Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 351

Ya, I have to wonder how all of these things mysteriously stack against Samsung and they are just getting robbed. Now I will grant that perhaps a two year old VT25 could not beat a 2 year old C8000 under similar testing conditions... but it seems to be a bit of a stretch that VT25 garnered awards and what not because Panasonic is buying off the CE press.

I don't believe that a rep would outright lie about a product feature...if they had not fixed the issue or the rep did not know he would have been instructed to give the standard 'No Comment' response or find some other way to sidestep the question without answering it directly...the fact that he said that 'yes the issue has been fixed' leads me to believe that it is in fact fixed

Somebody in the Samsung thread talked to them this week, and they said again that they fixed it.

So how is the hour count stored... I am really tempted to open the set up and see if there is a way to reset through hardware. I find it hard to believe that the MLL needs to be jacked up after ~300 hours. Alternatively, I would like to explore a resistor mod to pull the drive voltage down.

After months of waiting, I've found out that my connect no longer works for the company. In other words, the a-board-reset operation which would force temporary restoration of black levels on these panels has come to a complete stop. I was unable to find out how to do this. Sadly. If there's anyone else who ever figures this out, let us know. It involves connecting a computer to the tv and sending it various commands, perhaps if only one.

I saw this quote from HDGuru about the rising/floating blacks:

"The 2009 V series had rising minimum black levels confirmed by tests performed by CNet’s David Katzmaier A small number of persons on some TV forums claim “floating blacks” occur at times on earlier Panasonic plasmas during changes of average picture brightness levels. HD Guru has not seen this on any Panasonic plasma tested to date.

Due to pending litigation, Panasonic US would not comment on these topics, however, in a meeting last week of European journalists with Panasonic executives, Andrew Everard of whathifi.com (link) writes Panasonic has eliminated the issue with their 2011 models. Here is the quote ” Oh and by the way – and for those who obsessively niggle at these things on forums worldwide – both the rising and floating black problems have been addressed, and are sorted in 2011 models. There’s now no black level shift to compensate for stabilising brightness levels after initial use…”"



I don't know much about this website. Is this website, and this Andrew Everard guy trustworthy?

The question is whether Panasonic is trustworthy

So 2010 models are broken too...

yes.

That's pretty remarkable - that they haven't seen it, I mean. I've observed the floating blacks effect on four different PX70s, a PX80, an S10 (I think it was called) and a G20. In other words, every single Panasonic plasma I've had the opportunity to test.

My S1 does not have floating blacks in any of the Picture modes, however, my S2 has them on all picture modes.

That is because the 2009 models didnt have floating blacks. They were there is 08, and returned in 2010.

Duh...the blacks had not yet risen. The Panasonc does have better high-APL whites than the Samsung, too. After the blacks triple it should not have won. People place too much emphasis on those shootouts in NY. They are not the definitive word on anything. The shootout is not very thorough and comprehensive, and it is mostly all about marketing and selling TV's.

Not enough emphasis on bright room performance, not enough emphasis on processing (where the Panny lags far behind Samsung). Just a few of the same old boring test patterns, quickly skimmed through.

The shootout is basically designed to play to the strengths of the Panasonic. 1080p24 Blu ray in the dark.

But in real world watching, with some light on in the room, and some dirty cable feeds, the Samsung easily looks better.

I guess after a couple glasses of wine, the people at the shootout didn't notice the false-contouring on the Panny, the floating blacks, or the flickering that you often get with Pannies, etc.

I guess in the dark they did not see how ugly the styling is on the Panasonics.

Anyone who thinks the VE shootout is the final word, especially since the Panny had not had the blacks rise yet, is very naive.

That's because Katzy from CNET was comparing to a 50 inch Samsung which does not have blacks as good as the 58/63 models, and the black levels he recorded were unrealistically high, perhaps because of engaging Cinema Smooth, or because the Samsung model he had had an early glitch that raised black levels, which was quickly fixed via FW.

The fact of the matter is, post-rise, a Panny VT25 has no deeper blacks than the Samsungs. CNET says black levels are the single most important factor in which they make their comparisons.

Like fools, they prematurely crowned the VT25 as the best for 2011, even before they knew what the black levels would end up at. They did this in 2009 as well, and ended up removing the V10 from their top spot many months later.

Also, Katzy seems to narrow-mindedly focus on 24p Blu ray viewing in a dark room.

Once again, people need to learn to take these reviews for what they are worth. They are only ONE piece of the puzzle.

Katzy didn't even notice the false contouring @ 96 hz on Pannys until it was pointed out to him. He is far from the final word, although his insights are still useful--just not DEFINITIVE.

Katzy at CNET would look foolish proclaiming the VT25 the top TV for 2010, and then back-peddling by removing it from the top spot like he had to backtrack and do for the V10 in 2009, and Katzy still doesn't even know for sure where the VT25 will stop rising.

The C8000 was also much less expensive than the VT25 as well, better looking, thinner, better Internet and media player features, better calibration and menu controls, better remote, and on it goes.

You could make a case the Panny VT25 was the best for 2010 if the blacks were stable. But with a 2.5 - 3x rise in black levels, it simply fell short of the Samsungs this year, just like the 2009's after they hit 0.030 fL or more, lost out to the Samsungs in 2009, as well.

Panasonic had some catching up to do. They had more visible phosphor lag than the Samsungs in 2009.

You are aware that Samsung developed faster phosphors for the 2010 models as well, right? Just because they did not make as much of a fuss about it like Panasonic trumpeted about, did not mean they did not have have faster phosohors too.

In fact, you didn't even have to buy a 3D model to benefit. All of Samsung's 2010 1080p plasmas had the faster phosphors. The 768p C450's did not. Panasonic made people pay up the wazoo for the VT25 to get the faster phosphors. You could get that on any cheap Samsung C550.

Perhaps the GT25, since it was 3D also had the faster phosphors, but that came out later in the year. My G25 certainly did not have the faster phosphors, but I never acquired a GT25 to test.

Baloney. Let's see the proof. I WANT TO SEE THE PROOF that the VT25 at the shootout had 2000 hours logged on it. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?

If memory serves correctly, D-Nice measured a 0.0038 or something slightly below 0.004 fL which is consistent with a fresh out of the box, pre-rise VT25.

When the VT25 hits 0.009 - 0.010 fL, let's see if it wins shootouts then. Remember, the VT25 was a lot more expensive than the C8000 as well.

The shootout audience was BAMBOOZLED by all the marketing hype for this SALES EVENT.

The Panny rep told the crowd that the black level rise was not an issue, and D-Nice toed the line and said that by the time the VT25 was done rising, many videophiles would be ready for an upgrade anyway.

Don't want to let the truth of the matter hurt sales, right? I'm sure the sponsor of the event was pleased no fuss was made about blacks rising during the event, and everyone was told it was virtually a non-issue.

I'm sorry but 0.009 - 0.010 fL is not even a respectable MLL result for supposedly the "best" HDTV for 2010. Many 2010 displays can beat that number, including Sammy plasmas, and many LED's.

0.0038 is a respectable number for 2010, and IF the VT25 would maintain that figure, at least there would be a plausible argument why it was crowned the champ. But we now that is a fantasy, and after not very long, there will be no 0.0038 blacks on the VT25.

Maybe if David K actually watched some HDTV with a lamp or something on in the room, or with a window nearby, he would actually feel more love for the Samsungs. After all, when he hunkers down in the dark to do his 24p Blu ray evaluations, he doesn't notice the poor processing on the Pannys and the ugly styling, and he notices the Cinema Smooth glitch.

The Samsung is clearly a better all-around TV, especially considering the exorbitant price of the VT25 and specially after the black level rise. Pre-rise, I will admit that the Panasonic is competitive. 0.004 fL is a very respectable MLL.

0.010 fL is NOT. It is an embarassment for a 2010 TV to be called the best and have a black level that gray after a couple thousand hours.

Thanks for posting this. This just goes to prove my point, yet again. People need to learn to take these reviews and shootouts with a grain of salt. Each reviewer is useful for only different pieces of the puzzle, and you have to real ALL the reviews to get a comprehensive picture, including user reviews from AVS owners, and calibrators too, and then have these sets in your home side by side.

If HD Guru can't see floating blacks on a 2010 Panasonic then he is blind as a bat. They were positively annoying and easily noticeable on my G25. I had it right next to my Samsung side by side for comparison.

I felt the shootout was pretty comprehensive as they did a full calibration of each unit and showed the graphs of the results to the audience.

What I felt was really lacking from the shootout was the complete lack of analysis of standard definition performance, which to me is one of the most important features. When I spend thousands of $$$ on a display I want good picture on all of my content, not just HD!

Perhaps my biggest gripe with Panny besides the black level issues (which appear to be fixed for 2011 models btw) is the undefeatable smoothing of Standard Definition and TV signals from the internal tuner. I am surprised that this is never mentioned in reviews or even on this forum. SD just looks like a blurry turd on the Pannys when I input SD over HDMI from the Tivo. And of course anything through the TV tuner is ruined as well due to the blurring filter (less noticeable on HD channels when comparing with the Tivo's output, but very noticeable on SD).

Samsung is not innocent of this either as they also blur their TV signals from the internal tuner. But they don't blur it through the HDMI/component inputs so I can get around it by using the Tivo. But on the Pannys SD is blurred through HDMI as well!

The worst part is they've been doing this SD blurring since 2007 models and nobody's even complained of it. They have needlessly destroyed their SD performance year after year by forcing this blurring filter because I'm guessing they think people prefer blurry pictures to clear ones.

Anyway there's my rant about SD hope you enjoy it

Hmm, I may have been mistaken about the S1; perhaps it was also a PX80.

More probably it was your px75. The px80 was quite stable in Cinema mode.

Larry

How have these issues been addressed:
1. pre-determined "floating blacks"?
&
2. "green review rating screen lines"?

BIG thanks!

I've been enjoying my display; so haven't been here for like 10,000 posts.

Now I'm really confused. So the floating black was a problem on the 60, 70 and 20 series, but was gone for the 80 and 10 series? That seems odd.

Thanks for your diligence in trying to get the information for the reset John. Maybe someone else will come forward with it.

My px60 had no noticeable floating blacks in Cinema mode.

My px75 had noticeable floating blacks in Cinema mode. It drove me crazy.

My two px80s had no noticeable floating blacks in Cinema mode.

My two x1s have no noticeable floating blacks in Cinema mode.

I did not buy a 2010 model because of the floating blacks.


Larry

A friend of mine had a PH60 and found it very noticeable. I guess perhaps the PH and PX60 differed?

In any case, it seems bizarre that Panasonic would add the "feature" to some models and not to others. If at the very least they would give us the option of turning it off.

my old PX600U (same TV as PX60 basically) definitely had floating blacks. So it's not a PX vs. PH thing, more likely just individual variation in content, usage or settings making it more/less noticeable.... Larry's was sharing his own personal experience and not making definitive statements AFAICT.

If you look back at old Panny user threads this is something that has been discussed for years. CNET in fact specifically mentions it in their review of the PX60U: http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...ml?tag=rvwBody

Thanks, Batpig.

Incidentally, one thing I've noticed about my PX70 lately (I don't think it was always like this) is that blacks are really terrible for the first 5-10 minutes after I turn it on, I'm talking light grey here, and then they settle on, well, a darker grey.

Anyone noticed similar behaviour on other models?

Yes, my old PX60U and my S1 both do this. I believe this is common in plasma technology.

Ah, ok. It could well be that I just didn't notice for a long time, though I'm inclined to believe that it's gotten worse.