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What's the best $300 tweeter?

post #1 of 61
Thread Starter 
Another why DIY thread got me thinking again about sound quality vs. price/value and fun.

Assuming you don't care if you wind up with a 2 or 3-way speaker. What's best tweeter on the market? A high-end $300 tweeter or $120 worth of ND20, RS52, and a perfectionist crossover? Substitute your favorite low/mid level tweeter and midrange into the equation if it helps.
post #2 of 61
I have this tweeter and really like it. However, I'm not doing anything with it.
Fountek Neopro5i

That tweeter will work with a 3way, and possibly a 2way depending on the woofer. It doesn't have very good vertical dispersion, but horizontal is great!
post #3 of 61
Zaph and Linkwitz have a lot of objective testing on this subject.
Sort of came out Peerless, Seas, SanSpeak in that order. Neither was very enamored with ribbons. I have only tried cheap ones, and guess what? Cheap speakers of any kind are ... hold on now..... cheap. Then there is the camp who likes compression drivers and short horns, al-la Dr. Geddes. Very good theory if you can handle the packaging size.

My direct ( I'm cheap) experience has confirmed sub $50 tweeters don't cut it. I am not positive that there are a lot of gain in the 200 to 300 jump. But then again, 50-something hearing is not 20-something hearing.
post #4 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

Zaph and Linkwitz have a lot of objective testing on this subject.
Sort of came out Peerless, Seas, SanSpeak in that order. Neither was very enamored with ribbons. I have only tried cheap ones, and guess what? Cheap speakers of any kind are ... hold on now..... cheap. Then there is the camp who likes compression drivers and short horns, al-la Dr. Geddes. Very good theory if you can handle the packaging size.

My direct ( I'm cheap) experience has confirmed sub $50 tweeters don't cut it. I am not positive that there are a lot of gain in the 200 to 300 jump. But then again, 50-something hearing is not 20-something hearing.

The Seas 27TGIFWTHXYZ, Dayton RS, and Vifa XT25 (and to an extent the DQ25SC and DX25) are all sub 50 and perform very well, and you see them in all sorts of builds. Grated the aren't ScanSpeak performance, they do come within the "doesn't justify the hundreds of dollars extra" category, IMO.
post #5 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

I have this tweeter and really like it. However, I'm not doing anything with it.
Fountek Neopro5i

That tweeter will work with a 3way, and possibly a 2way depending on the woofer. It doesn't have very good vertical dispersion, but horizontal is great!

I have 5 of them (2 in use) and I love them although they dip on the vertical if you are off even 10 degrees.

On vertical axis they are simply the best tweeter I have heard for under $300....The RAAL ribbons are better but cost more money.

Ribbons are total different then domes .....zero shimmer or distortion is something most people are not use to. I own the SB29 domes too....they get rave reviews and they are nice but not as good as my ribbons.



Waveguides designs are the top choices now

Also, it matters if its a 2way or a 3way very few tweeters work well enough down low in a 2way. If it has to be a two way then I would suggest compression drivers and a waveguide....Follow my thread for that info.


btw, I have 3 Neopro5i that I will sell at a GOOD discount!!
post #6 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

Zaph and Linkwitz have a lot of objective testing on this subject.
Sort of came out Peerless, Seas, SanSpeak in that order. Neither was very enamored with ribbons. I have only tried cheap ones, and guess what? Cheap speakers of any kind are ... hold on now..... cheap. Then there is the camp who likes compression drivers and short horns, al-la Dr. Geddes. Very good theory if you can handle the packaging size.

My direct ( I'm cheap) experience has confirmed sub $50 tweeters don't cut it. I am not positive that there are a lot of gain in the 200 to 300 jump. But then again, 50-something hearing is not 20-something hearing.

Zaph never tested the higher end Ribbons like the Neopro5i or RAAL...they are in a different league then the ones he tested.

btw, the SB29 is an impressive Dome so is the X25 and the Peerless dome (Can not remember the number) used in dlneubec's build. All are under $100 and all get my pick over the other tweeters.
post #7 of 61
What is the best $100,000 car?

Your likely to get a lot of opinions based upon a lot of people with different priorities.

I'd ignore price and look at what you need first. Once you figure out what the design has to do, then look at what is available. Price won't necessarily correlate with what will do the best job.
post #8 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

What is the best $100,000 car?

Your likely to get a lot of opinions based upon a lot of people with different priorities.

I'd ignore price and look at what you need first. Once you figure out what the design has to do, then look at what is available. Price won't necessarily correlate with what will do the best job.

Kevin is right and its been posted many times that the crossover and the design of the speaker is far more important the the price tag of any individual driver.
post #9 of 61
That's true. JonMarsh uses the Vifa D26 in his 3 way w-m/t-w. It may only be a $30 tweeter, but in the range that it's used in, you could spend 2-3x more money and still not beat it's performance.
post #10 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poorboy_Mike View Post

That's true. JonMarsh uses the Vifa D26 in his 3 way w-m/t-w. It may only be a $30 tweeter, but in the range that it's used in, you could spend 2-3x more money and still not beat it's performance.

You also have to clarify what performance category is important. Non-linear distortion, linear distortion, dispersion characteristics etc.. ect... You also have to ask those questions based upon the frequency range the device needs to play within and the physical design of the enclosure that you intend to use.

Obviously, if your designing a 3-way, the tweeter doesn't need to play as low. A tweeter that may be the best choice in a 3-way may be totally unsuitable for a 2-way. There isn't a "better" because it depends upon the context of how it is going to be used. It is like asking which is better, a screwdriver or a hammer? The answer depends upon your intended use and the other design choices.
post #11 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJTEX View Post

Another why DIY thread got me thinking again about sound quality vs. price/value and fun.

Assuming you don't care if you wind up with a 2 or 3-way speaker. What's best tweeter on the market? A high-end $300 tweeter or $120 worth of ND20, RS52, and a perfectionist crossover? Substitute your favorite low/mid level tweeter and midrange into the equation if it helps.

The one you don't buy as after $100 it becomes a case of diminishing returns IMO. You do get an added bonus for spending that kind of cash on a tweeter though....a free lifetime membership to the audiofool club! I hear they have a timeshare for members somewhere in Costa Rica that has an on-site Ear spa complete with lobe massages and herbal wax removal. Supposed to extend the hearing to 50khz or so.
post #12 of 61
"The one you don't buy as after $100 it becomes a case of diminishing returns IMO. You do get an added bonus for spending that kind of cash on a tweeter though....a free lifetime membership to the audiofool club!"

depends on what you are calling a tweeter.

bms 4555 doesn't exactly fall into audio fool land even though it sells for over $100 and then you need a good horn for it (such as the JBL PT-F95HF), which will cost another hundred.

http://www.bmspro.info/4555.bms_4555...essionn.0.html

but, when you are finished, you will have something rare indeed.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ad.php?t=17069

post #13 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

The one you don't buy as after $100 it becomes a case of diminishing returns IMO. You do get an added bonus for spending that kind of cash on a tweeter though....a free lifetime membership to the audiofool club! I hear they have a timeshare for members somewhere in Costa Rica that has an on-site Ear spa complete with lobe massages and herbal wax removal. Supposed to extend the hearing to 50khz or so.

Ouch, I guess some people are having a little money issue these days

There is a difference between the RAAL and any dome sub $100 tweeter. My $300 Neopro5i is simply unmatched by all your sub $100 choices for my requirements and my measurements. Augerpro has measured the sub $100 Compression drivers vs the those over $100 and the proof is in the measurements.

Although if you have not been to Costa Rica then you have no idea what you are missing
post #14 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Ouch, I guess some people are having a little money issue these days

There is a difference between the RAAL and any dome sub $100 tweeter. My $300 Neopro5i is simply unmatched by all your sub $100 choices for my requirements and my measurements. Augerpro has measured the sub $100 Compression drivers vs the those over $100 and the proof is in the measurements.

Although if you have not been to Costa Rica then you have no idea what you are missing

Show me the Money! I'm gonna call you out on this Penn. There's no way you can justify your last statement. Post all the measurments you like and the relative opinions and such but at the end of day if you set up your own double blind test you'd hate yourself for it...unless of course you've been to the Spa?
post #15 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poorboy_Mike View Post

That's true. JonMarsh uses the Vifa D26 in his 3 way w-m/t-w. It may only be a $30 tweeter, but in the range that it's used in, you could spend 2-3x more money and still not beat it's performance.

That's exactly the point I was pondering. As tweeter price increases so does usable bandwidth, namely in how low and loud the tweeter can perform properly. At least that's the trend and opposed to many things audio, there is a real correlation at work. That's great if one wants to implement a high performance 2-way, especially with a large woofer.

But what if you are free to build anything you want to meet the same perfectionist performance goals?

In that case, doesn't a 3-way make more sense because you can use much cheaper drivers that perform the same or even better over their more limited design frequency range? A good tweeter and midrange, even with the required high-end crossover parts, tends to cost much less than an "ultimate" class tweeter alone.

If this is true, what would perform better considering just midrange and up? A high end ($300) tweeter or a good midrange/tweeter combination at less than half the price?
post #16 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Show me the Money! I'm gonna call you out on this Penn. There's no way you can justify your last statement. Post all the measurments you like and the relative opinions and such but at the end of day if you set up your own double blind test you'd hate yourself for it...unless of course you've been to the Spa?

Never disagreed with any DBT for any normal situation....you should already know that I understand DBTs are not going to show much difference. I have done many over the years with amps, AVRs, etc. I love showing friends what a $5K setup sounds like next to a $500 setup


But your sub $100 choices do not do 120dBs! Few of those sub $100 Dome can work properly in a two way either. I know that for a fact and that was my point of above with the post saying "My Requirements". I also care about measurements as much as I do sound. You may just want to care about how it sounds but I like to know things have superior measurements to back them up. Its part of my audio hobby to care about the meausrements.

Besides that name good Compression drivers under $100....not everyone thinks all we ever need are dome tweeters. There are applications and needs that are different then your needs.

Other then getting into debates about measurements, to say someone like me, Augerpro or Exojam (just off the top of my head the DIYers that own tweeter that cost more then $100) are just audiofools is a HUGE leap and really a surprising post from you. Again, I would love to be in Costa Rica at any time...you have to go there to understand what Im saying though
post #17 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJTEX View Post

That's exactly the point I was pondering. As tweeter price increases so does usable bandwidth, namely in how low and loud the tweeter can perform properly. At least that's the trend and opposed to many things audio, there is a real correlation at work. That's great if one wants to implement a high performance 2-way, especially with a large woofer.

But what if you are free to build anything you want to meet the same perfectionist performance goals?

In that case, doesn't a 3-way make more sense because you can use much cheaper drivers that perform the same or even better over their more limited design frequency range? A good tweeter and midrange, even with the required high-end crossover parts, tends to cost much less than an "ultimate" class tweeter alone.

If this is true, what would perform better considering just midrange and up? A high end ($300) tweeter or a good midrange/tweeter combination at less than half the price?

You need to define your project goals first.
post #18 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

What is the best $100,000 car?

Your likely to get a lot of opinions based upon a lot of people with different priorities.

I'd ignore price and look at what you need first. Once you figure out what the design has to do, then look at what is available. Price won't necessarily correlate with what will do the best job.

theoretically, this post should have ended this thread.

there is no "best"...only different levels of performance across different dimensions. once the performance dimensions are specified, then, and only then, can a good, better, best set of drivers be determined.

for some, a shelby 427 cobra replica with additional performance upgrades is the ultimate $100k car. for others, a mercedes s-class with a few luxury tweaks, is what they had in mind.

totally different cars. totally different designs. each worth $100k to many, many folks.

kevin (and penn) is right. we need to start with goals before getting into the "x vs. y" arguments.
post #19 of 61
Are you talking about the Peerless 810921 HDS tweeter ($78) Penn?

Zaph said it was up there with the best of Scan Speak and personally I'd love to get some opinions on it as it's the one I've been thinking about for when I attempt my first 3-way.

As far as cars go I'd have to vote for the 4.2L Audi R8 at $110k.
post #20 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Regent View Post

Are you talking about the Peerless 810921 HDS tweeter ($78) Penn?

Zaph said it was up there with the best of Scan Speak and personally I'd love to get some opinions on it as it's the one I've been thinking about for when I attempt my first 3-way.

As far as cars go I'd have to vote for the 4.2L Audi R8 at $110k.

Yeah, I believe that is the one that Dan used in his build.

That one and the SB29 are the two that I think have great promise and great value depending on your goals.
post #21 of 61
The 810921 is subjectively one of the best domes I've heard. I love mine.
post #22 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Regent View Post

As far as cars go I'd have to vote for the 4.2L Audi R8 at $110k.

dodge vipers, corvette zr1's, m3 turbo's, 911 carrera's, big mercedes bimmers and audis--heck some folks might even prefer monster miatas or vintage mustangs with big blowers and slicks, and yes, some might even prefer a tesla (holy s!, did i say that?). room for everybody here. same in audio.
post #23 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You need to define your project goals first.

Goals:
- Music only
- Overall speaker size max 42"' h (tweeter center) x 16" W (tower or stand mount)
- placement up to 3' from 14' W rear wall
- 23' L x 14' W x 9' H very slightly live, quiet room
- dedicated, seated, listening position 9' to 12' from speakers
- maybe the rare 110db peak (at seating position)
- no loud party use, no one else will be allowed to touch them, ever!
- clean, flat, clinical sound
- Small Sub(s) only if needed, can't put one/them centered between speakers

What's best, 2-way with expensive drivers or 3-way with good drivers?
post #24 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJTEX View Post

Goals:
- Music only
- Overall speaker size max 42"' h (tweeter center) x 16" W (tower or stand mount)
- placement up to 3' from 14' W rear wall
- 23' L x 14' W x 9' H very slightly live, quiet room
- dedicated, seated, listening position 9' to 12' from speakers
- maybe the rare 110db peak (at seating position)
- no loud party use, no one else will be allowed to touch them, ever!
- clean, flat, clinical sound
- Small Sub(s) only if needed, can't put one/them centered between speakers

What's best, 2-way with expensive drivers or 3-way with good drivers?

you might want to drop that into a new thread--"help me build a system--specs included", probably get a boatload more replies than you will in this thread. just a thought. you might raise your peak to 115db for the bass, and lower the mid-high db peak to 105db. hey, that would put you right on the thx spec! ;-) lots of systems that can meet your goals.
post #25 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by augerpro View Post

The 810921 is subjectively one of the best domes I've heard. I love mine.

It is what I use in the Kepler. I'm giving the Seas DXT a try and I'll see how that compares.
post #26 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJTEX View Post

Goals:
- Music only
- Overall speaker size max 42"' h (tweeter center) x 16" W (tower or stand mount)
- placement up to 3' from 14' W rear wall
- 23' L x 14' W x 9' H very slightly live, quiet room
- dedicated, seated, listening position 9' to 12' from speakers
- maybe the rare 110db peak (at seating position)
- no loud party use, no one else will be allowed to touch them, ever!
- clean, flat, clinical sound
- Small Sub(s) only if needed, can't put one/them centered between speakers

What's best, 2-way with expensive drivers or 3-way with good drivers?

Budget?
post #27 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

you might want to drop that into a new thread--"help me build a system--specs included", probably get a boatload more replies than you will in this thread. just a thought. you might raise your peak to 115db for the bass, and lower the mid-high db peak to 105db. hey, that would put you right on the thx spec! ;-) lots of systems that can meet your goals.

I guess I'm looking at this a little differently, that's why I started out vague. For this next project I'm already positive that with the space I have, I should be able to cover the low end in my room just fine with 8" drivers. That criteria provides the choice of a 2-way or a 3-way design for the overall implementation. Going the 2-way route is only possible with high quality drivers. A 3-way design would open up the possibility of using average drivers that so far seem to provide a better value even with the added driver and crossover parts count. Note that I'm note seeking to reproduce massive SPL.

That's why I sort of boiled down the question into "is a high quality tweeter or an average quality midrage/tweeter pair better for covering the same frequency range". From what I can tell from published measurements, the final Specs would appear to be very similar.

Are there any sound quality advatages that I have overlooked with this 2- way 3-way comparison?
post #28 of 61
Quote:


Going the 2-way route is only possible with high quality drivers. A 3-way design would open up the possibility of using average drivers that so far seem to provide a better value even with the added driver and crossover parts count. Note that I'm note seeking to reproduce massive SPL.

Not exactly, you can go 2-way route with many levels of drivers. There are cheaper but great coaxial drivers that work well (ie Seaton Sparks)

The cost of the driver is not that important, its the design of the speaker/crossovers around selected drivers that matters more.

Quote:


is a high quality tweeter or an average quality midrage/tweeter pair better for covering the same frequency range

This question depends more on the LF driver used to cover the low end. If you can find something that does 60Hz to 3Hz very well then you have greate LF driver. The problem is most LF drivers do not do well past 2KHz without starting to beam and that is why 3-ways are easier becaue then you can have a cheaper tweeter in a comfortable range performing as good as any expensive tweeter, you can have a cheaper mid range/woofer combo handling everything else.

I have been search for the best 2-way solution for over two years now I also had High SPL low distortion requirments. Only compression drivers/waveguides can do below 2KHz producing SPL without distrotion. My Neopro5i ribbons or the RAAL ribbons can be crossed over @ 1800Hz too so I could build a TD12M/Neopro5i design if I wanted too but I added a mid range driver to help out.

It seems everyone wants that golden dome that can do 115dB @ 1500Hz without distortion The lowest Dome measurement I have seen that performs well is the SB29 (research dome meaurements on zaphaudio.com)
post #29 of 61
I'm not really following all this talk about having to spend big bucks for a suitable 2-way tweeter... Vifa DX25, Seas 27TDFC, Seas 27TBFCG, Seas 29TFFW, Seas 29TAFW, Dayton RS28A4, SB Acoustics SB29RDC, Seas 27TBCDGB-DXT, and Peerless HDS 810921 among others are all sub $100 and can easily handle sub 2Khz crossovers.
post #30 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

I'm not really following all this talk about having to spend big bucks for a suitable 2-way tweeter... Vifa DX25, Seas 27TDFC, Seas 27TBFCG, Seas 29TFFW, Seas 29TAFW, Dayton RS28A4, SB Acoustics SB29RDC, Seas 27TBCDGB-DXT, and Peerless HDS 810921 among others are all sub $100 and can easily handle sub 2Khz crossovers.

not really that easily most are far better suited for crossovers above 2KHz. Out of all the measurements I only see the SB29 playing nice below 2KHz. Even if its not a big issue to let them crossover at 1800Hz what single LF drivers do 60Hz to 2KHz well enough to call the speaker high end?
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