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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 359

post #10741 of 10800
5/20/12 at 4:55pm
The black level on my 2006 px60 was 0.032 ftL.
On my 2007 px75 was 0.019 and
on my 2008 px80 was 0.016 ftL.

There was no increase over time for these.


I still have both my 42X1 and 50X1 2009 models. For the 50 inch, the black level increased over time.




For comparison, my current Samsung 64D7000 has a black level of about 0.007 ftL.

@Mike James: There was no px70 model and the data from televisioninfo has always been suspect.


Larry
LL
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post #10742 of 10800
5/20/12 at 5:20pm
Thanks...think I'm best waiting for oled technology...
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post #10743 of 10800
5/21/12 at 7:07am
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Panasonic-TH42PX70/
These review sites might get a little annoyed if they found out they were reviewing a model that never existed
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post #10744 of 10800
5/21/12 at 7:14am
I'm always open to good reliable review sites though.
What do you reccomend?
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post #10745 of 10800
5/21/12 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Panasonic-TH42PX70/
These review sites might get a little annoyed if they found out they were reviewing a model that never existed


The closest TV to the European and Asian px70 in North America was the px75. There was no px70 in North America.

Larry
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post #10746 of 10800
5/21/12 at 3:11pm
Alright that makes a little more sense. I would assume the poster lives in one of those areas then as he said he has a px70. You made it sound like they don't exist 0o. What review sites would you most reccomend? I usually just find whatever tv i'm looking into on as many review sites as i can so i can get a good average. The ones that actually post measurements that seem to pop up the most are cnet and television info.
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post #10747 of 10800
5/21/12 at 3:42pm
Yes, I'm from the UK. The PX70 screen size I had was the 37 inch. I think Panasonic ceased making 37 inch Plasma screens last year?

Not sure if anyone in the states has heard of the LG 32 inch plasma screen that was released in 2008?

Just wondered how LG black levels compare to the Panasonics? I hear that the 'va' panel drive voltage could be tweaked, which gave stunning black levels. I must admit tweaking the 'va' control in my Panasonic and did notice an improvement, but an improvement that was hardly noticeable.

What voltages are changed with the Panasonic automatic aging compensator? I kind of think that Panasonic cheat in respect to getting pure black levels, as I have observered the 'Floating black' effect, which appears to be a slow reacting processing, that only reduces the accuracy of a display???? Only guessing...
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post #10748 of 10800
5/21/12 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I'm always open to good reliable review sites though.
What do you reccomend?


You might find some basic PX75U settings here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=843204.

If I remember correctly, we were not posting service menu grayscale adjustment values (or offset values) back then.

Larry
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post #10749 of 10800
5/21/12 at 4:53pm
From what i read on the black level tweak thread for lg's most of the users were tweaking because the plasmas had poor blacks to begin with. A few select models actually got down to pretty deep mlls (0.012 cd) but the biggest complaints on that thread are of noise and inaccuracies in the deepest shades of black, as well as pixel misfires. I suppose if you could find one of the decent models for a couple hundred or so used, it would be a decent project display. Did you witness a rise in mll on your panasonic or did you buy it used?
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post #10750 of 10800
5/21/12 at 5:01pm
Thanks for the link Larry but Mine's a px80u, i've been trying to sell it though cause it's no where near deep enough for me. I wouldn't want to do anything to screw it up before i sell it so i haven't touched the service menu. I noticed a slight green/orange push but the tint control took care of it, really nice color otherwise compared to what i've owned before (alot more subtle shades).
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post #10751 of 10800
5/21/12 at 6:47pm
For those interested in what what older models (few years back) had for their minimum luminance level, I find the first page of this thread interesting to look at.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=418113
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post #10752 of 10800
5/22/12 at 12:55pm
I bought this display second hand. In the UK small is best, due to our small houses. If I'm not mistaken, the px80 was the last 37inch plasma. Even though LCD displays are improving, and bettering plasma in black levels, there are plenty more areas that plasma displays excel in pq. My Sony is a fantastic plasma, only missing out the deep blacks of crt. However, the bias lighting kills the black issues. I'm toying with getting a secondhand 32inch HD LG plasma, as it appears they can be tweaked to get black levels very near to crt.
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post #10753 of 10800
5/22/12 at 2:57pm
Most lcd's aren't battering plasmas at all. Only local dimming sets can get darker
and they start at around 2000$. You have to take into account the panel tech used on lcd's as well. I don't think a 32" HDTV plasma exist, I've heard of the 32" lg your referring to and it's an edtv 852x480 resolution which means a lot less detail. You also have to take into account that lg aren't doing very well compared to other brands with dark shadow detail, accuracy and video noise, which basically means tweaked lg's have relatively deep blacks but not very good blacks overall. I personally wouldn't pay for an edtv as they just aren't worth more than 40-50$. Decent samsungs are dirt cheap over here in Canada and start out with a good deep black that I would find acceptable. Good luck on your search
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post #10754 of 10800
5/22/12 at 4:15pm
In Europe LG developed the 32pg6000, which, although not full HD, had an native resolution 720 lines. It was produced in 2008
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post #10755 of 10800
5/22/12 at 8:41pm
We'll ya learn something new everyday
I can only imagine it was a incredible pain to fit 1024x768 pixels on a 32 inch screen. I wuldn't think they would have sold alot of them. Have you found one used for a decent price? You can get 42 inch lg plasmas used for around 300 in my area, which puts it just outside my price range as a project display.
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post #10756 of 10800
5/23/12 at 3:00pm
The LG 32inch plasma is very desirable here in the UK. You don't see many around and when you do they are still fairly pricey.

42inch would leave most UK householders cramped in their small living rooms.

For now, I'm going to do some more tweaking on the Panasonic. Just wondered if there are the 'Ramp' controls that are mentioned in the LG forum for better black levels?
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post #10757 of 10800
5/23/12 at 4:22pm
Hmmmm...Just been reading 'Zero black level PDP research' and from what I have read, the Panasonic black level issues all revolve around the manufacturer trying to achieve high efficiency, reducing power consumption. This must be in relation to the 'eco' movement.

Other manufacturer Plasma screens may not provide the deep blacks that Panasonic achieve, but Panasonic blacks are artificial, which gives the 'floating black' effect.

I think I would rather opt for a display that has natural, consistent blacks, that does not rely on artificial processing to shift the black level in such a poor way that it becomes a distraction.

It appears that Pioneer do not use artificial processing to achieve deeper black, rather, they have re-designed the actual plasma panel structure.

At the end of the day, power consumption is the selling point. Power consumption will be the selling point for OLED screens.
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post #10758 of 10800
5/24/12 at 12:23pm
That seems kinda odd to me
If the voltages going to the plasma cells increases like it does on the panasonics to much higher voltages i would imagine it would be far less efficient and negatively impact the life of the panel. I'd imagine those 32 inchers do cost alot, it was probably never cost effective for lg to create them in the first place. I'd easily drop 1000$ on a decent pioneer kuro but i'll likely never find one at that price or anywhere near the $500 i actually want to spend on a decent plasma.
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post #10759 of 10800
5/24/12 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by delphiplasma View Post

Other manufacturer Plasma screens may not provide the deep blacks that Panasonic achieve, but Panasonic blacks are artificial, which gives the 'floating black' effect.

I think I would rather opt for a display that has natural, consistent blacks, that does not rely on artificial processing to shift the black level in such a poor way that it becomes a distraction.

No.

Panasonid did this 2010. They did it not 2010 with G14 and they do it not with G15 this year.

So, they awesome blacks are not artificial anymore.
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post #10760 of 10800
5/24/12 at 2:27pm
What exactly is the floating black phenomenon everyone is talking about? Is it a form of dynamic contrast where the panel can't show as deep a black when there is more light on the screen?
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post #10761 of 10800
5/24/12 at 5:02pm
Floating black...hard to describe. It's noticeable on films with cinemascope black bars. The picture content doesn't necessarily need to be full white screen. The effect is like someone altering the brightness control to suit the on screen image. Yes, and the response is slow. I remember the days of crt with poorly implement ABL which fed back into the brightness circuit, so when a bright science came up the black level would drop big time. Some manufacturers then started feeding back into the contrast circuit, which gave a more acceptable picture. In one of the patents from Panasonic, they state that black level would take priority over picture quality? Makes me wonder? I'll see if I can dig that patent out
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post #10762 of 10800
5/24/12 at 8:27pm
I'm curious if anyone has measured mll on a 2010 Panasonic beyond 2000 hours?

My March 2010 build G25 has more than 6500 hours (used ~9 hours a day), the black level looks brighter compared to new (I don't have tools to measure; just veiwing high contrast demos) but I wonder how high it might get.

The OP shows 0.012 as the highest measured G series from 2010. The final 3x rise predicted, would put it at ~0.018 I think.

I use my display in a moderatly bright environment so it still has a bit of "pop" and this display gets plenty bright so the perception of deep blacks also appears in some scenes.

It would be disapointing if the blacks were to rise much more. I just don't know if they would have stopped already with so many hours on my display.

Are other 2010 Panasonic owners still happy with their display's black level?
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post #10763 of 10800
5/24/12 at 9:02pm
I am definitely not happy. I have European 42GT20. I will post measurements later.
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post #10764 of 10800
5/28/12 at 7:54am
Anyone have an idea of whether or not the higher voltages in the risen panels will negatively impact panel life? I know they claim 100000 hours but i can just imagine mass panel failure after 5-10 years and another uproar starting
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post #10765 of 10800
6/1/12 at 1:14pm
you can modify the time (number of hours) and number of ON/OFF, in service menu... may help to restore black level for begining...
I have panasonic plasma TX-P42V10E
press volume- on tv, an press 0 0 0 on remote
select svr tool
in right column, in last blank space if press mute for 3 seconds, will see time and numbers of on/off.
in right column in FIRST BLANK SPACE , (in the top) if press mute for 3 seconds, will see MEMORY EDITOR....
PRESS OK...
will see a menu with four memories in left column
in the third line is EEPROM (PEAKS)
at adress 6CF and 6D0 is number of hours in hexa, and
at adress 6CB and 6CC is number of on/off in hexa
you can modify the values
i have 04430:00 hours, in hexa is 11 4E
at adress 6CF is value 4E an at adress 6D0 is value 11
i put at 6CF value 01 and at 6D0 value 00
finally a have one hour on the last space in right column.
may be the modification, is usefull for restore initial black level
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post #10766 of 10800
6/1/12 at 4:40pm
Great first post. Not sure if this will work on a US tv.
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post #10767 of 10800
6/3/12 at 2:14am
Reset post looks good. Just to clarify the 'floating blacks' issue. This only occurs on a bright screen. So, if you start with a black screen and add a white windows display, the black level gets worse. Hope that makes sense? Would be nice if this auto brightness could somehow be switched off
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post #10768 of 10800
6/3/12 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by plop View Post

you can modify the time (number of hours) and number of ON/OFF, in service menu... may help to restore black level for begining...
I have panasonic plasma TX-P42V10E
press volume- on tv, an press 0 0 0 on remote
select svr tool
in right column, in last blank space if press mute for 3 seconds, will see time and numbers of on/off.
in right column in FIRST BLANK SPACE , (in the top) if press mute for 3 seconds, will see MEMORY EDITOR....
PRESS OK...
will see a menu with four memories in left column
in the third line is EEPROM (PEAKS)
at adress 6CF and 6D0 is number of hours in hexa, and
at adress 6CB and 6CC is number of on/off in hexa
you can modify the values
i have 04430:00 hours, in hexa is 11 4E
at adress 6CF is value 4E an at adress 6D0 is value 11
i put at 6CF value 01 and at 6D0 value 00
finally a have one hour on the last space in right column.
may be the modification, is usefull for restore initial black level

This has been discussed several (many) times. Reseting clock or on/off counters does nothing with black level. Only A board reset (performed by pana technician) can temporarily restore the black level (until the counters hit the programmed increments again).
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post #10769 of 10800
6/6/12 at 5:46pm
If you know at what adress of one of four memory, " A board " read data for number of hours, you can modify , the value of that data, and restore black level, and repeat once / year this...
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post #10770 of 10800
6/16/12 at 2:52pm
I've managed to reset the counters as plop suggested but saw no improved black levels, unfortunately. But it's a valuable information - how to access EEPROM. Maybe someone can even find an address for voltage...
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