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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 358

post #10711 of 10800
10/15/11 at 6:47pm
Another...
LL
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post #10712 of 10800
10/16/11 at 6:26am
John,
How many hours do you have on your Pany ? When did you start to notice a drop in mll?
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post #10713 of 10800
10/16/11 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rczarne View Post

John,
How many hours do you have on your Pany ? When did you start to notice a drop in mll?

I'd say 5000 at least. I had my a-board replace too; Resetting my hour count. And then i reset my hour count manually at 1500 or so. I'd say there are 2000 or so by now. Add that all up; and who who knows. I'm not saying my mll has lowered... I'm just saying that I've begun to think that it's possible. The idea has crossed my mind because there were times, before my tv was calibrated, over a year ago or so, where my tv looked a lot worse as far as black levels were concerned. Whether this is an artificial result because I no longer use the thx setting; maybe. But even then, black levels have at least somewhat appeared to have gotten better as I've blazed through the hours on this thing.
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post #10714 of 10800
10/17/11 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kramer View Post

I'd say 5000 at least. I had my a-board replace too; Resetting my hour count. And then i reset my hour count manually at 1500 or so. I'd say there are 2000 or so by now. Add that all up; and who who knows. I'm not saying my mll has lowered... I'm just saying that I've begun to think that it's possible. The idea has crossed my mind because there were times, before my tv was calibrated, over a year ago or so, where my tv looked a lot worse as far as black levels were concerned. Whether this is an artificial result because I no longer use the thx setting; maybe. But even then, black levels have at least somewhat appeared to have gotten better as I've blazed through the hours on this thing.

Maybe all we needed to do was run continuously until we get to 5000 hours to let the TV "catch up' with the MLL rise Mine definitely has not lowered but I don't think I am at 3500 hours yet. I am still happy with the performance with the exception of the black level . But if it would get back to the original MLL in the future.....
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post #10715 of 10800
10/19/11 at 5:05pm
I gave my G10 to my parents and they have it in their basement. I now have a KRP-500M Pioneer. They've had the G10 for a year now and the blacks look better to my eye in complete darkness then when I first gave it to them. I can no longer read a book in the gray glow like I used to be able to. Not very technical, I know. Anybody else with a lot of hours on their G10/V10? Panel age finally catching up to the premature increase of voltage?
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post #10716 of 10800
10/19/11 at 7:01pm
I believe you.

When the st30 drops to $750 or so this holiday season I'll snag one - so it's not like I'm looking for anything to mentally make myself feel better about my tv. I've done the pot adjustments, calibrated it, ect... But as my v10 ages, it does look darker. I'm pretty certain of it. Your g10 looking darker too, I'll buy that as well. Something is weird about these panels. It's nowhere near its half life of 50,000 hours though... But maybe their math was horribly goofed up all along.
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post #10717 of 10800
10/21/11 at 8:01am
I'd like to contribute to the optimism, but I'm at ~6600 hours, ~4000 on/off count, and I'm not noticing any improvement in MLL. My i1 Pro can't read black levels accurately; otherwise I would contribute some numbers.
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post #10718 of 10800
11/17/11 at 4:16am
Hi,
I've got a TC-P50G11b and i've been following this topic. I appreciate the work that some guys here has been made to find the way to fix the Panas black level.

I found some Services Manuals and i would like to share with yours, i don´t know if it´s helps. Specially the function to copy the A Board information to SD card. Maybe have some nice informations to us.

Some manuals are in Brazilian Portuguese...

pt.scribd.com/doc/54988038/Panasonic-Ch-gpf13dda-Tc-p50vt20b
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post #10719 of 10800
11/20/11 at 12:00pm
Here is another case of late BL rise, from Italy :

50G10, bought in november 2009, started with great black level of about 0.03 cd/m2 (about 0.009 FLT), now is near an awful 0.115 cd/m2 (about 0.034 FLT).

Useless to say, this is not what i paid for and i paid a lot.

The PQ is affected as much as numbers could suggest, it was clear to me that something of serious happened long before any instrumental test result.

Now i have an ANSI contrast that is less then 1000

Sadly, the last and the worst black level rise took place between 5000 and 5500 hours of use, just few days after warranty end time !

Looking for a solution on the web soon led me to Panasonic official answer about this matter, that in facts leaves customers in the mud.

What a delusion, i spent the last twenty years buying and suggesting Panasonic devices and now this "kind" of treatment

I guess i will change my habits.

And If, as i fear, there is no feasible solution for DIYers on the way, i will have to sell off the TV set at bargain price

After only two years, sure not a great deal.

Hi to all,
Marco.
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post #10720 of 10800
11/26/11 at 6:17am
Any updates on 2011 Panasonic rising blacks? CNET article isn't updated (1500 hours). Any test with more hours?

Thanks
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post #10721 of 10800
11/26/11 at 5:17pm
Just for reference, i performed the VR600 pot trimming ... with not any real benefit !

I measured the TPVAD testpoint voltage before and after the mod :

- before : -180V
- after : -165V

The luminance variation was negligible, under 0.01 cd/m2, so the trimmer just returned in original position.

I'm starting to think that the whole matter is far to be understood.

Marco.
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post #10722 of 10800
12/6/11 at 2:07pm
No updates on CNET 2011 rising blacks article?
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post #10723 of 10800
12/6/11 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tocinillo View Post

No updates on CNET 2011 rising blacks article?

Did they need to stop testing/aging because of a scheduled recertification of their meter or because they discovered a problem with it and sent it off for recertification?

Professional calibrators here send their gear in for recertification on a regular bases and don't wait for problems to happen before they act on it. CNET may have just gotten sloppy. I hope that isn't the case, because that might imply that previously gathered data before the problem was discovered could be questionable.
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post #10724 of 10800
4/25/12 at 5:45pm
Is there any update or word on a fix for the black level rise?

My 50PZ800u has (my guess is) over 5,000 hours and looks absolutely terrible. I can't tune it, nor could my very dedicated friend who brought over a tuning program on his laptop.

My choices are crushed blacks throughout and nearly-impossible-to-view dark scenes, or a very washed out picture.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I bought two of these sets expecting them to last 10 years and can't imagine throwing out the investment to buy again without a fight (I do know about the class-action lawsuit but haven't heard anything on that front in a while).

Thanks!
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post #10725 of 10800
4/28/12 at 2:25pm
Is there a solution with voltage trims for GT25? Is there any solution at all? Now I regret I didn't buy an LG.
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post #10726 of 10800
4/29/12 at 1:31pm
Hey can anyone tell me how Panasonic handled the lawsuit? Was there a settlement for the 2009 plasmas?
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post #10727 of 10800
4/30/12 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD_DVD_XA2 View Post

Hey can anyone tell me how Panasonic handled the lawsuit? Was there a settlement for the 2009 plasmas?


http://www.jdsupra.com/post/document...3-f63859c33084
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post #10728 of 10800
4/30/12 at 5:31pm
^ Thanks, rczarne. To summarize roughly: the class action is dead. The attorneys for the class did not allege sufficient facts to establish (1) that Panasonic misrepresented the black levels to consumers (the court ruled that such statements were, rather, opinion, aka "puffery"); (2) that the consumers suffered a loss, as the sets are presumably still in use; and, (3) that there was a breach of implied warranty because the sets are still usable.

I'm considering filing a small claims court lawsuit alleging breach of contract. There is a statute of limitations for breach of contract claims in each state. In California, it's two years for an oral contract and four years for a written contract. I might allege that the statute should be tolled (allowed to start later) because this was a latent defect.

I'm almost certain that there's an arbitration clause in whatever language on the Panasonic EPP site I clicked on when I purchased the sets, but I can't find a copy of that contract. If I allege fraud (statute of limitations in Calif.: 3 years), I might be able to avoid arbitration because the contract would be invalid.

It would take some time to do this, but might be worth a shot. If I'm successful, I will post a link to my paperwork for others to use. If anyone else has done this, please share your experience.

I had been a loyal Panasonic customer for many different types of products for decades, and approached Panasonic in an attempt to resolve this without resorting to the law. They sent out an experienced technician to measure my set. He was either completely incompetent, or he or corporate HQ in NJ lied about his findings. He tuned the picture so that all blacks were crushed and said, "See, the colors are perfectly bright and acceptable." I complained about the zero shadow detail. Then he tuned the set to be completely washed out and said, "You can see the detail now. This set is performing properly." It was the equivalent of sending a tone-deaf reporter to review an orchestra performance (or, like I said, either he or corporate is simply dishonest).
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post #10729 of 10800
5/1/12 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnylighton View Post

^ Thanks, rczarne. To summarize roughly: the class action is dead. The attorneys for the class did not allege sufficient facts to establish (1) that Panasonic misrepresented the black levels to consumers (the court ruled that such statements were, rather, opinion, aka "puffery"); (2) that the consumers suffered a loss, as the sets are presumably still in use; and, (3) that there was a breach of implied warranty because the sets are still usable.

I'm considering filing a small claims court lawsuit alleging breach of contract. There is a statute of limitations for breach of contract claims in each state. In California, it's two years for an oral contract and four years for a written contract. I might allege that the statute should be tolled (allowed to start later) because this was a latent defect.

I'm almost certain that there's an arbitration clause in whatever language on the Panasonic EPP site I clicked on when I purchased the sets, but I can't find a copy of that contract. If I allege fraud (statute of limitations in Calif.: 3 years), I might be able to avoid arbitration because the contract would be invalid.

It would take some time to do this, but might be worth a shot. If I'm successful, I will post a link to my paperwork for others to use. If anyone else has done this, please share your experience.

I had been a loyal Panasonic customer for many different types of products for decades, and approached Panasonic in an attempt to resolve this without resorting to the law. They sent out an experienced technician to measure my set. He was either completely incompetent, or he or corporate HQ in NJ lied about his findings. He tuned the picture so that all blacks were crushed and said, "See, the colors are perfectly bright and acceptable." I complained about the zero shadow detail. Then he tuned the set to be completely washed out and said, "You can see the detail now. This set is performing properly." It was the equivalent of sending a tone-deaf reporter to review an orchestra performance (or, like I said, either he or corporate is simply dishonest).

Did they actually measure the black level ?
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post #10730 of 10800
5/1/12 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rczarne View Post

Did they actually measure the black level ?


They never specified a minimum black level so what good would measuring it do? I know -- someone should start another lawsuit because they didn't spec it.

Larry
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post #10731 of 10800
5/1/12 at 5:25pm
The Panasonic engineer did not measure the black level. He brought a laptop to display test patterns but no meter.
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post #10732 of 10800
5/1/12 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnylighton View Post

The Panasonic engineer did not measure the black level. He brought a laptop to display test patterns but no meter.


It doesn't matter what he did. The plaintiffs had no published specification by Panasonic to use data to refute.

For general information, here is the measured minimum black level over time for my 2009 (12G) 50X1.



As you can see it leveled out at about 0.020 ftL and is still quite acceptable for a bedroom set. It really doesn't look that bad compared to my 64D7000 with a black level of 0.007 - 0.008 ftL.

Larry
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post #10733 of 10800
5/1/12 at 6:09pm
I'm glad you are still enjoying your 50X1, Larry. Do you know how many hours are on it? My sets are also 2009, but they are the 50PZ800u. Is this a different panel from what you have?

For my own situation, I'm not concerned with the class action lawsuit at all. I do not expect what those attorneys alleged to have any impact on other owners.

Panasonic advertised the 2009 sets as having new and excellent black levels. I verified this in the store before buying. While my sets were still returnable, I confirmed that the black levels were as advertised. But within two years, the black levels were nowhere near what they were when they started. I never would have purchased the sets had they disclosed this. Thus, I think I can make a good case for breach of contract, and, potentially, negligent misrepresentation (a subcategory of fraud).

It's like like buying your dream car: you test drive it, take it home, and love driving it. Then after 4% of its advertised service life, the engine horsepower is so reduced that the car is now a dog. This is the analogy I will give to the judge if I take Panasonic to small claims court.
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post #10734 of 10800
5/1/12 at 6:15pm
johnnylighton,

You will not win with that argument. "... new and excellent black levels" is not a measurement. The horse power of an engine is.

Anyway, good luck with your day in court.

Larry
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post #10735 of 10800
5/1/12 at 6:17pm
Fair enough. Thanks for the constructive criticism, Larry. I think I will concentrate on the change in black levels, and how this was never disclosed.
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post #10736 of 10800
5/1/12 at 6:34pm
Anyone ever contact the FTC about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnylighton View Post

Fair enough. Thanks for the constructive criticism, Larry. I think I will concentrate on the change in black levels, and how this was never disclosed.
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post #10737 of 10800
5/15/12 at 2:43pm
http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model...s&support#tabs

Under the tech specifications tab for my th-50px80u they list it as capable of displaying 4096 shades of gradation. My guess would be that when the black level rises it would lose some of it's capability to display those shades. Someone would have to measure it to find out but it is a specification that Panasonic says their displays meet and it's alot more clearly defined than "Excellent black levels and contrast" or whatever their slogan is.
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post #10738 of 10800
5/20/12 at 12:57am
Ok...I've just bought a px70 and am not that impressed with the black level, this was comparing with an aging Sony plasma which has the grey mist. I expected the Lanny to be near black in a totally dark room a stepping stone to pled. Can someone tell me how the performance of the Panasonic compares with other plasmas when the poor black level issue occurs? Is it still ahead of all other brand plasmas? Are the black levels of Panasonic suppose to be similar to cry?
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post #10739 of 10800
5/20/12 at 9:54am
The px70 is a 2007 model. While it was reviewed to have good black levels which probably stomped all over any lcd of the time it probably isn't much more than average when compared to a kuro or modern panasonic or even a modern samsung (2011+). It may or may not have risen blacks at all.
In this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1250816
You can see the px80 (2008?) has a measured black level of 0.037 ftl or
0.12 cd. In this review: http://www.televisioninfo.com/conten...and-Whites.htm you can see that a modern bottom of the line samsung model measures 0.008 ftl or 0.03 cd.
A 2009 panasonic g10 which has been found to exhibit the rising blacks would start out at 0.0087 ftl or 0.03 cd as seen in the first thread i linked and would presumably rise to 3x it's original mll or black level. 0.008x3=0.024 ftl
0.03 cdx3=0.09 cd. That would put that bottom of the line modern samsung at a 3x lower black level than a 2009 panasonic. More modern panasonics like the st50 and st30 seen here: http://www.televisioninfo.com/conten...re-Quality.htm start out lower at around 0.02 cd and are supposed to rise at a much slower rate but once they rise they would presumably be at triple the original black level 0.06 cd
Panasonic does offer the deepest blacks but i would be wary of purchasing any panny based off of their word that the black levels no longer rise and samsung is catching up quickly and even beating them in the low end for black levels.
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post #10740 of 10800
5/20/12 at 10:04am
I also have a hitachi crt rear projection. As far as a comparison between crt and plasma goes i can't say, but i can speculate having owned a benq ew2420 which measured 0.03 cd by saying that it was borderline acceptable to me in the darkest scenes of games like splinter cell actually showing black but the crt is probably about 4-5 times deeper, like gazing into a black hole with shadow detail
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