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The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread. - Page 11

post #301 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

I was going to suggest Refresh rate multitool, but since its a pc app, it won't be much use. And without HDMI, its a complete non-starter.

I may have a adapter from VGA or dvi to hdmi I think. My Mac can do hdmi out, I'll have to see if i can find a timer for that or borrow a laptop.
post #302 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by addict gamer View Post

I may have a adapter from VGA or dvi to hdmi I think. My Mac can do hdmi out, I'll have to see if i can find a timer for that or borrow a laptop.

http://www.online-stopwatch.com/full-screen-stopwatch/

you guys think this would be good enough to measure the difference?
post #303 of 785
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by addict gamer View Post

Has anyone compared the Panasonic st30 to the gt30 in regards to input lag. I searched here and a few other sites. Couldn't find it here but on a few other web sites they were saying that the st30 was 16ms and that the gt30 was double that. Is there any truth to that?

Ive been offered the upgrade to the gt30 but if it means higher input lag I think I'll pass

As you've probably noticed, the results of this test method are very often seen to vary by 1 frame (or ~16ms) on the same TV using the same materials (see Poohcontinuum's and Chud's ST and GT results). Why I have no idea. Perhaps this means the absolute lag value is somewhere in between (say 24ms) or perhaps the cloning implementations are introducing it, I don't know. I mention all that to say you really have to be careful about taking any one number as published scientific fact. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet the ST and GT are either exactly the same, or within a few ms of each other.
post #304 of 785
It´s very easy to get wrong numbers and the input lag is also not entirely consistant.

You have to use a splitter on the same output of your video card or it may display the image on one slightly ahead of the others. I measured my D7005 on my GTX 580 and I suspect the input lag on the HDMI is wrong for this reason. It´s slower then VGA but not by almost 30 ms as it appeared. I did measurethe input lag on my PS51D7005 to about 30 ms comparing to my XL2410T which is about as fast as my previous CRT. I would only trust CRT measurements fully though
post #305 of 785
I would really appreciate if someone could tell me the input lag difference on a Samsung PN-50C8000. I already know that game mode on makes a night and day difference when compared to regular movie mode. The question I have is what the input lag is when you set the HDMI 1 port to "PC". It switches your tv into PC Mode and for me produces a much more pleasing picture.

The reason I really like PC Mode is that it allows me to keep "Move Mode" active while playing games, and reducing input lag.

I'm just trying to see if input lag is worse in PC Mode than when in regular Game Mode, if that makes any sense.
post #306 of 785
Sorry.
post #307 of 785
This thread dead?

Cause it was a good one.
post #308 of 785
Maybe with newer TVs input lag has become more of a non-issue.
post #309 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by overwilhelmed View Post

Maybe with newer TVs input lag has become more of a non-issue.

Maybe... but maybe not.
post #310 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by overwilhelmed View Post

Maybe with newer TVs input lag has become more of a non-issue.

Nope. If anything a lot of tvs are getting worse because of extra processing due to all the apps they are coming with.

My cousin has the Sony google tv and video games are almost unplayable on it.

From my personal experience, Panasonic plasmas have been the best overall for a long time.
post #311 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syed117 View Post

Nope. If anything a lot of tvs are getting worse because of extra processing due to all the apps they are coming with.

My cousin has the Sony google tv and video games are almost unplayable on it.

From my personal experience, Panasonic plasmas have been the best overall for a long time.

Makes sense. Note to self: no Sony Google TVs. I'm playing on a GT30 and have no complaints.
post #312 of 785
Attached lag tests on my dad's PN59D550 done on HP Pavilion g4-1117dx notebook. Aero turn off, connected to HDMI input 1, set input label to PC.
LL
LL
LL
post #313 of 785
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by badmeng View Post

Attached lag tests on my dad's PN59D550 done on HP Pavilion g4-1117dx notebook. Aero turn off, connected to HDMI input 1, set input label to PC.

Thanks badmeng, adding your result to the OP. If anyone sees measurements posted for any 2012 models please post them.
post #314 of 785
Has anyone tested the Insignia 42" Plasma NS-42P650A11?
post #315 of 785
Hello there.

first thanks for this post and the tool on first page. I own an LG PZ550 and my input lag (on HDMI3) is 100-120 ms. I'm looking for someone having this TV and willing to test the other two HDMI 1 & 2 inputs. Someone at the Support told me that some models or series have 2 controller cards so, HDMI inputs can be on different card, and so, input lag may be less on HDMI 1 than 3. I cannot test this easily (my 60" TV is wall mounted) so, if anyone here can test this before I remove my TV from the wall... will be very king of him !

Thanks,
G.
post #316 of 785
Anyone tested the PN51E8000 Samsung yet? Input lag on my C8000 was absolutely horrible in movie mode...had to constantly leave it in game mode. New tv is coming soon and it would be great to hear some good news.
post #317 of 785
Bumping this thread up again. Input lag on a Panasonic ST50 feels non existent. It may be a bit higher in custom mode, but they both feel much better to me than the Samsung E8000 in game mode. I would really like to see actual results of both.
post #318 of 785
AVForums.com actually did lag tests on all the 2012 Panasonic plasmas, using a new testing device that is supposed to “provide accurate measurement with better than 1 millisecond accuracy”, they all seem to average around 45ms. One of their reviewers also did some tests on a 2011 and 2010 model for comparison and measured just under 31ms for both TVs (which would be in line with most of the results here). Seems like Panasonic might not be the first choice for gamers anymore.
post #319 of 785
So, i plan on picking up the Panasonic 50" - 55" UT 1080p 3D Plasma just before the Wii U hits during Nov, but for now i need to replace my current 42" LG Plasma(which has horrible input lag when gaming and mediocre black levels for movies) with a cheap set for my Wii.
16ms/input lag is ideal, which leads me to the Panasonic X5 720p 42" plasma....

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/panasonic-panasonic-viera-42-720p-600hz-plasma-hdtv-tcp42x5-tcp42x5/10198952.aspx?path=a4f887eee0823f51ee36431f07ba3d8den02

Apperantly HDTVUK.com raved about last years 'X3' saying it only boasted only 16ms! which is the best it can get for gaming on an HDTV period. this is most likely because
the lower end sets don't have all of that shnazzy extra processing going on. Just wondering if this years X5 is 16ms as well?
post #320 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathrattlehead View Post

Bumping this thread up again. Input lag on a Panasonic ST50 feels non existent. It may be a bit higher in custom mode, but they both feel much better to me than the Samsung E8000 in game mode. I would really like to see actual results of both.

Me too, I would like to see a comparison of game mode to custom mode with processing turned off in the ST50, as custom is my preferred mode to play in (ironically because you can turn more processing off in the pro settings). A greater irony would be if custom actually had more lag while it clearly has less processing artifacts then in game mode (the artifacts I refer to are those caused by black extension mostly and to a lesser degree contour emphasis and AGC, all of which seem to be turned way up in game mode). It's extremely frustrating that Panasonic won't allow you to change these settings (have access to Pro Settings) in game mode since I can't conceive how having them on would reduce input lag, but it wouldn't matter if there's no difference between custom and game in terms of input lag.

I'll try to run the tests myself but I currently don't have the necessary hardware to do it. If someone could compare custom to game in 480p, 720p, 1080p that would be super awesome (just make sure processing is off in custom!) Comparing custom to game wouldn't require a CRT since the difference would be accurate as long as the only change you make is from game to custom mode with no processing.
post #321 of 785
Thread Starter 
So do the ST/GT/VT50's now require Game Mode for optimal lag results?
post #322 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

So do the ST/GT/VT50's now require Game Mode for optimal lag results?
I'm not sure (hence why I'd like to compare the 2 modes smile.gif). What I did notice is that compared to the other picture modes, when you switch to game mode, the panel's flash to black is longer then the other modes (if that makes any sense). This might indicate the tv is entering a lower lag state or it might mean the OSD is just making sure motion smoother is off (as this year you can't choose motion smoother in game mode like you could in the ST30 (not that you'd want to do that)), or it could mean something else entirely, or nothing. I'd sure like to find out though!
post #323 of 785
From avforums ST50 review:
Quote:
As with the P42GT50, gaming lag was actually higher than expected when measured with our new LagTest device and came in at 47.9 milliseconds in Game mode. Other modes were quite a bit higher so the competitive gamer might just find themselves compromised by the ST50’s latency. It was good enough for most of our single player exploits but noticeably less responsive than a 2010 Panasonic we have here and some adjustment was needed.
post #324 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by AABBCCAA View Post

From avforums ST50 review:
Quote:
As with the P42GT50, gaming lag was actually higher than expected when measured with our new LagTest device and came in at 47.9 milliseconds in Game mode. Other modes were quite a bit higher so the competitive gamer might just find themselves compromised by the ST50’s latency. It was good enough for most of our single player exploits but noticeably less responsive than a 2010 Panasonic we have here and some adjustment was needed.

Yeah, I already read that, and I don't think it's too helpful. First, I'm highly skeptical of this new LagTest devices accuracy. The "old" lag test has a simple logical beauty to it that's pretty easy to understand. I don't know what the new test is doing to determine lag and since it's giving different results compared to the old test on everything, I'm more inclined to trust the old test. Giving a longer lag times doesn't automatically mean its more accurate.

Second, all the other modes on the ST50 default to motion smoother on, so unless the reviewers turned it off, the lag numbers in other modes are obviously going to be higher. Third, it's possible that lag might be higher at different resolutions (480p, 720p, 1080p) do to processing needed to upscale the image. I wish reviewers would test all 3 modes, since it could potentially be a real issue.
post #325 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossip View Post

Yeah, I already read that, and I don't think it's too helpful. First, I'm highly skeptical of this new LagTest devices accuracy. The "old" lag test has a simple logical beauty to it that's pretty easy to understand. I don't know what the new test is doing to determine lag and since it's giving different results compared to the old test on everything, I'm more inclined to trust the old test. Giving a longer lag times doesn't automatically mean its more accurate.
Second, all the other modes on the ST50 default to motion smoother on, so unless the reviewers turned it off, the lag numbers in other modes are obviously going to be higher. Third, it's possible that lag might be higher at different resolutions (480p, 720p, 1080p) do to processing needed to upscale the image. I wish reviewers would test all 3 modes, since it could potentially be a real issue.

So you dismiss the new results because you don’t understand how the testing device works?
They actually explain how it works in the WT50 review, in short:
Quote:
The device works by producing a standard 1080p60 DVI/HDMI signal with alternating black/white segments and measures the delay between the first line of the frame with white segment leaving HDMI transmitter and the photosensor detecting a change in screen light output.

A cloned display running a flash based timer is anything but beautiful, its actually a terrible way to do lag testing. This device should also eliminate the 16ms variance you get when comparing a plasma to a CRT or LCD screen, so naturally the results will be higher then what we have seen previously. As I’ve said before, they also did tests on some older panasonic plasmas and measured the same 30~ms most people here got as there highest result. That still makes the 2012 pana screens 16ms slower, even if you want to ignore the base value, and that’s not a good result for hardcore gamers.
post #326 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by AABBCCAA View Post

So you dismiss the new results because you don’t understand how the testing device works?
They actually explain how it works in the WT50 review, in short:
Quote:
The device works by producing a standard 1080p60 DVI/HDMI signal with alternating black/white segments and measures the delay between the first line of the frame with white segment leaving HDMI transmitter and the photosensor detecting a change in screen light output.
A cloned display running a flash based timer is anything but beautiful, its actually a terrible way to do lag testing. This device should also eliminate the 16ms variance you get when comparing a plasma to a CRT or LCD screen, so naturally the results will be higher then what we have seen previously. As I’ve said before, they also did tests on some older panasonic plasmas and measured the same 30~ms most people here got as there highest result. That still makes the 2012 pana screens 16ms slower, even if you want to ignore the base value, and that’s not a good result for hardcore gamers.

Whatever, I'm still skeptical of it and i'm not the only one. I'm entitled to my own opinion. I'd still like to see results with the old test. Testing Game vs Custom the old way would remain accurate even if the old way has unmeasured lag, since you're just finding the difference between 2 modes.
post #327 of 785
Thread Starter 
What I'd personally like to know is what makes the ST50 show 16ms on a timer but 47ms on the lag device. That's a very sizable gap. Obviously we know the S2 and ST30 also showed a number of 16ms results on a timer, but apparently only 30ms on the lag device. I'm wondering if perhaps the sites somehow botched their ST50 readings (e.g. only took one shot), swapped GPU brands, or if video drivers have gotten worse in the past year or two. Is it also possible that a change in the way the panels draw their image could result in different values against the photoeye? Has anyone found an exhaustive multi-shot timer test (e.g. thepoohcontinium's ST30 in the OP) on a 2012 model?
Edited by Orta - 6/20/12 at 12:37pm
post #328 of 785
There are just to many variables in their old testing method :

-The Flash based timer does not update fast enough to give accurate results.
-Vsync on one screen makes it slower then the other one.
-Vsync on both screens limits the refresh rate to 60, creating a difference of one frame (16,6ms) if both screens are even slightly out of sync.
-Difference between plasma and CRT refresh type creates ~16ms variance.
-Camera used (shutter speed etc.)
-possible delay between GPU outputs.

This new device at least attempts to remove these variables. If it is accurate the 2012 Panasonic plasmas should measure roughly between 30-46ms when tested with SMTT against a CRT or very fast LCD.
post #329 of 785
i just got a Samsung 51" Plasma E531 2012 model http://www.samsung.com/au/tv/plasma-range/e-531.html
and i will post results of flatpanelok test when i get a hdmi cable

Edit: my guess is about 25ms, also i have configuration settings for game mode that passes lagom lcd tests if anyone wants them, its pretty much just 44 brightness 88 contrast and some other tweaks.
Edited by Stoogie - 6/22/12 at 10:06am
post #330 of 785
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoogie View Post

i just got a Samsung 51" Plasma E531 2012 model http://www.samsung.com/au/tv/plasma-range/e-531.html
and i will post results of flatpanelok test when i get a hdmi cable
Edit: my guess is about 25ms, also i have configuration settings for game mode that passes lagom lcd tests if anyone wants them, its pretty much just 44 brightness 88 contrast and some other tweaks.

Stoogie you should try plugging into the HDMI1/DVI jack and labeling it PC. It seems to change every year, but that has occasionally reduced lag more than Game Mode and/or provided better PQ than Game Mode.
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