Lexicon BD-30 BD Player [based on OPPO BDP-83] tech talk only - Page 5  

It looks like the guys at Audioholics got a Lexicon unit for a review and have taken the case apart. The review isn't finished yet, but Tom Andry in his avrant podcast has said that it looks like it's just an Oppo with the back panel, front panel and top swapped. The only technical difference they noticed was that some of the capacitors were a different color, but not different values or ratings. The transport looks the same.

Lexicon has put a blue filter in front of the normal Oppo's LED display to make it blue.... that's definitely worth $3000.

Looks like the naysayers were correct on this one.
I've also noticed that the Spec page on Lexicon's website for the BD-30 does not list THX certification. http://www.lexicon.com/products/specs.asp?ID=27

So Lexicon is just providing a nicer case for almost $3000.

One comparison picture is located on the podcast page:
http://www.avrant.com/?p=1169

(About 7 mins from the end of the audio podcast is where Tom starts talking about the comparison.)

our review with measurements of this player will be posted today. We are still waiting on feedback from Lexicon and THX to integrate into the review. Our results are astounding and it will make you question whether or NOT THX is actually testing the players that they allegedly certify. Stay tuned...

More comments about this in March Stereophile.

Hahaha, and the money spenders emerge from the woodwork. I wonder if you'd be able to see/hear the dfifference, in a blind test, between a $3000 player and a $300 one? (upconversion capability of regular DVD's aside)

Likely not. But there is always a place for build quality and better features. I wouldn't buy the Lex but I appreciate that the High end still has life.

The analysis of the Lexicon BD-30 has been posted at Audioholics:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/t...ray-oppo-clone

It includes testing with an Audio Precision APx585. We also included comments from THX, and additional comments from Lexicon will be posted once they submit a formal statement. It's enlightening to say the least, and everyone involved has been very courteous for which we are grateful.

From your Lexicon review:

Lexicon doesn't currently ship a processor that decodes Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD formats. Thus a consumer purchasing an entire THX certified Lexicon rig is forced to use the BD-30's analog outputs to decode these high definition audio formats in their native form. Since the BD-30 doesn't meet the critical 80Hz crossover point and slopes mandated by THX, the consumer is essentially not achieving that THX experience in their homes that they are paying for. In our opinion, this should be cause for concern.

Are you guys doing your homework?. The current MC-12B HD allows for up to 7.1 LPCM via HDMI from any BD player. Does it decode a bitstream signal? no. But the Lex BD player will decode it to LPCM (like the Oppo BDP-83) and send it to the MC-12B HD for post processing. No analog outputs needed to get full HDMI lossless. Moreover, you can use Lexicon's internal crossovers to achieve the ideal THX 80 Hz slope. What am I missing here with you guys?

LPCM is NOT in its native format like our article states for SACD, DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD, etc. Most people desire to pass the bitsream to their processor and have it do the decoding. Also if I am not mistaken the Lexicon processor will downconvert 192kHz signals to 96kHz sampling rates. This is just a minor point and not the focus of the article obviously.

I think you are picking nits. There are few or zero 192 kHz BD discs. Moreover, I find it hard to believe you'll get a superior result using lpcm vs bitstream.

That all depends on the quality of the decoder. So by your logic, one could let the BD player do all of the decoding and simply let your $15k processor do nothing but level trim and bass management and D/A conversion. Personally in my experience, the processor usually does a better job decoding formats than a DVD or BD player.

I am working with Audio Precision on a way to accurately test the differences of audio decoders which should shed some light on the differences that can often be heard by people. Its possible there may be no real differences and it could all be placebo. Inquiring minds want to know.

As for 192kHz BD discs, I have a few and hey if we are pursuing the very best in audio reproduction, why would you defend limiting the experience, especially when spending this kind of cash on the very best equipment?

edit. grammar and added comment about placebo

Let's not forget all post processing and the critical D/A conversion is done in the $15K SSP when employing LPCM. Including all THX decorrelation, filtering, etc. All done in the SSP. Decoders in the Oppo and others are excellent and are potentially more critical for video deciding. All that is being done is unpacking the packed audio when the player converts to LPCM. It's Bit for bit identical to bitstreaming. The SSP is still the critical piece in this LPCM scenario. Even the $26K Meridian uses LPCM for HDMI audio input.

I guess my beef with your write up is that you should have mentioned that LPCM is an excellent option for Lex owners and would still give a THX audio experience as all THX post processing is still done in the THX certified processor. I see no THX requirements for or any possible improvement when one bitstreams vs uses LPCM. To say that one is simply not getting the THX experience by bitstreaming but omitting that one could essentially get it via LPCM is an omission that, to me, made the whole review misleading. You failed to mention that the Lex BD-30 can decode all lossless codecs and send them bit for bit to the THX certified MC-12 HD.

Like 'gotcha' journalism with the mention of Lex changing their website. It seems like the facts were purposely conflated (RE: THX standards) as you only discussed the video demands required by THX and then solely discussed that the audio doesn't meet THX spec. The video spec is one thing. Perhaps they are waiting on THX for results to see if the player meets that spec.

That said, I think you are wrong here on the audio part. As far as I know THX has no player related / decoding requirements for audio that would make LPCM / decoding in the player a non-starter for THX. In fact, I believe the Meridian 800 series is all THX certified and it is all LPCM. IN fact, the new HD-621 HDMI audio converter is new to the mix but THX cert isn't even mentioned. I do not think THX requires bitstreaming.

If I want drama, I'll go to TMZ.com. But for A/V I simply want the facts and 'real world' details. You know as well as I do that the 'THX experience' would be no different if the player could bitstream the lossless codecs a Lexicon SSP that could accept LPCM.

My bet is Lexicon will inform you that THX certification is still pending...

if thx certification is still pending then why post the logo on the player and indicate that it is "THX certified" as they did in cedia at atlanta last year.

in the end I dont really give a rats about the THX certification. we all know that when logitech computer speakers start getting thx logo's on them you might as well start handing them out on the back of cereal boxes !

the real point of this review I think is the skull duggery lexicon has very obviously engaged in by shoe horning an $500 in-expensive player in a casing of there's and pricing it at $3000 ! now sure they are entitled to that sort of thing. but good on audioholics to challenge their social conscience in putting their brand name to this kind of thing.

good on you guys. atleast give some pause for thought for those who seem more interested on the name on the box than whats in side it !

thebland arent you a lexicon owner, doesnt mean you have to stand by at their defense. sure you are right re pcm. but its thx certification thats being talked about. How can it be thx certified if it cant even engage thx required xovers ?? now am sure they'll weasle out of it saying its video vertification and not audio. In that case I see their "thx certified" and thx logo to be extremely deceiving, not something youd expect fo a company of the stature of lexicon and thats without considering their actions repackaging an inexpensive machine to resell with their brand name at a ridiculously high price point.

[quote=alebonau;17933644] if thx certification is still pending then why post the logo on the player and indicate that it is "THX certified" as they did in cedia at atlanta last year.[quote]

I am speculating. But I at least they removed the THX cert before it was sold. They tried for a cert... Something happened. No harm, no foul.


Ditto. THX has outlived its usefulness.


Most of us here already knew this... We are the ones in the know!!


I am not an owner. I did have a Lexicon piece years ago but sold it as I found better. sure you are right re pcm.


If used with the THX certified MC-12 HD, it can engage the THX crossovers (in the SSP). Like every other THX processor does. THX cert for players is different than for SSPs. Why would one need THX crossovers in the player??? Only if using analog outs! And who'd bother buying the Lex to use analog outs??


I see nothing deceiving about it. They removed THX from every possible ad or web page. Perhaps they started out thinking it would be THX but something upended that and then they removed it. Better now than after you bought it.... I have no issue with it at all. I think the author is trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Fact is this Lex BD-30 via LPCM will give you THX rated audio. The authors talked all about the THX video requirements, then in the next sentence discussed how it fails THX spec because it can't decode DTS MA or TRUE HD. Actually, it can decode those (to LPCM and analog). It simply cannot bitstream them and the author was not informed on the difference in reading the article.

The author said this: However, to our knowledge, Lexicon doesn't currently ship a processor that decodes Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD formats. Thus a consumer purchasing an entire THX certified Lexicon rig is forced to use the BD-30's analog outputs to decode these high definition audio formats in their native form..

This is out and out misleading!! A LEx owner can output LPCM from the BD-30 AND GET THE THX 80 Hz X-OVER in the THX cert Lex SSP! The author simply misunderstands the topic!!! That is my point here.

[quote=thebland;17933807][quote=alebonau;17933644] if thx certification is still pending then why post the logo on the player and indicate that it is "THX certified" as they did in cedia at atlanta last year.
started out thinking it was thx ?

the thx logo is on the player is it not ? certainly appears so, on the photo on the audioholics site and on the photo of the player on lexicons website. I can see the logo. the shot from the player in atlanta cedia
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post17819546
showed it with THX certified clearly labelled wiht the plaquard on top of it and was how it was promoted. Not sure how else you can mis interpret that. Not suprised to see THX and lexicon wash their hands off the whole deal as soon as they could !

you'll have no argument from me re the pcm capability, but it is the analog side that is the issue given it cant do the thx required xovers.

THX on a pre-production unit. Not stylish, but no harm!!

I'm sure their marketing department got a little crazy and someone is eating crow over at Lexicon! Way better than Pioneer promising DTS MA shortly after release of the 05/51 and then thousands waiting almost a year for it. Now that was a lot of bitching!!!

Hmm, I'm a litle disappointed that the Audioholics didn't draw an explicit comparison between the Lexicon's $3000 faceplate upgrade and the Oppo BDP-83 Special Edition's analog audio board upgrade for an order of magnitude less money.

I just got my Oppo Blu-ray player back after sending it in for a Special Edition upgrade in early January. For $300, it was a great way to make an excellent Blu-ray and universal audio disc player that much better. Add in Oppo's recent support for network audio streaming and the (free!) Asset uPnP DLNA audio server from the folks who make dbpoweramp and you're really in business.

Frankly, I have to wonder how well the Oppo BDP-83SE holds up when compared to the Slingbox, Slingbox Transporter, and even Linn DS media streaming DACs. That could make for a good showdown.

In the meantime, $3000 would buy an aweful lot of Blu-ray discs, SACDs and DVD-As to enjoy on the Oppo Blu-ray player.

Fair enough, hence I added the following statement on the THX response page:

Alternatively, a fellow Lexicon owner on AVS Forum pointed out that the end user can in fact have the BD-30 player do the decoding and pass the multi channel PCM data out of the HDMI output where the processor can do the bass management and D/A conversion. Assuming THX still tests the bass management circuitry of A/V processors and receivers that they certify, this can be a viable option to consider, though perhaps not as seamless as the actual A/V processor doing the decoding. To our knowledge, no Lexicon processor supports 192 kHz / 24 bit audio so for those instances, the user may still wish to consider using the analog connections to achieve the highest possible resolution.

Note: It may take a day to show up as our site runs on multiple servers and has to cache out before updating edits we make on pages after they are published.


I've been in constant contact with THX since we wrote this article and they told me via email that they "stand behind the certification of the BD-30 player". In their eyes, its a fully THX certified player. Apparently they don't test the analog outputs of BD players.

What concerns me is the apparent case of just wrapping an existing product in a new shell and then making statements about improvements and modifications made to that product which do not appear to be true and then charging a very high price. This seems to be on the borderline of fraud to me. It certainly will damage the reputation of Lexicon and its parent company.

Well, that's not correct either. If you send LPCM to an A/V processor, it must decode the LPCM and convert it to analog (that's why it's called a "processor"). The player is not decoding, it is transcoding.

I don't understand why you claim this somehow less seamless. The player is sending a digital signal - it's LPCM instead of PPCM/bitstream, which doesn't matter at all - bits is bits. The A/V processor is doing the decoding, and applying bass management and digital delay. How is this "not as seamless?"

Racer you are correct about the transcoding. Honestly this is a moot point compared to the point of the article.

I am not 100% convinced that there won't be some loss in the process of transcoding in the player. In the past we heard audible degradation of PCM data sent out HDMI on certain DVD players. This isn't exactly the same issue but you get the point.

Until I can verify with measurements that all BD players can perfectly transcode to PCM data, we can't simply ignore the potential losses.

By less seamless, I meant since the processor doesn't handle 192kHz via the HDMI inputs. The ideal solution in my mind is a single cable connection between the BD player and processor that enables the processor to do all of the audio decoding of all formats at all sampling rates and bit depths. I am certain Lexicon will eventually offer a processor that does this since most of their competitors have already. In addition, some processors that take in LPCM data don't allow the user to enable room correction and other post processing options. Not sure if its the case with the Lexicon but its worth noting.

Nice, Gene. That said, and ironically, I'm not a Lexicon SSP / BD player owner but an Oppo owner. I think that clarification makes for a more informational expose. LPCM still has it's place.

This isn't intended to be an "I told you so post" as I actually wish that those of us who had doubted that Lexicon would add anything of value to the guts of the player had been wrong. For the $3000 premium, we should have been wrong. Lexicon should have done SOMETHING to improve on the base design. The SE and NE editions along with the other mods that are out there show that there IS room for improvement. Shame on Lexicon.

That said, something I didn't see addressed in the Audioholics review or in this thread is what firmware the player is using and how firmware updates will be handled. Does the Oppo firmware work on this player? If not, is Lexicon writing their own firmware or making minor cosmetic mods to the standard Oppo firmware? I think this is an important consideration as it has an impact on what features are available and how long it takes to get updates for new movies that won't play, etc. Being able to use the standard Oppo firmware would obviously minimize any delays in Lexicon getting their updates out. I'm just curious about this as I certainly have no interest paying the premium for this player - I don't even have any Lexicon equipment these days to match the pretty faceplate.

that doesn't concern me at all. Caveat emptor, you know...

We forgot to mention that the Oppo firmware updates don't seem to interface with the Lexicon so we aren't sure how the end user updates their player. Lexicon didn't provide us many details after we sent them our comparison measurements unfortunately.

Since I don't own either of the components you wrote about, I cannot say for sure. I can say for sure that I have experimented with the gear that I own, and there is absolutely no audible difference between the processor decoding bitstreamed TrueHD/DTSMA or the processor decoding LPCM that has been transcoded by my player.


Yes, but until then you should caveat that you don't actually know if there are any "potential losses."


That is indeed an ideal, but it is one that seems to be elusive. There are myriad components and combinations that have exception/caveat lists a mile long. Processor X doesn't fully support this, Player Y doesn't fully support that, plug this player into that processor and Z doesn't work, and on and on. By the time full support of everything becomes ubiquitous, technology will have moved on and we'll have a fresh set of incompatibilities to deal with.

In the meantime, it does appear that you are, as The Bland said, "picking nits." The target market for the Lexicon player and processor is, from what I've read here, clueless rubes with endless supplies of money who are buying fully-integrated systems from custom installers. The rebadged-Oppo/Lexicon player and Lexicon processor combination will give those customers high resolution audio regardless of whether the source material is PCM, TrueHD, or DTSMA, and the installer will be able to set up BM, digital delay, room correction, and other post-processing like Logic7. I would expect that a competent installer would set it up to be totally seamless, so that the clueless user would have to do nothing more than put a disc in and push play.

How's the feature set in the current Lexicon firmware version compare to the Oppo (DLNA support, for example)?

An audiophile boutique selling overpriced stuff? Ask Audioquest, Wilson Audio, etc - that is IMPOSSIBLE!!
I am sure the chassis makes the video so much clearer! A step above Oppo - don't read all the measurements from audioholics.com. That is besides the point.

Geez people, get off of Genes back.

1) Lets ignore the fact that this is a $3500 player . Not in my price range at all. Some people like to spend that kind of money. Cool. The issue here is that the player is simply a re-packaged $500 Oppo. Actually, thats not even entirely accurate. Lexicon didn't even bother to repackage it, they just stuck it inside .

2) Lexicon did a cheap ass job at the re-packaging.

3) We've long known that THX is nothing but a scam. If Denon (who also likes to overprice stuff to a much lesser extent) doesn't produce any THX equipment, that should be a clue.

4) Why would you pay ANYTHING for a certification that has no explanation as to what it is certifying? THX has never released a single document or spec for the tests.

This player is completely useless. THX is completely useless. I don't own any Lexicon equipment, but I am insulted at what they tried to pull off here.

Hopefully this scandal puts them out of business once and for all.