Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 52

In case anyone's interested -- and is brave enough to zero out their hours -- I found the EEPROM line on my G15 that corresponds to On Hours:

Line 500

I am debating whether or not to zero these numbers out. I would sure hate to see my set rise above the .012ftL blacks it is now displaying (borderline gray to me eyes), so I am curious to see if this will prevent the bug from hitting my set. But, who knows if this (somewhat risky?) tweak will prevent anything, assuming I perform it every 100 hours or so.

Anyway, just thought I would post my EEPROM code line for any interested G15 owners out there.

Your black screen appears to be COMPLETELY black! I would imagine at .015ftL, your black screen glows a dark grey to the naked eye in a dark room. My .012ftL G15 is quite noticeable to me when displaying a black screen.

Do you consider your set to have a satisfactory black level? Just curious...

If the screen did not have any phosphorescence I would like that. But I don't think that is possible. Still with normal viewing in a dark room it looks pretty good. Could the black be deeper? Perhaps. This issue is very puzzling.

I am curious regarding your opinion of the contrast image (checkerboard) as well as the grayscale ramps and colour images. The white balance is off a bit since the camera was set to cloudy. Closest setting to 6500K. Still this is default THX mode.

Are we being fooled by the phosphorescence of the screen in a dark room? (Afterglow for lack of a better term) If I expose an night sky long enough I will eventually get a bright sky due to background light. All I am saying is with photos, we must use a baseline for image brightness and then lock in the exposure for every other screen image. This way our images will show a problem. A TV with rising black levels requires a meter reading to show details of any change.

That would be me.

I have approximately 1000 hrs on my G10 now and cannot be certain there's any difference whatsoever in my blacks. I remember distinctly what the blacks looked like when I first got my tv (glowing black) and I am 99% sure they still look the same. Of course this thread has tested my belief of that many times. So if they have increased, it's been a very gradual and slight increase unnoticeable to me.

I also might add I've on occasion asked the other people in my house if they could notice any change as well and after telling me I am nuts, they said no.


I also was wondering if maybe the risen black level simply makes the IR more noticeable. Of course I have no scientific reasoning to back up that idea, but it makes sense to me.

This thread is killing me. The prices on a 42S1 plasma are getting very tempting. I have to think that I, as a casual viewer and one who always has a light on while watching tv, would not really notice the change when it happens. It's good to hear that at least one person, Meteor|WAR has not perceived the change.

Meteor|WAR, out of curiousity, what is your viewing environment like? Forgive me if you've discussed it before.

i have 270 hrs on my tc42s1 and have not noticed a change either, its a Nov 2009 build date

antrojohn , think carefully about what you are going to do and its future implications....no one has any idea how the EEPROM codes are writen and their functions. we better assume that they keep the time to perform some functions in the future, and good or bad we dont know what exactly these functions are, therefore zeroing out values might have unintended consequences in future.... IMHO better to wait to see if there is a problem than report it to panasonic, worse case you get a warranty fix.

zeroing eeproms and then a problem appears later is certainly going to void your warranty.

If a change has even happened at all for me. I'm still not sure.

I usually dont watch any tv until after dark since I get home late, and I'll have one lamp on in my living room that is to the right of me when sitting on the couch watching Directv (I cannot see it's reflection on the tv). Also, I always watch movies in a no lights on setting. In other words, the room is generally always either dim or pitch black when the tv's on.

This might give a good idea of what I see: When watching a letterboxed Blu-Ray in the pitch black environment, I cannot see the tv's bezel at all but the letterbox bars do have a faint glow that I can see. But it's been like that since I first got my G10 and I certainly wouldnt call it gray like seen in some of the pics that have been posted in this thread.

[EDIT] One other thing, last night after getting an idea from someone on this forum I tried holding up a case to a Blu-Ray disk right up to the tv (about 1 inch away) with an all black screen with no lights on to see if I could read the text on the back. I could not.

[quote=Orta;17873481]Below are 2 blank input shots of the inflated G10 and uninflated S1. The "HDMI 1" label in the top left corner stays on for like 30 seconds or 1 minute then goes away--it did so for both pics. The difference in the IR/Phosphorescence between the two is obviously pretty striking. Whether there is a technical reason behind it or the significant glow just makes it 10x more noticeable, I don't know. You couldn't see it in person on the S1 either.

Oh how I wish my G10 looked like your S1! It used to look like that but not anymore. Thanks for the pics.

I will keep everyone updated with the results of my service call next Thursday.

Has anyone compared the images I've posted. I would appreciate your input. Are your blacks darker or lighter than what I am showing in the images.

I have read a good portion of this thread and several others, but the thing that interests me is if this is a widespread problem, wouldnt the display tvs at various retail stores be the most susceptible and wouldnt we (as consumers) or they (the sales people) notice??

I occasionally do some assisted sales work for Samsung (LED TV's and cameras) so I have a pretty good relationship with several of the BB's in the area and none of those folks have mentioned anything like this any of the times I asked them before I purchased my x1.

In addition, it seems fashionable to treat every sales person like a menial, sale chasing, idiot, but several of the folks I know are very knowledgeable and very forthcoming with consumers, so Im remiss to say that they know this issue and are just hiding it.

Every TV in any retail store is on a minimum of 12 hours a day, it wouldnt take long for an issue like this to show up and have them scratching their heads just like we are...

If you'll notice from the pics, the problem is only really apparent in very dark rooms with mostly or all dark images. Neither of which typically happens in a store scenario.

Understood although there is one caveat here. In a store they run the TV in DEMO mode and all of us are probably running in consumer mode as selected during the first startup. I wonder if this makes a difference.

and, not EVERY TV in this series has this problem, regardless of what you might read here...

I have a 65V10, October Build that came with v1.24 FW from the factory and updated to v1.28. I think I have only seen one report of a V10 having this issue so far.

I am at 762 hrs and my 100% windowed black still measures that same as when I calibrated it, at 250 hrs, it was 0.0087. Not saying that the black doubling won't happen, but it has not yet. The picture is still excellent.

Here are the original calibration reports, if you have not seen them: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post17704642 Currently, no further adjustments have been needed from the original calibration.

Mike

A german GW10 with black level bug showd some response to the clock reset:

It started today with 0,059 cd/m2 and ended after two hours at 0,047 cd/m2!

I will measure it again this weekend to see, if it has fallen to its usual black level by then.

IIRC, this is the very first measurement report that shows NO increase of MLL in sub 0.010 ftL range after pretty long hours of viewing. Good for you Mike. Can you keep us posted again after a while if you can? Thanks.

Hmm, maybe v10 is less susceptible to the problem?

BTW, i saw your cal report before and i thought yours was easily the best looking one among all 12G Pannys here.

I noticed you used a DTP meter. Would you say that's a pretty accurate one at low level readings?

Thanks Mike M!!! I appreciate all your input on the all the 12G threads!

Actually, I reported my readings on my 46G10 and 54G10 in this thread. My 46G10, which had about 700 hours or so, measured in at around .0024, which is what it measured (almost exactly) back when I calibrated it after about 150 hours (approximately.)

I will do another measurement of both sets again this weekend.

Hmm, 0.0024 sounds too low to me. That's really Kuro like. LOL. Could it be that your meter is not accurate? Are you still using Spyder3 that you used for the cal report earlier? I read that the cheap Spyder2 is pretty worthless at low level readings. Spyder3 is more expensive one but some users were not too impressed with it in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1194784

Anyway, do keep us up to date. THanks.

prolly meant .024.

Shouldn't the panel give off a little glow in a completely dark room? I can always see the bezel because it's a shade darker. In comparison to the bezel I would say my panel is very dark grey/light black. Would you say this is how it's supposed to look? Is it even possible for a panel that's turned on, with no input, to be pitch black in a completely dark room. In this situation, the bezel does look pitch black but I don't know if I should be comparing the panel to the bezel, as some on this thread are doing.

Thanks, my DTP-94 has always been more accurate than my Eye-One Display 2. This is also true in calibrating my NEC Monitor.

I take another measurement when I am over the 1000 hr mark and post it.

Mike

Yeah, .0024 sounds low to me also, but the reading was consistent, both for numerous repeated readings this time as well as getting about the same reading months ago when I calibrated the TV. I'm using the enhanced Spyder3 from Spectracal along with CalMan software.

Even if the actual value is a bit lower than it should be, the key is that it has not changed from what it was a few hundred hours ago. It is also different from what I read on my 54G10, so it is not like the meter just defaults to that value when it gets below a certain level of MLL. None of these meters - the Enhanced Spyder3, the meter that Orta used, etc. - are "great" at 0% readings. If you read some of the threads on, say, the Spectracal forums from some of the guys using more expensive meters, such as the Chroma 5 or i1 Pro, they say any reading below say 20% is going to be suspect.

But - the point is that I'm reading the same value consistently now as what I was measuring back when I first got the TV.

I got a little spooked after reading this thread and decided to try to get some pictures tonight, both alone and with some LCD monitors I have around. I have a 54" V10, Nov. 09 build date, FW 1.28, CO1's 37 ftl Custom settings. I ran break in slides for about 120 hours, and the set is probably at 300 hours now.

The pictures are in an archive linked below (18MB), sorted by the "test" if you will. Each folder contains pictures taken on a point and shoot Canon on Manual. I shot ISO 80-800 on each set. I left the exposure set to "0", but I don't know what that 0 corresponds to. I find that what I see is somewhere between the ISO100 and ISO200 pictures.

When I started taking the pictures I noticed I had some IR from SD viewing. I wiped for about a minute and it was gone.

I have an old (6 years?) Samsung SyncMaster 710t. It is apparently bright as hell, it comes no where near the V10. I show it alone and vs. the V10.

I also have a new (Summer 09) Samsung SyncMaster T240HD. It is from the "Touch of Color" line. I don't know if that means it's LED or fluorescent backlit. I show the default settings for the PC input and then with brightness and contrast turned to zero. The "low" settings are unusable as an actual monitor. I found though with those settings the black level was just barely above the V10, though the pictures show it a bit brighter.

There is also a set of the V10 alone.

I actually called BB to send a tech out tomorrow and they had suggested I take some pictures to try to show the tech, since they don't come out after 4 and my light control is poor. I'll still let them come and look at the pictures, mention this thread and ask if they report issues to Panasonic.

The archive:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/5owxs4

Is anyone who is measuring their blacks able to somehow calibrate their respective light meters ? Pretty much every meter I've used for whatever reason has left me suspicious of the truth ... ie. I'd get differing readings off of various meters.

The reason I ask is that some of these readings are so low that a meter that is off 10-20 % could be fooling people with their inaccurate readings.

I know its unlikely and impractical ... but wouldn't it be useful to have 2 meters on hand to double verify readings. Or are testers that confident in the meter's accuracy ??

jls.

Who makes that meter?

bob

The were originally made by Monaco, who was bought ought by X-Rite, makers of Eye-One.

The DTP-94 is still available from some retailers - just Google DTP-94. The drivers will work in Windows 7 64bit and earlier, don't know for the Mac.

Mike

My 50V10 now has 2000 hours. Checked my black levels tonight with a chroma 5 and i1pro meter and they are at .027. If I remember correctly the last time I reported my levels on here they were around .020. I will also say that my set has a wonderful picture and while viewing content I do not notice a problem with my blacks. My screen however is grey when taking measurements in a totally dark room.

Can anyone with the rising black levels post images of their G or V series screen showing the "Contrast" slides? The black and white checker board. I'd like to see the visible impact on the contrast range.

The human eye/brain combo is amazing at adjusting to low light levels. Including see the phosphorescent glow of a screen even after it is turned off.