or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 364

post #10891 of 11159
Brilliant! Thanks for the excellent mini-guide. The only difference on my (US) set is that the cover is oriented vertically, but it popped out easy-peasy once I applied the flathead, so I was able to answer the poll.

This whole thing is quite amazing.

Good going, internet!!
post #10892 of 11159
has anyone attempted mironto's method on an S10 model? I was trying last night for quite a while with an arduino and getting no readings from the eeprom. I was using a janky system for my connections to the tv, but given the amount of different ways i tried it, it seems like something should have happened... When the wires were connected up the panel would stay black and the light would blink, but I never saw any info come into the serial monitor.

maybe there should be a separate thread for this kind of issue (or is there already?)

im on a north american model btw...
post #10893 of 11159
It should be possible to do it on NA S10 as well. What Arduino board do you have? Did you disable internal pull-up resistors prior to hooking up the Arduino to the TV? I would double-check the wiring and maybe get a testbed to test reading/writing from test EEPROM to make sure that there's nothing wrong with the Arduino.
post #10894 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessbones View Post

has anyone attempted mironto's method on an S10 model? I was trying last night for quite a while with an arduino and getting no readings from the eeprom. I was using a janky system for my connections to the tv, but given the amount of different ways i tried it, it seems like something should have happened... When the wires were connected up the panel would stay black and the light would blink, but I never saw any info come into the serial monitor.

maybe there should be a separate thread for this kind of issue (or is there already?)

im on a north american model btw...

clktmr (the original poster who reset black levels) had an S10 - although I believe a european model - and mironto had a european G10. I tried it on my north american V10 and it worked. Based on those 3 examples, I would think that it should absolutely work on a north american S10.

I am unfamilliar with a "janky system", but if it is anything like my homemade harness, my first thought is to doubly verify that you have the correct pins on the TV's service connector going to the correct pins on the arduino.

I'm trying to think of anything that could be easily forgotten, all I can think of right now would be to ask if you disabled the internal pull-up resistors in the arduino?

EDIT: looks like mironto just beat me to it.
post #10895 of 11159
I have an old 50G10 that I'd like to restore if anyone actually makes that shippable mod device...
post #10896 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

It should be possible to do it on NA S10 as well. What Arduino board do you have? Did you disable internal pull-up resistors prior to hooking up the Arduino to the TV? I would double-check the wiring and maybe get a testbed to test reading/writing from test EEPROM to make sure that there's nothing wrong with the Arduino.

I did disable the resistors-- I commented out the indicated lines in twi.c, but I was confused about the rest of this step-- it then says "Save the file, re-compile, and upload the code to the Arduino board." What is being recompiled at this point? I assumed this meant that any open sketch would now use these parameters or something (in my case I had the read_eeprom sketch open as per the tutorial) and you can just re-hit "compile and upload".

I have the same Funduino clone that mironto is using in the tutorial-- so since it is relatively cheap (and maybe the QC isnt very high) I probably should check with the test eeprom. I was just hoping to get away without having to wait for things to show up in the mail... rolleyes.gif

at least I didn't damage the tv
post #10897 of 11159
You need to exit Arduino IDE before editing the twi.c file. Open the file, comment the lies, save. Then launch Arduino IDE. Open sketch. Compile and upload to Arduino. Connect to TV.

Hopefully this will fix the issue.
post #10898 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

You need to exit Arduino IDE before editing the twi.c file. Open the file, comment the lies, save. Then launch Arduino IDE. Open sketch. Compile and upload to Arduino. Connect to TV.

Hopefully this will fix the issue.

ok great, thanks, will give that a shot.
post #10899 of 11159
@audiodane, I'm in. I have a European GT20 but I believe it's all the same.
post #10900 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

@audiodane, I'm in. I have a European GT20 but I believe it's all the same.

Can you check the back of the TV under the black plastic cover, if you ha both A17 (20 pin) & A18 (11 pin) connector, or just the A18 one?
post #10901 of 11159
Hello, I have a 46G10, this Arduino is correct for the operation?

http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-469690577-arduino-uno-rev3-_JM

Thanks!
post #10902 of 11159
Yes, that Arduino is the exact model I used in the guide.
post #10903 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

Yes, that Arduino is the exact model I used in the guide.


Thanks Mironto!

And this?

http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-470129758-24c64-a24c64-24-c64-24-c64-memoria-eeprom-64-k-bit-dip8-_JM
post #10904 of 11159
The one you need is M24C64. I don't uderstand the description but I don't think A24C64 speaks I2C.
post #10905 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

@audiodane, I'm in. I have a European GT20 but I believe it's all the same.

 

Thanks for the feedback Elix!  Working on code right now, actually..  Hope to be debugging first prototype hardware in the coming week.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post


Can you check the back of the TV under the black plastic cover, if you ha both A17 (20 pin) & A18 (11 pin) connector, or just the A18 one?

 

This really does help greatly if you have a chance to answer that question-  I have limited data on non-US models.  It seems the vast majority have both connectors, and two people so far have indicated that they have A17 only and A18 only.  I may just have to figure out a way to include both connectors.  The trick will be doing it elegantly without over-complicating and over-costing.  I'm actually postponing that decision for now and working on functionality.  "undo" functionality and thinking about selectable reset points.  (in case your set actually does need to be set to the first correction point rather than all the way back a zero.)  I don't have any evidence that this is necessary however, so I'm also wrestling with whether or not to spend time and effort on those features.  Part of me says that should wait for v2.  Part of me thinks people may not be happy if they buy one and 6 months later a newer version exists..  ...

 

cheers,

..dane

post #10906 of 11159
Hi Mironto-- Thanks for your detailed guide, it's great!

Now that you've reset your MLL timer and have had some time to let it change again, can you tell what those EEPROM bits mean now?

Thanks,
Craig
post #10907 of 11159
I wish I could decode them but no luck so far. But it's definitely operation hours and on/off cycles stored in those bytes. I already did a second reset and here is what I found out so far:

1st reset at 5264:00 hours:
0x13 0xc5 0x47 0x88 0x11 0x4a

0x11 0x4a = 00010001 01001010 = 4426 on/off cycles

0x13 0xc5 = 00010011 11000101 = 5061 which is close to 5264 h

The remaining bytes 0x47 0x88 must somehow make up those 203 hours (5264 - 5061)


2nd reset at 5346:00 hours (I did not reset the second counter so the actual hours between 1st and 2nd reset = 5346 - 5264 = 82 h):
0x00 0x4a 0x01 0x2c 0x00 0x6c

0x00 0x6c = 00000000 01101100 = 108 on/off cycles

0x00 0x4a = 00000000 01001010 = 74 which is close to 82 h

The remaining bytes 0x01 0x2c must somehow make up those 8 hours (82 - 74)

If any of you will be doing reset, please note the actual hours from service menu and the values read from EEPROM so we can get more data to help decode the algorithm used for storing the hours.
post #10908 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

I wish I could decode them but no luck so far. But it's definitely operation hours and on/off cycles stored in those bytes. I already did a second reset and here is what I found out so far:

1st reset at 5264:00 hours:
0x13 0xc5 0x47 0x88 0x11 0x4a

0x11 0x4a = 00010001 01001010 = 4426 on/off cycles

0x13 0xc5 = 00010011 11000101 = 5061 which is close to 5264 h

The remaining bytes 0x47 0x88 must somehow make up those 203 hours (5264 - 5061)


2nd reset at 5346:00 hours (I did not reset the second counter so the actual hours between 1st and 2nd reset = 5346 - 5264 = 82 h):
0x00 0x4a 0x01 0x2c 0x00 0x6c

0x00 0x6c = 00000000 01101100 = 108 on/off cycles

0x00 0x4a = 00000000 01001010 = 74 which is close to 82 h

The remaining bytes 0x01 0x2c must somehow make up those 8 hours (82 - 74)

If any of you will be doing reset, please note the actual hours from service menu and the values read from EEPROM so we can get more data to help decode the algorithm used for storing the hours.

 

based on that information alone, here's an absolute stab in the dark (ha!)..

 

0x13c5 = 5061 hours

0x4788 = 18,312 minutes (or, 305.2 hours)

0x114a = 4426 power cycles

 

The total hour count would then be 5366.2 hours, close(r) to your 1st estimate.

 

0x004a = 74 hours

0x012c = 300 minutes (5 hours)

0x006c = 108 power cylces
 

The total hour count there would be 79 hours, also close(r) to your 2nd estimate.

 

The question is, how sure are you of your 1st and 2nd hour-count estimates?

 

IF the middle two bytes are minute counters, then you should be able to re-read your values after even, maybe, 15 minutes, and see the middle two digits changing.  Of course, this is a total guess and I could be absolutely wrong!  :)   It would make sense at least to count minutes, since loosing so many fractional hours over thousands of power cycles could really get any compensation algorithm thrown off pretty bad...

 

..dane

 

EDIT- to add:

 

Alternatively, the middle two bytes could be bit-split..  it only takes 6 bits to count up to 63 (enough to count up to 59 minutes and then reset back to zero).  The remaining 2 bits in the fourth byte could roll into the third byte, as follows:

 

0x4788 = 0100_0111_1000_1000

six LSbits = 00_1000, or 0x040 = 8min

remaining 10 bits = 0100_0111_10:

padded to 16bit = 0001_0001_1110 = 0x11E = 286 hours

 

 

So your two data points would be:

0x13c54788 = 5061hrs + 286hrs + 8min = 5347hrs, 8min

0x004a012c = 74hrs + 4hrs + 44min = 78hrs, 44min

 

 

or the reminder 2 bits could stand alone:

0x13c54788

0001_0011_1100_0101_0100_0111_1000_1000

or, regrouped,

0001_0011_1100_0101_0100_0111,10,00_1000

0x13c5,0x47,0x2,0x08

= 5061hrs + 71 hours + 2 hrs + 8 min = 5134hrs, 8min

 

0x004a012c

0000_0000_0100_1010_0000_0001_0010_1100

or, regrouped,

0000_0000_0100_1010_0000_0001,00,10_1100

0x004a,0x01,0x0,0x2c

= 74hrs + 1hrs + 0hrs + 44min = 75hrs, 44min

 

Just goes to show that we really need more information.  Being able to watch it "tick" would be great.

 

But all of this begs the question, do we need to know?  I suppose that all depends on if the anti-aging algorithm is really necessary or not..  And we may need a statistically large sample size to know that. :(

 

..dane


Edited by audiodane - 9/13/13 at 7:35pm
post #10909 of 11159
My first reset hours are pretty spot on, might be just a few minutes difference between reading the hours in service menu and reading the EEPROM values. Inthe second reset the difference is also really close, 5 minutes tops.

Sorry to spoil your calculations, but on the first reset I had 5264 hours. 5346 hours were at second reset. Also, it does not make sense to count minutes over 60. How would you then decide, what would be represented in hours counters and what in minutes? This would also make the code too complicated, making some modulo 60 calculations and adding to hours counter. It must be something simple with bit shifting.

One more thing: as I mentioned previously, on my european G10 I never saw any other minute values than 0,15,30, and 45. Maybe this is different on NA models and they show also full minutes? Could somebody with US set read the hours in service menu to check?
Edited by mironto - 9/14/13 at 2:04pm
post #10910 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

My first reset hours are pretty spot on, might be just a few minutes difference between reading the hours in service menu and reading the EEPROM values. Inthe second reset the difference is also really close, 5 minutes tops.

Sorry to spoil your calculations, but on the first reset I had 5264 hours. 5346 hours were at second reset. Also, it does not make sense to count minutes over 60. How would you then decide, what would be represented in hours counters and what in minutes? Thhis would also make the code too complicayed, making somemodulo 60 calculations and adding to hours counter. It must be something simple with bit shifting.

One more thing: as I mentioned previously, on my european G10 I never saw any other minute values than 0,15,30, and 45. Maybe this is different on NA models and they show also full minutes? Could somebody with US set read the hours in service menu to check?

 

 

Ha ha ha.. no worries Miro..  I had forgotten about you mentioning the counting in 15minute increments.  That actually makes a lot more sense to be because EEPROMs have finite write cycle limits (usually either 10,000 or 100,000 writes over their life), so storing minute-by-minute would be a bit extreme.  Hysterically, I also forgot that you were reading from the service menu before reading the eeprom values.  It's obvious now that I had no idea was I was talking about.

 

In a week or two when I hook back up to my TV, I'll try to remember to make some successive measurements.

 

sorry to have gone so far into left field with my last post..

 

..dane

post #10911 of 11159
I am not sure about those writes but I guess they are plenty for the life of the pannel. I think it was clktr who mentioned that he had the I2C master connected to the TV while operational and he saw the bits changing as seonds passed. I guess it does not matter after all, my guess is you could store any bits on those addresses and TV would figure out what the hours are as long as the number is high enough to trigger the rise.
post #10912 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

Can you check the back of the TV under the black plastic cover, if you ha both A17 (20 pin) & A18 (11 pin) connector, or just the A18 one?
There's no plastic cover frown.gif
post #10913 of 11159
Looks like you will probably have to take off the back panel to get to the service connector (if it is not located elsewhere on G20 model).
post #10914 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

I am not sure about those writes but I guess they are plenty for the life of the pannel. I think it was clktr who mentioned that he had the I2C master connected to the TV while operational and he saw the bits changing as seonds passed. I guess it does not matter after all, my guess is you could store any bits on those addresses and TV would figure out what the hours are as long as the number is high enough to trigger the rise.

 

Huh. Well times have changed.  At least on the M24C64, the write cycles have been bumped all the way up to 4 million.  I had no idea they'd gotten that good. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post


There's no plastic cover frown.gif

 

I'm not positive this is the same model, but avforums had the following picture posted on one of their threads..  It looks like there may be a plastic rectangle in the upper right region of the picture?  That may be a service port?  If anybody has a service manual for the gt20 we could find out where they are pretty easily.

 

..dane

 

post #10915 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiodane View Post

If anybody has a service manual for the gt20 we could find out where they are pretty easily.

Would this service manual help?
post #10916 of 11159
Audiodane.....any updates on your endeavor? I am jonesin' for one!!
post #10917 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwil View Post


Would this service manual help?

 

Yes, thanks!  Taking a quick glance, on the GT20B model a least, A17 and A18 have been renamed CN0101 and CN0102.  They're located in the top-right region of the A-board, as shown in the two diagrams (taken from the service manual).  One diagram indicates where the A board is in relation to the back of the TV, and the other is a diagram indicating where on the A-board the two connectors are located.  I think, looking at our previous images a few posts back, that the little black rectangle is in the right location to be concealing the access to these connectors.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Audiodane.....any updates on your endeavor? I am jonesin' for one!!

 

Thanks Gov! Are you checking my site (see link in sig line)?  I was on a business trip all last week.. The conference went fantastic, but I didn't have a single chance to work on the PMCv1.  I got most of the internal flash storage technique working on Sunday night though.  the I2C communication has a bug, it works in debug mode, but not in full speed mode.  I'm pretty sure what I need to fix, and I've got that on my list to do next. Wait, this should all be going on my site..  :)

 

Anyways, things are still moving along.  I had hoped to give myself a month, and have really tried hard to keep that, but it may slip some.  Life tends to do that when it's a side project. My wife doesn't want it dragging on forever though (neither do I), so I'm trying to get at least some work done every week.

 

I'll post another update later this week.  It's a busy work week though, so it may be later than sooner. But progress is being made.

 

cheers,

..dane

post #10918 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiodane View Post

Yes, thanks!  Taking a quick glance, on the GT20B model a least, A17 and A18 have been renamed CN0101 and CN0102.  They're located in the top-right region of the A-board, as shown in the two diagrams (taken from the service manual).  One diagram indicates where the A board is in relation to the back of the TV, and the other is a diagram indicating where on the A-board the two connectors are located.  I think, looking at our previous images a few posts back, that the little black rectangle is in the right location to be concealing the access to these connectors.












Thanks Gov! Are you checking my site (see link in sig line)?  I was on a business trip all last week.. The conference went fantastic, but I didn't have a single chance to work on the PMCv1.  I got most of the internal flash storage technique working on Sunday night though.  the I2C communication has a bug, it works in debug mode, but not in full speed mode.  I'm pretty sure what I need to fix, and I've got that on my list to do next. Wait, this should all be going on my site..  smile.gif

Anyways, things are still moving along.  I had hoped to give myself a month, and have really tried hard to keep that, but it may slip some.  Life tends to do that when it's a side project. My wife doesn't want it dragging on forever though (neither do I), so I'm trying to get at least some work done every week.

I'll post another update later this week.  It's a busy work week though, so it may be later than sooner. But progress is being made.

cheers,
..dane



Thanks! I will keep checking your site. Glad to hear things are still going well biggrin.gif
post #10919 of 11159

Well I'm officially reliably reading data from the TV directly after power-up.  I'll update my site next week with a full update because I'm going to be working on it more over the weekend. Here's the most recent values I read tonight:

 

0x177B 0x7E90 0x12DA

 

However, the service menu indicates the following:

Time: 6027:0 Count 4844

 

In Hex, 6027 is not 177B but rather 178B.

In Hex, 4844 is not 12DA but rather 12EC.

 

Hours count is off by 16 hours, the middle bits may account for some of that (don't know yet).

 

The power cycle count however is also off by 18 cycles, which is interesting.

 

Did I read somewhere that the hours and power cycle counts reported in the service menu are not from the panel eeprom but rather somewhere else (peaks, perhaps)?  Maybe that accounts for the difference.

 

Well, it's late, and we have a lot going on tomorrow.  So this will have to do for now.

 

cheers,

..dane

post #10920 of 11159
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiodane View Post

Well I'm officially reliably reading data from the TV directly after power-up.  I'll update my site next week with a full update because I'm going to be working on it more over the weekend. Here's the most recent values I read tonight:

0x177B 0x7E90 0x12DA

However, the service menu indicates the following:
Time: 6027:0 Count 4844

In Hex, 6027 is not 177B but rather 178B.
In Hex, 4844 is not 12DA but rather 12EC.

Hours count is off by 16 hours, the middle bits may account for some of that (don't know yet).

The power cycle count however is also off by 18 cycles, which is interesting.

Did I read somewhere that the hours and power cycle counts reported in the service menu are not from the panel eeprom but rather somewhere else (peaks, perhaps)?  Maybe that accounts for the difference.

Well, it's late, and we have a lot going on tomorrow.  So this will have to do for now.

cheers,
..dane

Looking forward to more of your findings! When you get it right and begin to build them for sale, put me down for the first one!!! biggrin.gif
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Plasma Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight?