Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 352

If you're referring to the shootout at Value Electronics, I was there (at the first session). And let me say that in two separate sessions, the people in the room voted unanimously that the Panny had the superior picture in spite of the fact that it didn't necessarily have the best "numbers". There was absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Panny was the best, but I have to admit to being surprised that the feeling was so unanimous.

The shootout did not take into account how the sets perform over time. These were (AFAIK) out of the box sets that were aligned by D-Nice and the other techs. I don't know how many hours each set had. It's possible that the Panny had 2000 hours (or some # of hours) because it was in stock. Many of the other models were brought in for the event.

It was a very subjective analysis and it wasn't based on seeing lots of different program material. So the tests were far from perfect, but there wasn't any bias in any way, in my opinion. And as far as "sales" are concerned, while I'm sure Robert Zohn hoped it would lead to some sales, I really don't think he could have cared less which set people bought. (Besides, I think most people would wind up buying elsewhere anyway.) There was absolutely no sales pressure during the event and no followup by VE after the event, so I think you do VE a disservice by implying this was all about sales and somehow unethical. I think Zohn does a great service by having these events and when I eventually buy a new TV it will be from Zohn even if it does costs a bit more. (And I can assure you that if I were Zohn, I would have called each attendee after the event to try and make a sale. But he's a very low-key kind of guy.)

As far as "rising blacks" are concerned, I don't remember them being discussed.

While the room was darkened, it was not completely dark because all of the sets were always on and they created quite a bit of light. Certainly not a daylight situation, but not like a typical viewing room at night either (it was brighter).

While VE promotes the shootout, I don't think anyone has implied (at least not anyone who was there) that this was a controlled scientific study of which sets were best. It was just the result of a subjective analysis by the 60 or so people who were in the room at the time.

I think you're obsessing over this far too much. If you don't like the Panny, fine....don't like it.

My PX60u had floating blacks but never did it when showing the actual main movie (IE black bars at top and bottom were perfectly stable). The only time it floated was when it went to and from a total black screen..then it would change a bit. My buddy has a newer Panny 1080p (not sure of model #). The constant changing of brightness and floating blacks are terrible on it. Would drive me crazy. My Pioneer 6020 is rock solid...no floating at all.

Excuse me, but the blacklevel rise at 24p (and 50hz input) on Samsung-Plasmas is horrible.

...which was fixed by recent firmware updates in applicable models... right?

What are the chances that the 2011's will have the rising black problem? Early reviews of the ST30 indicate that the floating blacks have been addressed, which is good news but I haven't seen anything from panasonic saying outright that the black levels will not change over the life of the new sets. I have seen one statement that some are assuming means that the blacks will not change, but they could simply be talking about the floating blacks as they also talk about black levels as they relate to brightness.

Well just because there arent floating blacks doesnt mean risings are fixed. 2009 pannys didnt have floating blacks, yet they rised.

yes I understand that. I was just wondering if panasonic had come out and said that their black levels will not change over the life of their new sets or if they were still being vague?

Panasonic if you are really listening, get a firmware fix for these darn problems already!! HELLO?????????

Why should they? When stupid shoppers including me A) Continue buying their products and B) Don't collectively demand to get their act together and force this firmware on them?

If ALL or MOST panasonic users here petition them and create enough negative publicity, I am sure they will do something.
Websites such as CNet are not the answer because they have vested interest in advertising.

Thanks for posting the YouTube clip, Pneumatic.

As everyone can hear for themselves, the audience was BAMBOOZLED, and led to believe by all the key players involved that the VT25 they were viewing was going to maintain the same black levels for a long time to come. We now know this is FALSE, and the credibility of the results of the shootout has seriously been called into question.

What good does it do to brag about winning a shootout, with PQ that DOES NOT LAST, after you mislead the audience about how long the display will perform at the level of the shootout.

Rough transcript of the above YouTube video.


Panny rep: "David Katzmaier from CNET, he actually has a G series and a VT25, he's kept them, he's been obviously up to date with CNET, and actively letting people know, he has not seen any loss at all on anything, so there is really nothing more to say about the comments there or..."

Kevin Miller: "He's burning 'em in for usually, well over a thousand hours, and there's been no raise in black levels."

Robert Z: "Well this one's been since early July, actually, and we've seen no measurable--nothing that we can measure, that's changed, so, and we leave this TV on a lot, because it's a beautiful TV to display, as well as we want to do a very thorough, minimum of a thousand hour break-in, so we don't see any measurable, nothing we can measure, with the instruments we have."

D-Nice: "By the time, you guys actually see these rise, you'll be in the market for another display. We're all enthusiasts, so by the time, from the enthusiasts perspective, by the time this stuff actually starts happening, you're gonna be in the market for the best panel and display at the point in time anyway. So at this point, I would say, it's kind of like irrelevant, but you know, the question still stands. I understand that, but, don't worry about it."

Furthermore, as everyone who watches the clip of the shootout can hear for themselves, the sponsor of the shootout says that they have had that VT25 in since "early July". Well the shootout took place in early September, about 2 months later.

60 days (roughly) times 24 hours a day = 1440 hours.

So even if Robert left the VT25 on every single hour of every single day, for two full months, the panel could only have accumulated not much more than 1500 hours.

And who really believes that the VT25 was never turned off for two straight months?

I bet the VT25 at the shootout did not even have ONE thousand hours on it, LET ALONE the 2,000 hour number that some of the Panny fanny promoters here on AVS claim.

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?

2,000 hours...yeah right!

Wow, do you ever not know what you're talking about. I was at that shootout, and they reported no rise because at the time they had seen no rise and honestly thought there wouldn't be a noticeable one. That things eventually turned out otherwise has nothing to do with deceit on their part and everything to do with the rise taking longer than expected last year. If anyone did any bamboozling in this, it was Panasonic, but it seems to me the most biased and misleading comments in this are coming from you, not from anyone you criticize.

Might you have some kind of agenda, here?

Wow! We Bamboozled the audience. Errr, ok

I have a feeling this thread is about to turn nasty...

Have you even been to Robert's store? Yes or no will suffice but I already know the answer is no.

If you actually did, you would know that YES he actually does leave these displays on overnight.

The fact of the matter is that the VT25 at the shootout had not risen. There were people there that should have known that it would. I don't know how you give a tv an award for the year when noone knows what it will actually end up looking like.

Calvin

I don't know what you are referring to. This was the results of the shoot-out. Not some long term test. All the attendees had to base their results on were the displays they were viewing.

I own a 2009 V10 that has risen dramatically. Would love to replace it, but was not impressed with any of the choices from 2010 to make a move. I will wait to see what 2011 and long term test results bring.

As D-Nice said early on in this discussion, I can still be glad I have a good TV to watch. Not as good for as long as I hoped, but it will do for now.

D-Nice - if my paraphrase of your words is incorrect, I apologize. Even though I do follow this thread semi regularly, I do not have the energy to look up your exact words.

Bamboozled???

No, I have never been to his store. I did not know that he leaves his panels on 24 hours a day non-stop either. Thanks for the info. Even if he never turned it off for the roughly two months he had it before the shootout, it still would not have accumulated the 2,000 hours some people are claiming.

After 1,543 hours, CNET reported their VT25 rose from 0.004 to 0.007 fL. They estimate final MLL at 0.009 - 0.010 fL. I just don't think the VT25 should win any shootout with a final MLL of 0.009 - 0.010 fL and some of the worst processing CNET has tested recently on any HDTV. I think that is a very mediocre black level by 2010 standards, which can be beat by Samsung, and almost equaled by LG in certain of their plasmas, and can be easily beaten by many LED's.

I will concede that pre-rise, while the blacks were still registering ~0.004 fL, one could make the case that the Panasonic deserved to win, especially since the shootout focused primarily on dark-room viewing of 24p Blu ray sources.

But what good does it do to win a shootout by cheating their black levels lower to an unsustainable level?

Dubious honor if you ask me!

http://www.highdefforum.com/1113773-post155.html

Well, I'm not saying it is any one person's fault, but the general tone from everyone involved was that there was nothing to worry about, and it was a non-issue. Even though everyone knew that Panasonic had admitted it would not be fixed for 2010. Why that wasn't brought up to the audience, that Panasonic ADMITTED that the rise was not going to be eliminated for 2010, is inexplicable, that is, unless you are a cynic like me and know how the world of sales works. It can't help sales, but only hinder them, if prospective buyers are unsure about where the black levels would end up on their display.

Three and a half weeks after the shootout, CNET released their article showing the rise on both the G20 and the VT25.

How convenient. A day late and a dollar short. Too bad we didn't have that data point at the time of the shootout.

I would have liked to have seen an asterisk.

Panny is the champ! well...er....for perhaps 1500 hours anyway. After that...your guess is as good as mine!

The flat panel shoot-out was not done to be a military tribunal. If you want one, pony up the money for one and I will be more than happy to attend.


So now it is a conspiracy.CNet was in on the whole thing, eh?


Not by my ballot

Well, well, well. The plot thickens. I see now Robert admitted that the VT25 only had 652 hours on it, and he was only running it 8-10 hours per day for 6 days a week. I'm not sure why he would be stymied by this figure, however.

Let's say 9 weeks or 63 days. But only 6 days per week. So nine weeks times 6 days per week = the VT25 on for 54 days.

54 days times the higher figure of ten hours per day would be 540 hours.

No surprise why it only registered 652 hours....simple math!

VFR,

I'm speaking in general terms. It is know by many that you and I do not like each other. Every time you see me and someone else discussing something that may be heated, you just have to attempt to inject a "gotcha". It has not, nor will it ever work. If you want attention, I'll be more than happy to put my foot in your ass entertain your antics later.

Trust me when I say that I was not joking.

Some of the worst processing CNET has tested?! Here's the bottom line: although exact pixel info I don't know... It DOES maintain 1080 lines of motion resolution. Some 240hz led lcds couldn't even do that last year. Most did, but some still didn't. So WTF are you talking about? This set surely didn't win the award for black levels alone. Color accuracy, 1080p/24 ability, and motion resolution probably had something to do with it. I don't give a DAMN how standard def looks. That's not why I bought my panasonic; but saying it has $hit processing is ridiculous.

I've got five on D-nice for the win. Now let's take it to the Cage!!!

LG-Plasmas of the year 2010 rise after 1000 hours!

Mine went from 0,068 cd/m2 up to 0,127 cd/m2.

If I wouldn't have been able to fix it by myself with some potituning, I would not have kept it!