?

Thank you in advance for any (Useful) feedback

And if anyone with a Zenith DTT-900 with the Sanyo tuner wants to trade for a coupon, I'll pay your purchase difference and shipping to me.
(I have an experiment for a friend in another state I want to do...)


EDIT:
Sorry Ken, I was already typing this and posted it before I saw that....

My Zinwell S/N tag states DC 5V, 1.5A. Center conductor is hot.
post #89 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

OT is extended discussion of radio, federal emergency response and communications, etc.

Oh, I gotcha.
post #90 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

there is no correct answer without knowing many other factors about your situation Clint.

I'm unsure of what other factors......all of the stations' antennae around here are to the SW in the same area. They are all 15 miles or less away.


Quote:


I am feeling like I should suggest a purchase of an indoor amplified antenna that has been made with the preamp carefully designed to match the antenna it works with, rather than cobblin' together a bunch of parts which I would shamelessly do as a technician.

Which indoor antenna is generally considered to be the best deal? (Or is that on another thread ). I have a CM-7000 and the Winegard. They will only be used when cable goes off the air. Thanks for all the info.
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