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The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread. - Page 26

post #751 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The Wii U's wireless video feed on the gamepad has been clocked at two frames.

Didn't Nintendo say it was 1? If it's 2, with that extra frame of delay for VC titles that would give Wii U VC titles a grand total of 3 frames....what a joke. It would be 3 frames total with the S60 as well. Not interested in VC off-play, i'll stick to playing VC titles on my Wii hooked up to my lag free 27" sony CRT which gives me only 1 frame delay. even then, i've done comparisons between the actual carts on my NES on the same TV vs the wii emulations, and the original games on the NES still perform a bit quicker, on the dime and feel a little lighter overall. You just can't beat the real thing.cool.gif

Also, even 3DS VC games feel a little laggy, i've done quite a few comparisons and the difference is there between the emulations and real thing.Wario Land and Kirby's Dreamland felt quicker and bouncier on both my GB, GBC & GBA.
post #752 of 785
Eurogamer clocked the gamepad at 2 frames using NSMBU as the base and a 60fps camera. (And a display that had two frames of lag as a base)

If you had read the w802 LCD thread you would have seen the detailed explination of why Leo's device can't accurately read the lag of any display with flicker, which results in a higher reading than it really has. The s60 probably has under 20ms of lag in reality because of this.
post #753 of 785
I'll let you know tonight smile.gif (Well, I should say, I'll give you my rough, unscientific thoughts tonight)
Edited by PogueSquadron - 8/8/13 at 5:49pm
post #754 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Eurogamer clocked the gamepad at 2 frames using NSMBU as the base and a 60fps camera. (And a display that had two frames of lag as a base)

If you had read the w802 LCD thread you would have seen the detailed explination of why Leo's device can't accurately read the lag of any display with flicker, which results in a higher reading than it really has. The s60 probably has under 20ms of lag in reality because of this.

The S30 with the Leo B device scored 32ms using HDMI. But in reality, whatever the true numbers are using component cables vs HDMI on this particular set yields a difference in input lag. Now, i know how the S30 feels using HDMI which i'm not entirely satisfied with, so there's no way the S60 will be a better performer, it will be nearly the same if that. the S30's 32ms vs the S60's 34ms readings may be higher than they actually are, but since they are both basically the same number i expect the delay to feel the same.
post #755 of 785
Check out the TC-65PS64 and TC-50PS64 Owners' thread for my quick first impressions.

Regarding input lag, it feels good for me. We have different tolerances, yeah, but it's better than my current TV. Some quick photos showed about the same amount of lag as the Wii U Gamepad. All in all, the little I've played feels similar to the Gamepad...maybe a little better? I really have yet to try anything hardcore. Just farted around in NSMBU, SMB2, Rayman Legends App, Disney Universe, God of War 3 Demo.
post #756 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

The S30 with the Leo B device scored 32ms using HDMI. But in reality, whatever the true numbers are using component cables vs HDMI on this particular set yields a difference in input lag. Now, i know how the S30 feels using HDMI which i'm not entirely satisfied with, so there's no way the S60 will be a better performer, it will be nearly the same if that. the S30's 32ms vs the S60's 34ms readings may be higher than they actually are, but since they are both basically the same number i expect the delay to feel the same.

I have the w900a and two U50 plasmas. I also have the leo bodnar device. My w900a reads 19.1ms with the leo bodnar device, while both my U50 plasmas read 26.8ms input lag. I did a side-by-side comparison of my w900a and my U50 plasma with an HDMI splitter and while the U50 reads as having higher input lag, it is noticeably faster then the w900a. For example, in a scene change during a movie such as when it goes from black to a new scene, you can see the U50 changing just a hair faster. It is slight, but noticeable if your looking for it.
post #757 of 785
That just adds to the theory that the Leo B. device just can't read displays with flicker accurately.
post #758 of 785
So why was it reported in the 30ms+ range when impulse mode was engaged?
post #759 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

So why was it reported in the 30ms+ range when impulse mode was engaged?

Sorry I got things mixed up. You are correct I just tested it again and with impulse on it reads 30.2ms.
Edited by *UFO* - 8/10/13 at 2:22pm
post #760 of 785
Wow. So the Leo Bodnar input lag revolution is dead. That's an expensive brick people are buying. eek.gif
post #761 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper View Post

Wow. So the Leo Bodnar input lag revolution is dead. That's an expensive brick people are buying. eek.gif

It still pulls consistant numbers regardless, but it has an issue with flicker that adds lag to it's reading. (It was explained in detail in the Sony w802 thread) Whether it is a set amount or a percentage remains unclear.
post #762 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper View Post

Wow. So the Leo Bodnar input lag revolution is dead. That's an expensive brick people are buying. eek.gif

No, it is a consistent base line and works perfectly for other displays. Even if it cant read plasmas accurately, it can still give you a general idea. If a plasma reads 30ms but in reality is closer to 16ms, and another plasma reads 60ms, then you can assume the plasma that reads 60ms is going to have around 32ms of input lag (if indeed it is a percentage of the original amount that it is off). I still think it was well worth the $130 with shipping. Also, they are coming out with a version 2, so hopefully the issue will be fixed. As with all new technology there are always bugs to work out tongue.gif
post #763 of 785
gaming on HDTV's is as overrated as it is. Aside from input lag and offering an unstable picture......I can't stand playing 30fps games on ANY HDTV. The frame doubling is just nasty.... I find that, the most enjoyment i get is gaming on a CRT via component cables. No lag, no ABL, no motion blur/dithering, no frame doubling, OR input lag. I play games to PLAY games, not to sit there bathing in HD pretty visuals. I'll be playing only 60fps based Wii U games on my upcomming 50" or 55" S60 and that's that. I'm a retro gamer at heart, and my 27" Sony CRT is more than enough to keep me happy.cool.gif
post #764 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

gaming on HDTV's is as overrated as it is. Aside from input lag and offering an unstable picture......I can't stand playing 30fps games on ANY HDTV. The frame doubling is just nasty.... I find that, the most enjoyment i get is gaming on a CRT via component cables. No lag, no ABL, no motion blur/dithering, no frame doubling, OR input lag. I play games to PLAY games, not to sit there bathing in HD pretty visuals. I'll be playing only 60fps based Wii U games on my upcomming 50" or 55" S60 and that's that. I'm a retro gamer at heart, and my 27" Sony CRT is more than enough to keep me happy.cool.gif

I just cant stand seeing pixels on CRT screens, and they are so blurry compared to plasma and especially LCD.
post #765 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post


I just cant stand seeing pixels on CRT screens, and they are so blurry compared to plasma and especially LCD.

Can't argue with that! Although Wii games for example look pretty sharp and crisp on my Sony Wega trinitron when using component cables.wink.gif
But you're not getting the ultra crisp/clearer picture + Progressive scan of an HDTV. I use my CRT for NES, SNES, Atarti 2600, Wii, Gamecube, DVD's and VHS. It's perfect for 480 based material. Which is why i have it as my little shnazzy nostalgic secondary display to begin with.cool.gif Actually, it's probably really my main display haha considering i watch more DVD's and play retro games more so than Wii U & bluray.
post #766 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Can't argue with that! Although Wii games for example look pretty sharp and crisp on my Sony Wega trinitron when using component cables.wink.gif
But you're not getting the ultra crisp/clearer picture + Progressive scan of an HDTV. I use my CRT for NES, SNES, Atarti 2600, Wii, Gamecube, DVD's and VHS. It's perfect for 480 based material. Which is why i have it as my little shnazzy nostalgic secondary display to begin with.cool.gif Actually, it's probably really my main display haha considering i watch more DVD's and play retro games more so than Wii U & bluray.

Well the sony trinitrons are amazing CRT's. If I could find a KD-34XBR960 id buy it in a second. Those were amazing. cool.gif
post #767 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Didn't Nintendo say it was 1? If it's 2, with that extra frame of delay for VC titles that would give Wii U VC titles a grand total of 3 frames....what a joke. It would be 3 frames total with the S60 as well. Not interested in VC off-play, i'll stick to playing VC titles on my Wii hooked up to my lag free 27" sony CRT which gives me only 1 frame delay. even then, i've done comparisons between the actual carts on my NES on the same TV vs the wii emulations, and the original games on the NES still perform a bit quicker, on the dime and feel a little lighter overall. You just can't beat the real thing.cool.gif

Also, even 3DS VC games feel a little laggy, i've done quite a few comparisons and the difference is there between the emulations and real thing.Wario Land and Kirby's Dreamland felt quicker and bouncier on both my GB, GBC & GBA.

I hate to make things worse,

But,

Emulators in general lag around 3 frames. Its nearly impossible to emulate games with 2 frames or less of lag due to the nature of how emulators process frames. Even the most accurate SNES emulator (BSNES) lags 3-4 frames on average, and Nintendo's own emulators are no-where near as accurate as BSNES (now called Higan).

So Waveboy, whats happening is your playing with 4-5 frames of lag JUST with the Gamepad by itself (or the 3DS by itself) when you add the 3 frame laggy emulators with the 1-2 frame laggy LCD. And don't forget that if you hook up your Wii-U to a HDTV, then your going to add even more lag.

Solution? Get a Sony PVM or BVM CRT monitor, hook up a REAL console via RGB, and you'll be in retro heaven. No emulator-lag, and no LCD/Plasma lag. No digital processing AT ALL. 100% analog! (there are even multi-sync PVM and BVM's that can do 240p, 480p, 720p, and 1080i without any upscaling. 100% lag free).
post #768 of 785
Anyone know the input lag of the Samsung c6970 or c7790 which are almost identical? I have a big lipsync problem with the c6970 connected via HDMI 1.4 to my AVR Onkyo 616. Delay has to be at around 80-140ms?!
Thank you in advance
post #769 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by d3rd3vil View Post

Anyone know the input lag of the Samsung c6970 or c7790 which are almost identical? I have a big lipsync problem with the c6970 connected via HDMI 1.4 to my AVR Onkyo 616. Delay has to be at around 80-140ms?!
Thank you in advance
Is the delay that pronounced with all source material, or one in specific? That amount of lip sync issue seems inordinately high...not to mention your receiver has auto lip sync correction does it not? Just wondering how you stumbled across it to begin with...game system, Blu ray, cable box?
post #770 of 785
Has input lag become worse on newer Samsung plasmas? I have a 64D8000 (2011) and it has about 80ms in movie mode and it feels terrible with a mouse FPS but in game mode it actually feels pretty good. I doubt if it's more than 25ms. EDIT: Actually 31ms according to hdtvtest. That's acceptable for me. If I was a professional PC FPS player it wouldn't be acceptable (and I wouldn't be using a 64" display anyway) but for all other types of gaming it's pretty much perfect.
Edited by Redmist - 9/5/13 at 9:40pm
post #771 of 785
Yeah well the thing is of course I don't want to activate the game mode and lose picture quality. Without the game mode Plasma TVs can have an input lag up to over 100ms! And no there is no specific video or audio file. Dolby Digital or DTS or DTS HD and Blurays or MKVs or whatever, doesn't matter. Same delay!
My Receiver has Lipsync yes but I wrote an E-Mail to Onkyo and they told me the SOURCE has to be able to send out the lipsync signal to my Receiver. Otherwise it won't work. And apparently my Mediaplayer Dune Base 3D doesn't know what Lipsync is rolleyes.gif

So I have to manually determine the AV-Sync delay and about 100ms seems right!

@Redmist: How do you know your TV has 80ms? Did you just test it by eye and ear during a movie? Or sth. else?
Edited by d3rd3vil - 9/11/13 at 5:23am
post #772 of 785
Push it!
post #773 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmist View Post

Has input lag become worse on newer Samsung plasmas? I have a 64D8000 (2011) and it has about 80ms in movie mode and it feels terrible with a mouse FPS but in game mode it actually feels pretty good. I doubt if it's more than 25ms. EDIT: Actually 31ms according to hdtvtest. That's acceptable for me. If I was a professional PC FPS player it wouldn't be acceptable (and I wouldn't be using a 64" display anyway) but for all other types of gaming it's pretty much perfect.

The input lag according to HDTV Test for my T.V (LG 60PK950, from 2010) is 51ms.
I play a lot of COD (in fact it is the only game I have plyed in months). Not trying toot my own horn here, but I routinely kick butt...I play Free For All mainly and I consistenly win if not place in the top 3 in almost every game played.
My Xbox 360 is plugged in to my receiver, then then the receiver to the T.V, and I use a wireLESS controller. Undoubtedly these 2 factors introduce some additional input latency (albeit minimal). That said, I am desperately trying to understand how someone can say that anything more than 2 frames (30ms), is average or bad input lag? I seem to do just fine in every game I play (I play racing games also on occasion)...so is it that the people I am playing against are just not that good (unlikely), or is this whole Input Lag thing being a little blown out of proportion? I would be shocked, amazed, impressed...and confused - if anyone could tell the difference between 30ms and 50ms...we are talkiing about 20ms here, which is so fast that no one in the world can react quickly enough to benfit from it.
In the end I would of course prefer a display with less lag than more lag...but IMHO, I think that any display getting readings under 50ms is MORE than adequate for most gamers...the proof is in the putting.
post #774 of 785
Hi my panasonic st30 is on its way out image retention is getting bad. panasonic got me to go back to the store so it turns out I can pick anything really in the same price range as the st60.I know the lag on st60 is high, what's the best plazma right now in terms of input lag and will it shine like st30 with games smile.gif
post #775 of 785
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by addict gamer View Post

Hi my panasonic st30 is on its way out image retention is getting bad. panasonic got me to go back to the store so it turns out I can pick anything really in the same price range as the st60.I know the lag on st60 is high, what's the best plazma right now in terms of input lag and will it shine like st30 with games smile.gif

The S60 is most likely the best current model PDP in terms of input lag. PQ wise, it will outperform your ST30 in a dim/dark room, but not necessarily in a lit room as it has no AR filter (or a very low end one). It's also not 3D if that's something you enjoy. In terms of lag, the VT60 could possibly be the same as the S60 or up to 1 frame slower-- assuming they'll let you pay the extra for an upgrade. I say most likely and possibly as there is some debate over the accuracy of the Bodnar Lag Testing device in regards to PDP's, which puts the S60 just short of 1 frame faster than the VT60. I would not consider the ST60 at all as a serious/primary gaming display.
post #776 of 785
Hi,

Why can't I find the S60 in Europe? Is it a different model or it's not yet available?

Thanks
Rui
post #777 of 785
Panasonic PF50 Plasma Monitor
Under ~10ms at 60Hz
Around ~5ms at 120Hz

North America(U) / Europe(E) / United Kingdom(ER) / Japan(J) / Asia, Oceania, Middle East, South America(W)
42PF50U, 42PF50E, 42PF50ER, 42PF50J, 42PF50W 42"
50PF50U, 50PF50E, 50PF50ER, 50PF50J, 50PF50W 50"
60PF50U, 60PF50E, 60PF50ER, 60PF50J, 60PF50W 60"
65PF50U, 65PF50E, 65PF50ER, 65PF50J, 65PF50W 65"

I am writing a newbie guide for these very monitors
post #778 of 785
In case anyone googles, I did the basic photo test in the first post on a Panasonic TH-42PH9 (input lag) 42" plasma monitor with any processing options turned off, with a Lenovo T420 laptop as VGA source. The delta was 40ms.
post #779 of 785
hmm, Ive looked at the s60, I don't think i can do it. The screen is far to reflective for my liking. With the xbox one, ps4 added to my collection ( still have a wii, 360, ps3 as well) im in the market for a hdmi splitter and some redmere hdmi cables and have been looking on mono price. Has anyone tested any of the splitters for lag?
post #780 of 785
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper View Post

Wow. So the Leo Bodnar input lag revolution is dead. That's an expensive brick people are buying. eek.gif

I don't believe this is the case, the Bodnar does in fact seem to be accurate for PDP's--including the newer panels and driving methods. I recently tested a NA VT60 on my laptop and SMTT (same set up I used on the GT30 and U54) and it comes out pretty much dead on with the Bodnar's output. I know the U54 reads ~15-17ms in SMTT and we have Bodnar results pegging it at ~27ms, so we can safely assume the laptop display has ~13ms(+/-) of lag. On the VT60, SMTT is showing up to 34ms (pictured below), so adding up to 13ms to that from the laptop, and you're right at the Bodnar's 47ms. Running a timer in the Wii U's browser (see U54 post), I also found that the U pad appeared to beat the VT60 by 1-2 frames (which itself has up to 2 frames). I don't know how HDTVTest.uk came to ~24ms timer results on the VT/ZT. We could be seeing territorial differences here, later firmware revisions degrading lag performance, or sloppy testing methodology.


35ppSCr.jpg
Edited by Orta - 12/12/13 at 8:15pm
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