or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread. - Page 17

post #481 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post

Seems I didn't do the appropriate research. I was under the impression that a plasma essentially had no input delay.
What the hell is the point of a plasma? These things consume more power, generate more heat, are generally heavier, have lesser picture quality vs an LCD, in addition can potentially be completely ruined by burn in or temporarily inconvenienced by IR. All this in an attempt to have deeper blacks, which LCD/LED tech is virtually there. The only major plus is the price, however all things considered it doesn't seem like much of a good deal.
With regard to PQ vs LCD, a plasma (at least my GT50) looks like trash compared to my 4 yo Samsung LN52A750. Sure, if I back away everything is smoother but that does not equal quality. As in another post, if you back far enough away from a dirty car, it can look like a freshly polished and waxed beauty.
Even with deeper blacks, these dark scenes look like crap because of this snowy effect (apparently in all plasmas). It looks like channel snow behind the actual image and is distracting.
/rant
Lesser picture quality? Plasma is still regarded as the picture quality king by most trusted reviewers. If you're seeing that much dither it's either A) Your settings or B) You're sitting too close. The motion blur on lcd make it the absolute worst choice for me as a gamer. My ST30 has low input lag with a great picture and clean motion.
post #482 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastperf View Post

Lesser picture quality? Plasma is still regarded as the picture quality king by most trusted reviewers. If you're seeing that much dither it's either A) Your settings or B) You're sitting too close. The motion blur on lcd make it the absolute worst choice for me as a gamer. My ST30 has low input lag with a great picture and clean motion.

No, no, no, he should sell that POS to me for mere pennies on the dollar.
post #483 of 785
Still need to know the input lag for the 47lm640 lg help please
post #484 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

No, no, no, he should sell that POS to me for mere pennies on the dollar.
Umm...uhh..yes,yes. What I meant to say is sell that terd for as little as possible. Just take the first offer you get. Perhaps to someone online.
post #485 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastperf View Post

Lesser picture quality? Plasma is still regarded as the picture quality king by most trusted reviewers. If you're seeing that much dither it's either A) Your settings or B) You're sitting too close. The motion blur on lcd make it the absolute worst choice for me as a gamer. My ST30 has low input lag with a great picture and clean motion.


Agreed.
And it looks like you have thee' ultimate Plasma to game on, as do I
except your ST30 has 3D and a anti glare filtre. Just a heads up and you
probably already know this, to get that super low 1 frame/16ms you are going
to have to use component cables on your Wii, Wii U, PS3 or XBOX 360. HDMI
delivers a bit more lag, but games are still playable just not quite as good
as component.

Plus you have to turn off Color management, Video Noise reduction and MOsquito
and if you're playing SD/480p content like the Wii or gamecube for example you
'have' to set the color matrix to 'HD'. SD for some odd ball reason just like with this years
panasonic 2012 plasmas ramps up the input lag by a bit.
You probably already know most of this anyways. XP

And i too can't be bothered to game on LCD/LED's anymore....Not only because
of the nasty detail smearing motion blur which gives me a complete headache but because
they emmit such a nasty dismal glow in comparison to the beautiful glow you get
from plasma's(especially when the screen is filled with blue) and of course
black levels.

I hear the IPS ALPHA panasonic panels from 09 and 10' such as the X1 720p LCD, S1 1080p LCD
and E3 1080p LCD deliver extremely low lag. the X1 via HDMI is only 6ms for ex.
they only come in 32"-37" which is the downside. Which would be easily for me considering
i'm currently rocking a 60" S30. XD Amazing set! When the room is dark
the black levels practically blend into the bezel.
post #486 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Agreed.
And it looks like you have thee' ultimate Plasma to game on, as do I
except your ST30 has 3D and a anti glare filtre. Just a heads up and you
probably already know this, to get that super low 1 frame/16ms you are going
to have to use component cables on your Wii, Wii U, PS3 or XBOX 360. HDMI
delivers a bit more lag, but games are still playable just not quite as good
as component.

Plus you have to turn off Color management, Video Noise reduction and MOsquito
and if you're playing SD/480p content like the Wii or gamecube for example you
'have' to set the color matrix to 'HD'. SD for some odd ball reason just like with this years
panasonic 2012 plasmas ramps up the input lag by a bit.
You probably already know most of this anyways. XP
And i too can't be bothered to game on LCD/LED's anymore....Not only because
of the nasty detail smearing motion blur which gives me a complete headache but because
they emmit such a nasty dismal glow in comparison to the beautiful glow you get
from plasma's(especially when the screen is filled with blue) and of course
black levels.
I hear the IPS ALPHA panasonic panels from 09 and 10' such as the X1 720p LCD, S1 1080p LCD
and E3 1080p LCD deliver extremely low lag. the X1 via HDMI is only 6ms for ex.
they only come in 32"-37" which is the downside. Which would be easily for me considering
i'm currently rocking a 60" S30. XD Amazing set! When the room is dark
the black levels practically blend into the bezel.
I actually did know this but that's because I learned it from you in an earlier post. smile.gif
I stick with hdmi since the lag is still low and it's more convenient for me.
Thanks fot the other info.
post #487 of 785
No prob! And you know, I'll never understand why 'anybody' would want better
black levels than the S30/ST30! In the dark, they practically blend into the bezel,
they're phenomenal! XD I don't need black levels better than this, to me these
are 'perfect' and an improvement would hardly even be noticable.

Custom mode for film for me beats out cinema mode because it has more pop/depth and the blacks
appear richer, plus theres a big advantage in brightness. I'm 100% satisfyed with
the S30, it's such an amazing set. smile.gif

Wii games looking fantastic in 4:3/full screen via component cables in 480p once the
contrast & Sharpness are both maxed out to 100 and when you're at the proper
distance. Plus, Rayman Origins in 1080p on the PS3 completely blew me away.
This 60" makes my 42" look so utterly tiny in comparison haha.

Anyways, I guess I shouldn't say 100% satisfyed since you can't get that 1 frame of lag
through HDMI...it still feels extremely good and responsive, but the difference is
noticable especially when dealing with anything motion controlled based such as
Metroid Prime 3. It's a matter of making that sacrifice for Wii U games that 'do'
support 1080p. SINCE Component doesn't do 1080, plus HDMI provides a bit of a
brighter, crisper and more colorful picture. I guess I'll just have to see for myself
when i unbox my Wii U.

That aside, the S30 and ST30 are a gamers DREAM. I feel so incredibly lucky to have
actually found this set in my area for the price i got it for. I've been looking
for the S30 for months now and the search is finally over. and I'm glad i got the 60"
over the 50" the 10 inches makes an enormous difference, especially for film!. biggrin.gif

if ONLY it had 3D.
post #488 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Anyways, I guess I shouldn't say 100% satisfyed since you can't get that 1 frame of lag
through HDMI...it still feels extremely good and responsive, but the difference is
noticable especially when dealing with anything motion controlled based such as
Metroid Prime 3
.

I believe the input lag you feel on something like Metroid Prime 3 has more to do with the control method than the video cable or your TV. On Wii or Kinect (and I'm sure on PS Move as well), motion control is very laggy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

It's a matter of making that sacrifice for Wii U games that 'do'
support 1080p. SINCE Component doesn't do 1080, plus HDMI provides a bit of a
brighter, crisper and more colorful picture. I guess I'll just have to see for myself
when i unbox my Wii U.

Component doesn't do 1080P? Are you talking about the Wii U specifically? 1080P over component works just fine on my 360.
post #489 of 785
That's not true at all. I own 2 SDTV's(For years now) with zero lag obviously and the wii pointer
controls are 100% spot on and control like a dream. Metroid Prime 3's pointer controls
on 'advanced' mode are absolutely phenomenal, a mind blowing revolution to the first person
genre. Wii controls aren't laggy whatsoever, and if they are it's because of the HDTV.
OR in rare cases certain games may not control as well because of the way they
were developed. The Kinect however DOES have a bit of a delay
and is limmited to 30 frames per second, which has been pointe out online.

My S30 via component like i said and what has been proved online only does 1
frame/16ms and games control wonderfuly, extremely close to the 0ms of my CRT.
the difference between traditional controls seems practically unoticable, however
because you're dealing with 1:1 motion/pointer controls you need every single little
precious millasecond. BUT they a very close to how they are at 0ms. fantastic stuff.

HDMI however raises the lag by a bit. I've done numerous tests side by side
with my CRT & Plasma on multiple games, using both component and HDMI and component
is the way to go. I know what i'm talking about. wink.gif

BTW, the HDMI that i'm using is an adapter for the Wii. But it has faulty
PQ, to the point where colors get a bit more limey, while the image actually looks
a bit brighter ect.

In general does HDMI provide better picture quality over component? Is there
an advantage in color, brightness or getting a crisper image? And I keep hearing that
component can only do up to 1080i, where as 1080p performs a bit off.
post #490 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

And I keep hearing that
component can only do up to 1080i, where as 1080p performs a bit off.

I have an ST50, a Wii U, and a PS3. I can confirm that both the Wii U and PS3 output 1080p over component. I've been forced to use component recently because lightening damaged my a-board and blew out all my HDMI ports. I believe certain content like Blu-Ray movies can't output in 1080p over component because of the DRM architecture HDMI has and component lacks. Wikipedia seems to have a thorough explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video
post #491 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossip View Post

I have an ST50, a Wii U, and a PS3. I can confirm that both the Wii U and PS3 output 1080p over component. I've been forced to use component recently because lightening damaged my a-board and blew out all my HDMI ports.
I believe certain content like Blu-Ray movies can't output in 1080p over component because of the DRM architecture HDMI has and component lacks.
Wikipedia seems to have a thorough explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video


Lightening huh? WOW.lol Talk about an extremely rare situation! XP Anyways, I use HDMI for my Bluray player, so there's no worries
there about having to downgrade to 720p. It's just the Wii U that I'm worried about.

So lets say i have my Wii U set to 1080p through component cables. Would the quality look just as bright, crisp and colorful as
HDMI? What would be the difference between the two. I always got the impression that digital would provide a crisper image over
an analog connection. I hope i'm wrong, because i really want to use component to get that 1 frame of lag! XP I'd hate to
sacriface picture quality, but 'gameplay' matters most.
post #492 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Lightening huh? WOW.lol Talk about an extremely rare situation! XP Anyways, I use HDMI for my Bluray player, so there's no worries
there about having to downgrade to 720p. It's just the Wii U that I'm worried about.
So lets say i have my Wii U set to 1080p through component cables. Would the quality look just as bright, crisp and colorful as
HDMI? What would be the difference between the two. I always got the impression that digital would provide a crisper image over
an analog connection. I hope i'm wrong, because i really want to use component to get that 1 frame of lag! XP I'd hate to
sacriface picture quality, but 'gameplay' matters most.

THe short answer is I don't know since I've been using component since I got my Wii U. I used HDMI on my PS3 but never did a side by side comparison when both were working. I'd say if there is any degradation, it's slight.

My biggest issue on gaming on the ST50 is that you must use the Game Mode to achieve the lowest lag possible and that the game mode seems to apply what I'd define as a dynamic contrast process to the image which I find very distracting and bad. THe closest thing I can compare it to is if under Custom Pro Settings you set ACG and Black Extension all the way up. Basically blacks are crushed and whites are blown out. And the most frustrating thing about it is it doesn't occur in real time, it's delayed by like a half a second, so it's like the tv is taunting me when a detailed scene will pop up only for all the detail to be crushed out a half a second later. THe biggest problem with this is that you can't turn it off and unlike the ST30 you can't just play in Custom since game mode has its own panel driver for the first time (in Panasonic history I believe) to reduce input lag. Very disappointing to me.

What i'm wondering is has panasonic ever released a firmware update to fix or add to a picture mode in the past? (the latest update gave us a new Volume slider) The thing that i'm worried about is that Panasonic doesn't realize there is an issue at all let alone one that needs to be fixed, like "why would everybody want dynamic contrast off" is what they are thinking. I'm also very surprised no one has seems to bring this up in forums or reviews that I can tell. ANyone have any thoughts on this, or know what i'm talking about?
post #493 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossip View Post

I'm also very surprised no one has seems to bring this up in forums or reviews that I can tell. ANyone have any thoughts on this, or know what i'm talking about?

I bought it up on both Avforums and hdtv.test (multiple times I may add). Couldn't get a single comment on it.
My GT50 is a New Zealand model, so I was trying to establish if I was seeing something unique or odd, but since I couldn't get so much as an acknowledgement, I've been none the wiser.

Seems like its not a regional issue and no doubt affects the VT too. Why no one else seems to care is beyond me as I find this totally unacceptable and share your same concerns.
post #494 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

I bought it up on both Avforums and hdtv.test (multiple times I may add). Couldn't get a single comment on it.
My GT50 is a New Zealand model, so I was trying to establish if I was seeing something unique or odd, but since I couldn't get so much as an acknowledgement, I've been none the wiser.
Seems like its not a regional issue and no doubt affects the VT too. Why no one else seems to care is beyond me as I find this totally unacceptable and share your same concerns.

Thanks Fahrenheit for replying to my post, it's good to know at least two people in the world noticed this! I'm thinking of starting a new thread about this since at the very least people should be warned, I just wish Panasonic would fix it in a firmware update since it would seem reasonably doable. It really seems like a layer of video processing that we should be able to turn off, I can't imagine how it could be aiding Game Modes lower input lag.
post #495 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossip View Post

Thanks Fahrenheit for replying to my post, it's good to know at least two people in the world noticed this! I'm thinking of starting a new thread about this since at the very least people should be warned, I just wish Panasonic would fix it in a firmware update since it would seem reasonably doable. It really seems like a layer of video processing that we should be able to turn off, I can't imagine how it could be aiding Game Modes lower input lag.

It used to be that the worst offense was that they defaulted Game mode to a stupidly blue 'Cool' colour temperature which if you couldn't adjust in the user menu, you could at least calibrate it out in the service menu. This seems to be the new dumb thing.

My feedback to Panasonic would be - if you are going to only make one picture preset suitable for low latency gaming, then don't cripple it with gimmicky colour and gamma performance.
post #496 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

My feedback to Panasonic would be - if you are going to only make one picture preset suitable for low latency gaming, then don't cripple it with gimmicky colour and gamma performance.

I couldn't say it better myself!
post #497 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

It used to be that the worst offense was that they defaulted Game mode to a stupidly blue 'Cool' colour temperature which if you couldn't adjust in the user menu, you could at least calibrate it out in the service menu. This seems to be the new dumb thing.
My feedback to Panasonic would be - if you are going to only make one picture preset suitable for low latency gaming, then don't cripple it with gimmicky colour and gamma performance.

So how have you dealt with it, do you game in custom and put up with lag or game mode and cringe through the needless dynamic contrast? It makes me wonder if the Samsung PNE6500 or PNE550 would have been a better choice with the PC Input trick, any word if this contrast nonsense goes on in the samsung side as well?
post #498 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossip View Post

So how have you dealt with it, do you game in custom and put up with lag or game mode and cringe through the needless dynamic contrast? It makes me wonder if the Samsung PNE6500 or PNE550 would have been a better choice with the PC Input trick, any word if this contrast nonsense goes on in the samsung side as well?

I use game mode and cope as best I can.
Game mode on my GT50 is already 16ms more laggy than any mode on my older V10, so I'm already taking a hit in response time. I don't want to compound it further.

I may have to rethink my priorities though. I'm playing Assassin's Creed Revelations at the moment in 3D. The blacks are so crushed that I'm actually struggling in parts to see the environment.
I haven't lag tested 3D game mode (720p) to see if there is any latency benefit, so I might be disadvantaging myself without knowing it.
post #499 of 785
Hi, this seems like the place to ask this question...

Which 42" & 50" 3D/Full HD Plasma's would you recommend that have the quickest response times ie. to help reduce input-lag when gaming.

I had been leaning towards Panasonic models so far but find all the models & info a bit overwhelming! smile.gif
post #500 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonear View Post

Hi, this seems like the place to ask this question...
Which 42" & 50" 3D/Full HD Plasma's would you recommend that have the quickest response times ie. to help reduce input-lag when gaming.
I had been leaning towards Panasonic models so far but find all the models & info a bit overwhelming! smile.gif

Ok, so, about the 42". I'm thinking about getting one for SF4, and I did a lot of reading. And really, it all came to a conclusion that we, gamers, are totally ****ed.
There just isn't a 42" that's good for gaming and tv. Either it has good response time, or good picture quality/black levels. I.e. 42lk450. This looks like the best choice since you won't get burn ins (especially important in games like SF. where you need to see hud, screen doesn't change much, only the characters move). But it has clouding, terrible black levels, and also panel lottery, as if that wasn't already a hard choice.
Then there's are the 42UT50, but that is a plasma (so a red warning flag for me, as sf4 player), and, as been said, it has "dynamic contrast process" in gaming mode.
Also seen the 40PFL5xxx suggested, but it has ghosting, as it turns out ( I can already notice the motion quality going down by going from TFT monitor to IPS one. So a TV with a lot of ghosting/smearing is definitely going to be a problem : \), and also only 32ms as far as i can remember, oh and panel has been bait n switched due to demand.. go figure.

So all in all, im at a loss, if i've missed something, or got something wrong - please tell me. I'd really love to get some feedback about this, as it's a really tough choice.
Edited by GeForceFX5200 - 12/16/12 at 3:41am
post #501 of 785
Leo Bodnars new lag tester device is out!

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=89




Waveboy- sweet pickup on the S30 man! Im glad that it lives up to your expectation, youve had the patience of saint waiting, great news!
Edited by Omnicron - 12/18/12 at 2:33am
post #502 of 785
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossip View Post

Thanks Fahrenheit for replying to my post, it's good to know at least two people in the world noticed this! I'm thinking of starting a new thread about this since at the very least people should be warned, I just wish Panasonic would fix it in a firmware update since it would seem reasonably doable. It really seems like a layer of video processing that we should be able to turn off, I can't imagine how it could be aiding Game Modes lower input lag.

The XX30's do the same thing, so I'd say there's less than zero chance of any kind of update. I'd hazard a guess a focus group somewhere was shown an A/B comparison and told Panasonic the exaggerated picture looked better. Lowest common denominator and all that, you know how it goes. I expect the XX60's will have the same behavior. I guess no one complained about the XX30's cause Game is unnecessary (excepting SD sources, but they look awful anyways). Fahrenheit, what did your measurements show for Game and Non-Game modes on the GT50? I'm assuming ~32ms in Game and ~48ms in Non-Game?
Edited by Orta - 12/20/12 at 12:31am
post #503 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

The XX30's do the same thing, so I'd say there's less than zero chance of any kind of update.

Never knew it affected the 30's too.
Quote:
Fahrenheit, what did your measurements show for Game and Non-Game modes on the GT50? I'm assuming ~32ms in Game and ~48ms in Non-Game?

Yes.
post #504 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

The XX30's do the same thing, so I'd say there's less than zero chance of any kind of update. I'd hazard a guess a focus group somewhere was shown an A/B comparison and told Panasonic the exaggerated picture looked better. Lowest common denominator and all that, you know how it goes. I expect the XX60's will have the same behavior. I guess no one complained about the XX30's cause Game is unnecessary (excepting SD sources, but they look awful anyways). Fahrenheit, what did your measurements show for Game and Non-Game modes on the GT50? I'm assuming ~32ms in Game and ~48ms in Non-Game?

Yes, my expectations of a firmware fix are next to zero, but as you pointed out the reason it's an issue this year and was never an issue in the past is for the first time ever, game mode decreases input lag, it's no longer just a picture preset, and as such Panasonic should not force this dynamic contrast in game mode as they did in the past. Either let 'game mode' be a setting in Custom or let dynamic contrast be turned off.

My question is does Samsung's PNE6500 or E550 force dynamic contrast while gaming in PC input mode? If not, those models might be an ideal choice at least until the 2013 models come out.
post #505 of 785
This is update for WaveBoy and anyone else those interested. The TV repair man Panasonic contracts finally got a new A-Board for my ST50 and installed it yesterday. The replacement worked and now my 3 HDMI ports fully function, so I got to plug my Wii U in via HDMI for the first time. The image quality difference via HDMI was honestly striking and significant compared to component at 1080p on my ST50. I would describe it as pixel perfect in comparison to component; you can see the individual pixels on HDMI while via component the image was softer, less crisp and occasionally would experience some form of interference.

So there you go,1080p component is less then 1080p HDMI.
post #506 of 785
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossip View Post

This is update for WaveBoy and anyone else those interested. The TV repair man Panasonic contracts finally got a new A-Board for my ST50 and installed it yesterday. The replacement worked and now my 3 HDMI ports fully function, so I got to plug my Wii U in via HDMI for the first time. The image quality difference via HDMI was honestly striking and significant compared to component at 1080p on my ST50. I would describe it as pixel perfect in comparison to component; you can see the individual pixels on HDMI while via component the image was softer, less crisp and occasionally would experience some form of interference.
So there you go,1080p component is less then 1080p HDMI.

Rossip can you try pointing your Wii U browser to this address, starting the stopwatch timer that's down the page a little, and snapping a picture with the Wii U tablet and TV both in the shot (what I did here with the U54). Cellphone camera might not have a fast enough shutter to catch the numbers clearly, but a dedicated one should (using the flash sometimes seems to help).
post #507 of 785
My demo of Leo Bodnar's new lag tester:
post #508 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnicron View Post

My demo of Leo Bodnar's new lag tester:

Damn! $110 seems real steep for this thing. I know it's been anticipated for a long time now, but it seems that $110 is way up there for this hardware. Good to see it out now though.
post #509 of 785
I can't find lag input results for my Panasonic G25 tv, but I don't notice any when I play games.

I just bought a LG PA5500 and the lag is BAD.

So I decided I will return that and get another Panasonic, but the U50 this time. Will the U50 be as bad as the LG? And also, for anyone who might know, how would the G25 compare to the U50?
post #510 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Rossip can you try pointing your Wii U browser to this address, starting the stopwatch timer that's down the page a little, and snapping a picture with the Wii U tablet and TV both in the shot (what I did here with the U54). Cellphone camera might not have a fast enough shutter to catch the numbers clearly, but a dedicated one should (using the flash sometimes seems to help).

I will when I get a chance, I've been pretty busy with the holiday and all.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Plasma Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread.