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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 348

post #10411 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt L View Post

I'm well aware of the Panny flaws, yet I recommend it to all my family and friends. The rising black levels area minor thing to 90% of the population, and I feel Panny is the best performing unit, other than that, on the market. Thing is everyone I talked up the Pannys too bought one, and they are very happy with them.

Yes, I think Panasonic screwed up bad and should have done something about it, but I'm not going to go with what i consider a second rate set just because of this one issue. If I was in the market for a plasma, Panasonic would be at the top of my list - flaws and all.

What makes the Samsung "second rate"?
post #10412 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Even if they don't solve this problem (and I doubt they have as d-nice has stated at least once that they use real black drive still) they are still very good sets and arguably still better than Samsungs best offering. No one is a dumb ass or idiot for pre-ordering one of these TVs, especially if they are working with a reputable dealer. One reputable dealer is replacing his Pio 141 with the 65 VT30 for some of the reasons already mentioned. I have a feeling he was in a good position to compare all the 2011 sets at CES this year.

What makes the Samsung better than the Panasonic? Glare filter? By the way, the panels shown were probably not production panels. The Panasonic insider who was given the opportunity to take one home as a trial even stated it wasn't a production panel. So until the production panels are tested and compared, it is still an unknown.
post #10413 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post

So we can agree in that the high-end Panasonic plasmas are reference televisions until the rising blacks problem starts to happen.

WHAT?????? Are you serious?
How make a statement like that about a product that hasn't even been released yet, let alone tested? The only thing I can agree about your statement is that it's absurd.
post #10414 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

D-Nice has already stated that Samsung will be better in all areas other than initial black levels

and the key word is "initial"...meaning once the blacks finish rising, the Panny's will not even be better in that area...so the real question then becomes what exactly is Panasonic better at then Samsung?
post #10415 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

I ask because you are still quite satisifed with your TV even though the mll is 0.03ftl. I was curious to your viewing environmet since that has plays an important factor as to how much the mll rise is noticed. I think its great that you are still quite satisfied with your tv despite the mll reading and that you watch mostly in the dark where the rise would me noticed the most.

Well to be clear, and completely honest, even though I said I cannot remember it looking much better than it does now when it was new I do notice a slight difference in blacks but only in scenes that are very dark. When I see this it does take me out of the experience for a moment and I start thinking about this topic again. But I would say 95% of time I don't notice or think about the problem.
post #10416 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

and the key word is "initial"...meaning once the blacks finish rising, the Panny's will not even be better in that area...so the real question then becomes what exactly is Panasonic better at then Samsung?

You seem to fail to understand that picture quality is a very subjective evaluation where what a meter reports does not always equate to the eyeball test results. D-nice is a very well respected professional calibrator but his opinions are still opinions. The vt25 still came out as the overall #1 tv at the VE shootout which consisted of a panel of video experts.

Ketzmeir also said that even after his v25 took the big MLL bump to .009 that it was still the best looking tv of 2010 so I am afraid that there are multiple opinions on the matter and it is not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

The D8000 might very well give panasonic a run for the money this year or even have slightly better PQ. I personally think the aesthetics are horrible, especially that ugly stand and silver bezel. D7000 has lower end filter, etc.

For me this tv is not a huge purchase. I have pre ordered and take the risk that the product I am getting might not be perfect. But it still looks like the best fit for me for a number of reasons. If it shows up and I hate it or there is some fatal flaw then I will work it out with the dealer or take my lumps.

You guys act like this stuff is life or death. It's not.
post #10417 of 11163
Samsungs silver legged stand looks like legs from a frog.

The legs would look better black.......IMO chrome just doesn't fit into the TV atmosphere unless you like bling.


post #10418 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

WHAT?????? Are you serious?
How make a statement like that about a product that hasn't even been released yet, let alone tested? The only thing I can agree about your statement is that it's absurd.

Panasonic has not solved the rising blacks problem.

I was talking about the released Panasonic plasmas that have risen blacks; they are reference level televisions until the rising blacks problem surfaces. Going from 0,010 to 0,030 is not reference level.

Who are you agreeing with?
post #10419 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post

Panasonic has not solved the rising blacks problem.

I was talking about the released Panasonic plasmas that have risen blacks; they are reference level televisions until the rising blacks problem surfaces. Going from 0,010 to 0,030 is not reference level.

Who are you agreeing with?

A display that hasn't been released, tested and found to be superior to all others cannot be considered a reference display to which all others are to be compared.
post #10420 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

A display that hasn't been released, tested and found to be superior to all others cannot be considered a reference display to which all others are to be compared.

Actually, although you are correct from a purely logical standpoint I have to disagree.

What it boils down to is, do you believe the VT25 is reference level (or close to it) and do you believe that the VT30 is better than the VT25.

It is highly unlikely that the VT30 will be equal to or worse than the VT25. I can't think of a time when a PDP manufacturer has released a new product with new panel technology and it has been worse than the predecessor.

So, if the VT25 is reference level (or close to it) then it stands likely that the VT30 will prove to be reference level as well.

But yes, technically you can't PROVE this until objective measurements are made.

Here is my prediction for the next six months;

1. VT30 is released to rave reviews.

2. Immediately the "black rise" pundits will cry foul indicating that the VT30 final MLL will not be known for many months.

3. VE shootout happens for 2011 and VT30 gets good results (even if Panasonic does not take the cake again this year).

4. Pundits again cry foul that we don't know true final MLL of the set.

5. CNET publishes results showing that while MLL rise is still present in VT30 line, it is reduced somewhat from previous year, so that voltage spreads are even more gradual and final rise is less than it was last year.

6. Debate continues to rage on over this final future MLL of VT30 and other sets that after this rise will have a slightly better MLL.

7. Cycle starts again for 2012 sets next fall with new speculation about whether Panasonic have "fixed this" for those sets.

Anyways, that's just my prediction of the next 6 months.

P.S.;

8. Kuro fans continue to moan about the lack of a quality replacement for their 8, 9 and 9.5G Kuro sets, even while everyone else enjoys newer sets with larger screens, 3D, newer features, better filter technology, etc.
post #10421 of 11163
You forgot one.

"Panasonic will state that the PDP is operating as designed"

Guys, this really is water under the bridge now. It is what it is and it ain't going change one bit. Nobody besides some of us cares anyway.
post #10422 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

You seem to fail to understand that picture quality is a very subjective evaluation where what a meter reports does not always equate to the eyeball test results. D-nice is a very well respected professional calibrator but his opinions are still opinions. The vt25 still came out as the overall #1 tv at the VE shootout which consisted of a panel of video experts.

Ketzmeir also said that even after his v25 took the big MLL bump to .009 that it was still the best looking tv of 2010 so I am afraid that there are multiple opinions on the matter and it is not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

The D8000 might very well give panasonic a run for the money this year or even have slightly better PQ. I personally think the aesthetics are horrible, especially that ugly stand and silver bezel. D7000 has lower end filter, etc.

For me this tv is not a huge purchase. I have pre ordered and take the risk that the product I am getting might not be perfect. But it still looks like the best fit for me for a number of reasons. If it shows up and I hate it or there is some fatal flaw then I will work it out with the dealer or take my lumps.

You guys act like this stuff is life or death. It's not.

so now you say that D-Nice's opinions are just his opinions and should not hold much weight...but then in the next sentence you quote Katzmaier ...interesting how the Panny folks used to rever D-Nice but lately his 'opinions' as you now call them hold less weight because he is saying better things about Samsung...by the way you're wrong when saying that the D7000 has a lower end filter...the D8000 uses the exact same filter as the D7000 (the 2010 C8000 was the one with the better filter versus the C7000)

I think that you starting to have doubts about Panny...I think that you are starting to question your decision and are wavering on wheter or not the VT30 was the best choice...I can see it in your posts...
post #10423 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post

So we can agree in that the high-end Panasonic plasmas are reference televisions until the rising blacks problem starts to happen.

I don't see the need of you to tell me that the people that pre-order the newer Panasonic plasmas aren't idiots, because I have never talked about them.

No they are not. They are good but m not even close to reference.
post #10424 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

so now you say that D-Nice's opinions are just his opinions and should not hold much weight...but then in the next sentence you quote Katzmaier ...interesting how the Panny folks used to rever D-Nice but lately his 'opinions' as you now call them hold less weight because he is saying better things about Samsung...by the way you're wrong when saying that the D7000 has a lower end filter...the D8000 uses the exact same filter as the D7000 (the 2010 C8000 was the one with the better filter versus the C7000)

I think that you starting to have doubts about Panny...I think that you are starting to question your decision and are wavering on wheter or not the VT30 was the best choice...I can see it in your posts...

I actually saw several pages that reference the D8000 as having "real black filter" as a step up feature over the D7000. Maybe this info has in fact changed. Unlike you, I don't get emotional about a TV.

You seriously give yourself way too much credit as far as your ability to influence peoples decision making. The one being adversarial here is you. After claiming you are considering the Panasonic sets, you pop into every thread you possibly can railing on and on about black level rise, that almost no one else cares about.... and insist that you won't buy the TV if this horrible glaring flaw is not remedied. Panasonic meanwhile laughs because they are selling huge amounts of PDP panels and of course they continue to improve their technology every year as evidenced by the very measurable and very noticeable improvements in VT25 over V10.

Anyone who wants to understand your position merely has to note your repeated disparaging references to "panny folks" (so if VT30 is best TV of 2011 and you order one do you become a hated Panny folk? and this constant bashing and "us" vs "them" mentality that comes through in all of your posts.

I already striked the D8000 off of my list when I saw how hideous it looks. Unless in person it looks amazingly better, that is one ugly TV (my opinion).

D7000 looks pretty good, if a touch on the boring side.

And no, I don't revere D-Nice. He's just a calibrator with an opinion, just like many other calibrators, quite a few of whom still say that the VT25 was the best TV last year you could buy new in the box.
post #10425 of 11163
you're the one getting way too emotional...'Panny folk' is an insult?...Panny folks translates to folks or people who buy Panasonic products...you keep trying to twist my words into something else which will paint me in a negative light...my words speak for themselves

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

black level rise, that almost no one else cares about...

lol...lol...rotfl...even Panny cares about it as every year they keep refining the time period between each mll rise

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

you won't buy the TV if this horrible glaring flaw is not remedied

you are correct on this...although I would also buy one if they lowered the initial black level to around .001 because then even after it triples it will still be around .003...that's something I might be able to live with

now you are comparing the V10 to the VT25...I thought we were discussing the VT30?...enjoy your VT30...if the tripling of black levels don't bother you then hey...myself I would like for my TV to display the same black level in 5-7 years...as black level affects the entire image quality of the set and not only 'blacks' per say... the deeper and truer blacks are perceived to be by the viewer, the better colors will look next to it
post #10426 of 11163
^I think what you've encountered is the throwaway mentality to which many Americans have succumbed ("I can just buy the latest and greatest in 5 years!"), and Panasonic is guilty for intentionally designing sets with the "feature" that encourages frequent upgrading. Pioneer had the right idea...but the cheap, throwaway culture made sure their Kuro project was doomed to fail (as did their management, but that's a different story).
post #10427 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

you're the one getting way too emotional...'Panny folk' is an insult?...Panny folks translates to folks or people who buy Panasonic products...you keep trying to twist my words into something else which will paint me in a negative light...my words speak for themselves



lol...lol...rotfl...even Panny cares about it as every year they keep refining the time period between each mll rise



you are correct on this...although I would also buy one if they lowered the initial black level to around .001 because then even after it triples it will still be around .003...that's something I might be able to live with

now you are comparing the V10 to the VT25...I thought we were discussing the VT30?...enjoy your VT30...if the tripling of black levels don't bother you then hey...myself I would like for my TV to display the same black level in 5-7 years...as black level affects the entire image quality of the set and not only 'blacks' per say... the deeper and truer blacks are perceived to be by the viewer, the better colors will look next to it

You go on and on about "tripling" blacks on the VT25. What about the triple black on the 8000 series for 24P content that takes the MLL up to .024? Last time I checked, cinema fans want good 24P reproduction without the MLL tripling from what the set does with a 60fps source.

What about the lower motion resolution and other motion artifact issues that Samsung had in 2010? What about the greater input lag? What about increased buzzing?

All of these TVs have their flaws, regardless of manufacturer. Seeing as you're out on a one man crusade to warn everyone against buying a Panasonic TV, because of the flaws it has, you should spend equal time in the Samsung thread warning everyone about cinemasmooth problems, excessive buzzing, sub-standard motion resolution, etc.

Or maybe you should go into the LG thread and talk about countering problems with their local dimming sets, blooming problems, color accuracy issues, poor motion resolution, etc.

It sounds to me, that you are trying very hard to talk yourself out of the Panasonic set because of this one issue. Make sure that you aren't trading that potential problem for one from another manufacturer that is worse.
post #10428 of 11163
Well, one particularity about Samsung's Cinema Smooth issue is WYSIWYG. ;-) Panasonic's defect is one that doesn't manifest until later into ownership.
post #10429 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Well, one particularity about Samsung's Cinema Smooth issue is WYSIWYG. ;-) Panasonic's defect is one that doesn't manifest until later into ownership.

That is true. However it is rather unlikely that anyone who hangs out at the AVS PDP forum is unaware of the problems with any manufacturers products at this point. They get beaten to death.
post #10430 of 11163
My problem withWhat panasonic is doing is that jsp doesn't know what is going to happen with these sets and is buying them because the sales guy says that they have the best picture and black level. Based on what I've read panasonic has not had the best black levels for the past two years. Those of us that frequent avs know all about it and can make an informed decision.
post #10431 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

You go on and on about "tripling" blacks on the VT25. What about the triple black on the 8000 series for 24P content that takes the MLL up to .024? Last time I checked, cinema fans want good 24P reproduction without the MLL tripling from what the set does with a 60fps source.

What about the lower motion resolution and other motion artifact issues that Samsung had in 2010? What about the greater input lag? What about increased buzzing?

All of these TVs have their flaws, regardless of manufacturer. Seeing as you're out on a one man crusade to warn everyone against buying a Panasonic TV, because of the flaws it has, you should spend equal time in the Samsung thread warning everyone about cinemasmooth problems, excessive buzzing, sub-standard motion resolution, etc.

Or maybe you should go into the LG thread and talk about countering problems with their local dimming sets, blooming problems, color accuracy issues, poor motion resolution, etc.

It sounds to me, that you are trying very hard to talk yourself out of the Panasonic set because of this one issue. Make sure that you aren't trading that potential problem for one from another manufacturer that is worse.

I've discussed the Samsung and LG issues in numerous posts...go into my post history and see...the Cinema Smooth bug is a deal breaker for me in the same way the mll rise is for Panny...the difference is that Samsung and LG are actually trying to fix their issues and are proactive...this year Samsung claims to have fixed the 24p Cinema Smooth bug...LG claims to have fixed or substantially improved the banding on their sets with the addition of their Nano-tech

interesting that you care so much about tripling blacks but only when it doesn't concern Panasonic lol

plus Samsung claims to have lowered blacks levels to a STABLE .004 with the D8000 series...meaning the same levels as a new VT25 with the additional bonus of no mll rise...meanwhile what do we get from Panny?...silence or 'no comment' when asked about rising/floating blacks...then Panny goes and improves the brightness in ambient light conditions of their VT30 along with better 3D as their primary areas of improvement in 2011...all well and good but what about the issues that people are most complaining about?...they don't care

they already had the best 3D image quality yet they focused on that more then the mll rise issue...they could be so much better if they wanted to be but their pride and arrogance stand in the way...Samsung and LG are making huge strides from year-to-year and are catching up to and surpassing Panny...Panny will probably never fix their plasma issues and consumers will have to wait for their OLED line for the optimal TV

if Samsung's 2011 sets are as good as advertised then this will be the year that Samsung becomes the leader in plasma (maybe not in sales but in reputation)
post #10432 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post

Panasonic has not solved the rising blacks problem.

I was talking about the released Panasonic plasmas that have risen blacks; they are reference level televisions until the rising blacks problem surfaces. Going from 0,010 to 0,030 is not reference level.

Who are you agreeing with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

A display that hasn't been released, tested and found to be superior to all others cannot be considered a reference display to which all others are to be compared.

As you can clearly see in my last post, I'm not talking about the unreleased Panasonic VT30 plasma.
post #10433 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

You go on and on about "tripling" blacks on the VT25. What about the triple black on the 8000 series for 24P content that takes the MLL up to .024?

They don't triple like the Pannys, they increase from 0.008ftL to ~0.013ftL (measured by myself and others on the 58"). This is less than doubling of black level. Significant, yes, but not disasterous. Also, the user has the option of disabling 24p Cinema Smooth and restoring the original black level at their discretion. On the Pannys you have no choice, it will just keep getting worse over time, and you don't know when it will stop. Panny say it stops at 0.01ftL , but there are 2009 owners now reporting 0.03ftL...who knows where it will actually stop. Also the Panasonics have a floating black level, Samsung does not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

What about the lower motion resolution and other motion artifact issues that Samsung had in 2010?

C7000/8000 has 1080p motion resolution same as Panny (source: hdguru.com, and testing it myself with 60p content). As far as motion artefacts go, there are none. The Samsung is much superior in this regard as there is no banding or false contouring even under motion. It can display a moving gray ramp pattern (gradient) without any banding at all (source: internal test pattern on 58C7000 "scrolling bar"). Panasonic cannot do this and have significant banding with the same pattern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

What about the greater input lag?

Samsung's actually have less input lag once you enable game mode (13ms) (source: plasma input lag thread, dday.it test, playing games on it myself).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

What about increased buzzing?

This is true, although the Panasonics have gotten louder too due to the removal of the front glass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

All of these TVs have their flaws, regardless of manufacturer.

True, but imo the Pannys flaws for 2010 were much worse than Samsungs.
post #10434 of 11163
Nobody talks about the poor gamma on Panny plasmas. Even the models with Custom mode and PRO settings the gamma barely reaches 2.0 and then nosedives to 1.0 at about 80 stimuli and ends up about .7 at 100 stimuli. Even the THX modes can't reach 2.2. The S2 cannot reach more than 1.95 gamma. Gamma is what give the depth and realism to a display. What is the point of having selectable gamma in the custom pro settings mode when it doesn't do anything.
post #10435 of 11163
+1 for what Don just said about gamma.

Larry
post #10436 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneumatic View Post


They don't triple like the Pannys, they increase from 0.008ftL to ~0.013ftL (measured by myself and others on the 58"). This is less than doubling of black level. Significant, yes, but not disasterous. Also, the user has the option of disabling 24p Cinema Smooth and restoring the original black level at their discretion. On the Pannys you have no choice, it will just keep getting worse over time, and you don't know when it will stop. Panny say it stops at 0.01ftL , but there are 2009 owners now reporting 0.03ftL...who knows where it will actually stop. Also the Panasonics have a floating black level, Samsung does not.

C7000/8000 has 1080p motion resolution same as Panny (source: hdguru.com, and testing it myself with 60p content). As far as motion artefacts go, there are none. The Samsung is much superior in this regard as there is no banding or false contouring even under motion. It can display a moving gray ramp pattern (gradient) without any banding at all (source: internal test pattern on 58C7000 "scrolling bar"). Panasonic cannot do this and have significant banding with the same pattern.

Samsung's actually have less input lag once you enable game mode (13ms) (source: plasma input lag thread, dday.it test, playing games on it myself).

This is true, although the Panasonics have gotten louder too due to the removal of the front glass.

True, but imo the Pannys flaws for 2010 were much worse than Samsungs.

Then why did panny(vt25) win best tv in 2010 by the pro's? Not starting an argument but what did they see that made them come to that conclusion.
post #10437 of 11163
Honestly this black level issue is beaten to death. Outside of this forum no one cares. I recommended a.bunch of people panny plasmas and they all are happy with there sets. Most people would be happy with all 3 brands as they all perform pretty well. The only complaint i have heard outside of this forum was the sammy buzzing.
post #10438 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

Then why did panny(vt25) win best tv in 2010 by the pro's? Not starting an argument but what did they see that made them come to that conclusion.

This is why:
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Sorry, per my score card, the VT25 was not the winner. Per my card it was right there with the LX9500. You can have Robert pull my card for verification.

I, as well as others, have clearly stated in the past that the VT25 won the shootout because it had a higher APB compared to all other displays there. That can be verified via my posts from that time period.

I know exactly who you are now, including how to are related to Panasonic Why don't you post some raw stats regarding sales that break out OEM vs Panasonic badged sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Correct. APB (Average Picture Brightness) was the factor.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1313293&page=2
post #10439 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

Then why did panny(vt25) win best tv in 2010 by the pro's? Not starting an argument but what did they see that made them come to that conclusion.

I think if you ask those pro's (D-Nice and Kevin Miller) they might actually tell you the C8000 has the better picture.
post #10440 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneumatic View Post

Also the Panasonics have a floating black level, Samsung does not.

Please note the following reviews:

Quote:
Originally Posted by VFR View Post

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...0110125978.htm
Quote:


We should also point out that the floating blacks are not specific to Panasonic: the last Samsung Plasma display we reviewed also showed this behaviour, albeit not during the same test scenes. For users who have perfectly consistent light output as a priority, we suggest looking at LCD televisions instead. Sadly, there is no perfect TV.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsu...0101130940.htm
Quote:


We also tested the Samsung PS50C6900 with our floating blacks revealing scene, from the Blu-ray Disc release of Se7en. It didn't reveal the issue here, but we did see the blacks rise in exactly the same fashion as on Panasonic's plasma displays with other content. Regardless, we feel that on both sets, it isn't a huge issue, and once again have to remind readers that this is much less noticeable than the auto-dimming that Samsung's LED-based LCD screens partake in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pneumatic View Post

The Samsung is much superior in this regard as there is no banding or false contouring even under motion. It can display a moving gray ramp pattern (gradient) without any banding at all (source: internal test pattern on 58C7000 "scrolling bar"). Panasonic cannot do this and have significant banding with the same pattern.

How can you possibly run Samsung's internal test patterns on a Panasonic?
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