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The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread. - Page 18

post #511 of 785
So I've read through this entire thread and am still confused.

What plasmas deliver 16ms or less?
post #512 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by theaero View Post

So I've read through this entire thread and am still confused.
What plasmas deliver 16ms or less?

Using the older (standard) measuring system, the safest bet seems to be the Samsung PS51E6500 or PS60E6500 regards modern day plasmas are concerned. Don't know if it's only the UK models or not. I'm in the UK so I've just ordered the 51" version which at £665 is surely the greatest bang for your buck TV available. It's the end of season line in production so if you can source one it's a safe bet.

Everyone is going brightly lit showroom friendly LED crazy so it's a good time to pick up a decent/cheap Plasma. smile.gif

The Panasonic TX-P50ST50B would also be a fairly safe bet especially if you value blacks & want a 50" for good value.

As soon as you jump up to 60" then the 60" Samsung is the most recommended overall.

The Samsungs also have the best Smart TV functionality & arguably slightly better Active 3D performance as well. Hope this info helps, I've been researching it solid (with input lag being my primary concern) & these have been my findings.

This was a key review amongst the ones I found online:-

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ps60e6500-ps51e6500-201207262022.htm

In particular when they said:-

"Console Gaming
Although the PS60E6500 has a dedicated “Game Mode” buried in the menu, ignore it. When a 60hz signal is input, there’s a semi-hidden “PC” mode which has even lower input lag, owed to the fact that it takes RGB video from the video game console, and sends it straight to the panel for display. Accordingly, nearly all of the video processing features are disabled. Because this mode works with RGB, [Colour] is locked out (because there’s no use for this control in RGB mode), as is [Colour Space]. You can still use 2-point Greyscale correction, though.
It’s accessed by pressing the SOURCE button, highlighting the HDMI input that your games console is connected to, pressing TOOLS, and changing the label to “PC”. In this setup, input lag was only 16ms compared to a CRT display, making the Samsung PS60E6500 one of the fastest TVs for gaming we’ve tested. Couple this with an uncanny ability to avoid image retention, coupled with the usual picture quality and motion clarity inherent to Plasma technology, and we’re left with a video gamer’s dream.
The input labelling trick works with all of the HDMI inputs, not just HDMI1 as was the case with some older Samsung plasmas. If you run all of your devices through an AV receiver into a single TV input, for convenience’s sake, it’s best to connect the console directly to one of the TV’s three HDMI inputs, to avoid the “PC mode” becoming active with non-gaming 60hz signals such as US DVDs or Blu-ray material that isn’t 24p. (You should do this anyway, in case your receiver is adding input lag)."


They also awarded the 60" (with its Panasonic like blacks) their TV of the year. The above ST50 Panasonic was the clear readers choice but Panasonic had already established themselves as the 'go-to' for Plasmas. This is said to be the year where Samsung has caught up with them & beyond the Black levels factor, pretty much the Samsung had the edge in every other regard.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/best-led-tv-plasma-201212232482.htm

The 60" version is over twice the price here in the UK compared to the already sizable 51". I've heard some say that the bigger the set you get the more potential lag. Coupled with the increase in cost & the fact that the 60" would probably be a little too big for my (average) living room size, I decided I would be best to stick to the 51" for most reasons, even if money hadn't been a factor. I'm sure it's 'Real Black Filter' levels will still be a vast improvement over my old 42" Hitachi standard Def Plasma that it's replacing, & for most people who aren't used to the best of Panasonic's levels of black.

Anyway good luck, it is a bit of a minefield & confusing headf**k. I can't remember even thinking of Input-Lag when I last bought my old Plasma!! smile.gif

ps. I believe the US version is called PN51/60E6500
http://m.cnet.com/reviews/samsung-pn51e6500/35159639
Edited by demonear - 1/6/13 at 3:43am
post #513 of 785
How is glare on the samsung? I'm comparing the 51" to the st50, assuming the st50 can really deliver 16ms.

I'm worried about glare on both devices, and performance at 240/480/720
post #514 of 785
The e6500 is said to have the edge in bright rooms & regards reflections but that's not to say the st50 cant hold its on. Both have great anti glare measures. I'm not gettin my Samsung until Tuesday by the way man

the trade off with the Samsung having such a class leading screen filter is that you need to turn the cell light up a bit and if you're standing above the screen it can look a bit darker.

the st50 has a higher contrast/brighter screen by default, yet the Samsung still performs better in bright rooms etc.

i would say if screen glare, response times & screen burn are your main concerns then defo get the Samsung. If its the best black's you want then get the Panasonic.

Both are great TVs.
Edited by demonear - 1/7/13 at 4:56am
post #515 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by theaero View Post

How is glare on the samsung? I'm comparing the 51" to the st50, assuming the st50 can really deliver 16ms.
I'm worried about glare on both devices, and performance at 240/480/720

Be warned that to achieve the lowest input lag, the ST50 must be set to game mode, and game mode uses a dynamic contrast/brightness filter that can not be turned off, and is very inaccurate.
post #516 of 785
Get the E6500 for gaming its the dogs tits. had a shot last night & it well surpassed all expectations..
post #517 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonear View Post

Get the E6500 for gaming its the dogs tits. had a shot last night & it well surpassed all expectations..

It might have low input lag, but too many complaints of buzzing and good luck if you ever get the infamous SCD (spider crack of death). Just go to amazon and look at some of the 1 star reviews. It's a well known issue that these TV's have a design flaw that causes the glass panel to crack from the inside in some occasions. Unless something has changed in the last weeks, when you file a warranty claim Samsung will accuse you of having caused physical damage and not honor the warranty. You'll be stuck with a worthless non working crap TV. No thanks!
Edited by tjernie - 1/9/13 at 4:59pm
post #518 of 785
The one thing that the Samsungs have against is it the noticeably louder buzz compared to Panasonics - apparently.

All i know is i am thinking about exchanging my Panasonic ST50 for a E6500 because of slight DSE, linebleed, Netflix flicker (all non-issues really - just annoyances) - its the IR and the slightly crappier 3D that may make me switch. Than and the 60" E6500 is about $300 cheaper than the 60" ST50
post #519 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjernie View Post

It might have low input lag, but too many complaints of buzzing and good luck if you ever get the infamous SCD (spider crack of death). Just go to amazon and look at some of the 1 star reviews. It's a well known issue that these TV's have a design flaw that causes the glass panel to crack from the inside in some occasions. Unless something has changed in the last weeks, when you file a warranty claim Samsung will accuse you of having caused physical damage and not honor the warranty. You'll be stuck a worthless non working crap TV. No thanks!

It's true that there's a certain percentage of buyers who have suffered from the panel buzz, it was my main concern. I'm happy to report I'm one of many who don't have the problem. It's the same with the panel cracking but it's probably a bit less common.

So far anyone I know who's suffered from the panel buzz problem they've either successfully had it replaced or had a refund. I'd heard about both problems & it was the reason that I took out a 5 year warranty.

All I can say so so good & it's the best £700 I've ever spent on anything smile.gif

If it goes wrong or the panel cracks in the space of 5 years then I've been promised a replacement with the most recent equivalent model.
post #520 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonear View Post

It's true that there's a certain percentage of buyers who have suffered from the panel buzz, it was my main concern. I'm happy to report I'm one of many who don't have the problem. It's the same with the panel cracking but it's probably a bit less common.

So far anyone I know who's suffered from the panel buzz problem they've either successfully had it replaced or had a refund. I'd heard about both problems & it was the reason that I took out a 5 year warranty.

All I can say so so good & it's the best £700 I've ever spent on anything smile.gif

If it goes wrong or the panel cracks in the space of 5 years then I've been promised a replacement with the most recent equivalent model.

Sounds good.
Who did you get your warranty from? square trade? Did they specifically confirm they would replace a plasma if such a crack occurred?
post #521 of 785
I think you guys should come up with a better test.
post #522 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fosdi1ck View Post

I think you guys should come up with a better test.

There already is; look at post 507 by Omnicron
post #523 of 785
I picked up a e6500 like new from amazon warehouse deals for $650 + tax, free shipping. I hope its what I am looking for!
post #524 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by theaero View Post

So I've read through this entire thread and am still confused.

What plasmas deliver 16ms or less?
Me too I'm pretty much done with these threads idk what people are talking about crushed and inaccurate colors and all this crap, black levels could be a smidge better on my UT but thats about it, if you want lower input lag go get a 32" computer monitor
post #525 of 785
I've researched all the D and E plasma models and they all report around 16ms in pc mode. I've not read 1 review from 1,000's that the owner complains of lag input.

Just stay away from LG!!!!

If you can get someone with a Samsung plasma to visit http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/ on their console online and do the simple test, anything under a 260ms average should be playable with no feeling of lag.
post #526 of 785
Anyone seen this YouTube review of Leo Bodnar's lag tester on an Australian Panasonic ST50?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj6p-fEjCGA

43ms lag?

Looks like all of you praising the ST50 are so, so wrong! biggrin.gif
post #527 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjernie View Post

Sounds good.
Who did you get your warranty from? square trade? Did they specifically confirm they would replace a plasma if such a crack occurred?

Sorry man I'm in the UK & it was a company called TV & Video Direct (who I used before for my first hd plasma)

They said they'd fix/mend/replace any problems that occurred & if they couldn't then it would be replaced with the latest model.

By the way anyone who's worried about the buzzing. It comes supplied with 2 power cable insulators that most people don't use then wonder why it still buzzes. (according to chap on the phone)

I'm wondering what the percentage is of people who haven't realised that's what they're for because to be fair it's not very obvious.

Mine buzzes only slightly at times but I haven't even fitted them yet. I expect zero to no buzz (hopefully ever) once I do.

& yes it is a plasma thing but that's the price you pay for the best picture at this stage it seems..
post #528 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Anyone seen this YouTube review of Leo Bodnar's lag tester on an Australian Panasonic ST50?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj6p-fEjCGA

43ms lag?

Looks like all of you praising the ST50 are so, so wrong! biggrin.gif
Nobodys praising it every one is hating on it, but have people actually tested the ST30 and samsungs with this new device? Either way I had such a hard time deciding on a tv that im not talking my ST50 back and paying more for a worse looking Samsung.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonear View Post

Sorry man I'm in the UK & it was a company called TV & Video Direct (who I used before for my first hd plasma)

They said they'd fix/mend/replace any problems that occurred & if they couldn't then it would be replaced with the latest model.

By the way anyone who's worried about the buzzing. It comes supplied with 2 power cable insulators that most people don't use then wonder why it still buzzes. (according to chap on the phone)

I'm wondering what the percentage is of people who haven't realised that's what they're for because to be fair it's not very obvious.

Mine buzzes only slightly at times but I haven't even fitted them yet. I expect zero to no buzz (hopefully ever) once I do.

& yes it is a plasma thing but that's the price you pay for the best picture at this stage it seems..
Is that what the little gray balls with wholes threw them are? My UT came with 4, but the buzzing isn't from the power cable like with speakers, its from the screen it's self isn't it?
post #529 of 785
So I'm planning on returning my UT or at least an ST. The E6500 is $100 more than the GT and $250 more than the ST is that wroth it? I'm really confused CNET says that the ST is a lot brighter than the samsung so the samsung doesn't have as good of contrast but then PC mag says that the E6500 is brighter than the ST, wtf?

Whats the E6500 vs E6500EF?
post #530 of 785
Just in case you guys are not already subscribed to the LCD input lag thread (which also contains measurements for plasmas) here is some new data for both LCD and plasma:

results with 1080p Leo Bodnar tester:

panny U50
27.8ms confirmed game mode (I'm thinking the 27.1 I got earlier must have already been in game mode). the decimals fluctuate.

panny ST50 (american version). Omicron got ~43 on his Australian version
39ms game mode

Sammy UN55ES7500 (thanks amisfit for the button trick!)
80ms standard
40.1ms game mode

Vizio M550SL
42.6ms standard
42.5ms game mode (game mode does pretty much nothing on this TV)

LG55LM7600
121.7ms standard
28.6ms game mode

sammy PN64E550D1FXZA
71.6ms standard
38.3ms game

Sony KDL60EX645
127ms standard
132ms custom with everything off (there does not appear to be a game mode)

Sharp LC-60LE845U
signal not detected even with the button trick frown.gif

Sharp LC-60LE745U
signal not detected frown.gif

Sony KDL55HX750
signal not detected

LG65LM6200:
127.8 ms standard mode
31.2 game mode

LG55LM8600
Signal not detected from tester frown.gif

Mits WD-73740 (DLP)
42.1 ms (there is no game mode)

Samsung UN55ES8000
115.8 ms standard mode
49.4 game mode

Sony KDL60EX720
Signal not detected
post #531 of 785
Can we consolidate this stuff into one post? I know people have tested the UT50 but idk were and I forgot, I want to see how it compares to the U and ST.
post #532 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerninja View Post

Just in case you guys are not already subscribed to the LCD input lag thread (which also contains measurements for plasmas) here is some new data for both LCD and plasma:

results with 1080p Leo Bodnar tester:

panny U50
27.8ms confirmed game mode (I'm thinking the 27.1 I got earlier must have already been in game mode). the decimals fluctuate.

panny ST50 (american version). Omicron got ~43 on his Australian version
39ms game mode

Sammy UN55ES7500 (thanks amisfit for the button trick!)
80ms standard
40.1ms game mode

Vizio M550SL
42.6ms standard
42.5ms game mode (game mode does pretty much nothing on this TV)

LG55LM7600
121.7ms standard
28.6ms game mode

sammy PN64E550D1FXZA
71.6ms standard
38.3ms game

Sony KDL60EX645
127ms standard
132ms custom with everything off (there does not appear to be a game mode)

Sharp LC-60LE845U
signal not detected even with the button trick frown.gif

Sharp LC-60LE745U
signal not detected frown.gif

Sony KDL55HX750
signal not detected

LG65LM6200:
127.8 ms standard mode
31.2 game mode

LG55LM8600
Signal not detected from tester frown.gif

Mits WD-73740 (DLP)
42.1 ms (there is no game mode)

Samsung UN55ES8000
115.8 ms standard mode
49.4 game mode

Sony KDL60EX720
Signal not detected

By game mode for the Samsung's, do you mean the PC Input trick, as that's what really should be tested, not just the game preset.
post #533 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Nobodys praising it every one is hating on it, but have people actually tested the ST30 and samsungs with this new device? Either way I had such a hard time deciding on a tv that im not talking my ST50 back and paying more for a worse looking Samsung

I'm surprised people notice 43ms, on the LG 47LW450U thread the pc input trick lowering lag to well over 60ms has fooled all but the most serious FPS gamers.
post #534 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Nobodys praising it every one is hating on it, but have people actually tested the ST30 and samsungs with this new device? Either way I had such a hard time deciding on a tv that im not talking my ST50 back and paying more for a worse looking Samsung.
Is that what the little gray balls with wholes threw them are? My UT came with 4, but the buzzing isn't from the power cable like with speakers, its from the screen it's self isn't it?

It's weird the ST50 costs about £200 more in the UK typically compared to the Samsung 51E6500 . Also the Samsung is considered the slightly more pleasing to the eye with it's understated looks & gun metal frame with clear border. Don't know why they went with the spider legs style feet in the US as this spoils the look completely..

Yeah it must be regards the grey balls. I've got 2 which I haven't even fitted properly yet but luckily it looks/sounds like I don't need them smile.gif
post #535 of 785
Spend some time reading about Samsungs horrible CS, their dying panels withing 4 to 5 years (mine has developed a black line that is very common), cracking panels etc.. and then learn to buy another brand.
post #536 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarich View Post

Spend some time reading about Samsungs horrible CS, their dying panels withing 4 to 5 years (mine has developed a black line that is very common), cracking panels etc.. and then learn to buy another brand.

I think the thing to realise with the Samsung's are that despite the lower quality control, you are usually getting more for your money, so that seems to be the trade off.

For me the 5 year guarantee was a no-brainer because of this & I'd never recommend buying a panel w/out one anyway. In the end for me it was the console gaming & input lag performance that swayed me & I was willing to take a chance with everything else. So far I'm over the moon with my set & I can't believe how much better it is than my old one which cost twice the price when I bought it & was much smaller too!

It's also true that for every person you read about making noises complaining on a forum about their TV that there's going to be a greater majority who are happy with their perfect product - therefore you don't hear from them at all! they are the silent majority if you like.

HDTV gave the 60" version of the E6500 their Editors choice TV of the year & said it was a 'console gamers dream come true' or words to that effect.

The only reason I came on here was to share my findings & say that so far I can see why they said this, & that despite my initial doubts over buying a Samsung (I initially had my heart set on a Panny) I can truly see & feel why critics of Plasma's are saying that this is arguably the year when Samsung caught up with Panasonic.

I don't think anyone can dispute the value for money (as long as you find a panel with low buzz levels in particular). & I would just return it until you had one that was quiet if it was me.
post #537 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonear View Post

I think the thing to realise with the Samsung's are that despite the lower quality control, you are usually getting more for your money, so that seems to be the trade off.

For me the 5 year guarantee was a no-brainer because of this & I'd never recommend buying a panel w/out one anyway. In the end for me it was the console gaming & input lag performance that swayed me & I was willing to take a chance with everything else. So far I'm over the moon with my set & I can't believe how much better it is than my old one which cost twice the price when I bought it & was much smaller too!

It's also true that for every person you read about making noises complaining on a forum about their TV that there's going to be a greater majority who are happy with their perfect product - therefore you don't hear from them at all! they are the silent majority if you like.

HDTV gave the 60" version of the E6500 their Editors choice TV of the year & said it was a 'console gamers dream come true' or words to that effect.

The only reason I came on here was to share my findings & say that so far I can see why they said this, & that despite my initial doubts over buying a Samsung (I initially had my heart set on a Panny) I can truly see & feel why critics of Plasma's are saying that this is arguably the year when Samsung caught up with Panasonic.

I don't think anyone can dispute the value for money (as long as you find a panel with low buzz levels in particular). & I would just return it until you had one that was quiet if it was me.

Nice post Demonear! As a E6500 owner, how would you say the sound quality of the built in speakers are? The ST50's are surprisingly good by the standards set by tv speaker's today, definitely better than the ST30's. Also, the ST50 has this nasty dynamic contrast/brightness thing going on in game mode. Does it seem like your samsung experiences any of this when using it in it's lowest lag state via the PC input trick?
post #538 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossip View Post

Nice post Demonear! As a E6500 owner, how would you say the sound quality of the built in speakers are? The ST50's are surprisingly good by the standards set by tv speaker's today, definitely better than the ST30's. Also, the ST50 has this nasty dynamic contrast/brightness thing going on in game mode. Does it seem like your samsung experiences any of this when using it in it's lowest lag state via the PC input trick?

hi rossip, thanks very much! The only area I have been in the least bit disappointed with has been the sound. But to be honest disappointed is the wrong word as I knew that the sound wasn't going to sound as good as my last TV because it had tasty big front facing speakers built on to its sides so naturally I'm comparing it to that. ie this puppy.. :-

http://www.hitachidigitalmedia.com/product.do?actionName=showProductAction&pt=13&pg=63&proid=464

I'm kind of getting used to it to a degree though & I've heard it's as good as any regards modern day thin TVs that have bottom firing narrow speakers etc. I think I did read that the sound is better than the Panasonics. It could be down to the Panny panel being a little thinner maybe I don't know. I've read people say in reviews that they think the sound is great. I think Panasonics sound bars etc are maybe better than Samsungs though.

I'm defo looking at either a sound bar or something more substantial I haven't made up my mind yet. I just need it to be as good as it was on my trusty old Hitachi really.

Regards the 'PC' mode I absolutely love it on my PS3. I've read it looks better on PS3 than 360 for some reason & people run with different output settings (other than full RGB) for that system. I think it looks great in 'game' mode too (with tweaked settings) but was over the moon to discover that the 16ms measured PC mode looked the most natural & best to my discerning eyes

I mainly play Battlefield 3 & it's never looked better. Even compared to when I used to play it on pc. Far Cry 3 looks great as well & I've not really tried anything else yet!
post #539 of 785
Is there something special you need to do in pc mode like where your hdmi cable should be plugged into. On my 60e7000 if I use pc mode on my ps3 everything looks real blurry. But maybe it depends on the game. Happened when i was playing god of war 2 from the PS3 GOW collection. It looked terrible in PC mode. On game mode much sharper and what I would expect it should look like. But I can say one thing great about pc mode is that I finally beat a boss that was driving me insane by using pc mode... smile.gif I don't know if it was luck or the lower input lag. But the game did feel different to the point where the character really felt like he was moving when I controlled him to do so smile.gif
post #540 of 785
Just got my e6500 today. Letting it get to room temp before setting up (10F here)
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