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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 58

post #1711 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

Is this an early April Fools gag ? hahaha

If not, are these engineers Japan based ?

Was the bug likely still there in the 13G models ... ??

No april fools bro. dead serious
post #1712 of 11162
This is my first post, but I just wanted to mention something thats been bugging me.

I am leaning towards waiting for a 13g V25 Panasonic because of the pioneer technology and the 3D capabilities. However my concern is starting to mount for the 13Gs having this same problem. Which is born out of two basic logical assumptions.

1.) Panasonic is aware and has been aware of this problem and they may or may not fix it.

2.) If it is to be believed that they were largely unaware of this problem being so widespread, it makes me think that if they are just now recognizing the issue, there is a fairly high probability that it will be present in the 13Gs as well. Unless the ultimate root cause has something to do with tech that Panasonic will replace with Kuro tech and therefore the problem will be fixed by that sheer change alone.

If its scenario one. You would like to think that Panasonic is smart enough to realize that concern has been mounting and places like CNET and HDGuru will probably be encouraged to check for this problem this year and not fixing it will severely damage their reputation in the enthusiast crowd that makes up their base. But then again they may feel that the concern is relegated to only a few message boards and a minority of enthusiasts and are hedging bets that CNET and other places wont check for the rising blacks.

If its scenario two, one can only seemingly hope that the problem can be corrected with a firmware upgrade or is the result of some sort of tech that is going to be replaced with kuro tech that was devoid of this problem. Otherwise it would seem if they are just recognizing the problem and working on it, it is probably too late to change much in the early models because they are seemingly prepping for production and a estimated march release date.

I was really set on buying an HDTV soon. i have my money, my stand and my setup all planned, but this issue and the samsung buzzing issue has forced me to wait. But now im wondering just how long ill have to wait after the V25s come out til I know for sure this problem wont happen again. And if it does happen I dont know what ill do. I do know im really tired of my 36 inch CRT non-hd tv set though.
post #1713 of 11162
Great!!! Maybe you can tell these engineers to tell whom ever it is to relay that there is if fact a problem and that when people call in to complain that at least they have that knowledge up front.
I am guessing that most if not all the people we talk to when calling about this problem have no freakin idea what the hell they are talking about
BTW, kudos to you for your efforts!!
post #1714 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Great!!! Maybe you can tell these engineers to tell whom ever it is to relay that there is if fact a problem and that when people call in to complain that at least they have that knowledge up front.
I am guessing that most if not all the people we talk to when calling about this problem have no freakin idea what the hell they are talking about
BTW, kudos to you for your efforts!!

I do not know how it will take but these 2 guys that are working on this issue called me a couple times about what was going on before they were going to do anything. Thanks to some people on here who stated what was happening, I was able to tell them exactly. Then just today I was told that a head engineer was going to be on the line with me when they called to discuss. The convo went for about an hour and it seemed to go pretty well and they were def looking into getting a firmware fix. Lets just hope it happens. I do not even have this issue but I feel bad for people that do and I DEF do not want this happeneing to me down the line. It was funny cause the 1 engineer was asking about all the forums and to send him an email with them all on there. So its seems there serious
post #1715 of 11162
If they get this fixed i will be first in line to buy this years V10 or the new V25. Hopefully they get to see this thread and realize they have some potential customers that are dead serious about buying if they can ensure me and others that we dont risk having our brand new TVs look like a bottom of the line LCD you could have bought 3 years ago.
post #1716 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I do not know how it will take but these 2 guys that are working on this issue called me a couple times about what was going on before they were going to do anything. Thanks to some people on here who stated what was happening, I was able to tell them exactly. Then just today I was told that a head engineer was going to be on the line with me when they called to discuss. The convo went for about an hour and it seemed to go pretty well and they were def looking into getting a firmware fix. Lets just hope it happens. I do not even have this issue but I feel bad for people that do and I DEF do not want this happeneing to me down the line. It was funny cause the 1 engineer was asking about all the forums and to send him an email with them all on there. So its seems there serious

THanks for your efforts.

I wonder if Cnet guy calling Panasonic about it has something to do with the seriousness on their part.

BTW, I assumed Panny plasma tvs are engineered in Japan. What could they do here in US???
post #1717 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonm1010 View Post

This is my first post, but I just wanted to mention something thats been bugging me.

I am leaning towards waiting for a 13g V25 Panasonic because of the pioneer technology and the 3D capabilities. However my concern is starting to mount for the 13Gs having this same problem. Which is born out of two basic logical assumptions.

1.) Panasonic is aware and has been aware of this problem and they may or may not fix it.

2.) If it is to be believed that they were largely unaware of this problem being so widespread, it makes me think that if they are just now recognizing the issue, there is a fairly high probability that it will be present in the 13Gs as well. Unless the ultimate root cause has something to do with tech that Panasonic will replace with Kuro tech and therefore the problem will be fixed by that sheer change alone.

If its scenario one. You would like to think that Panasonic is smart enough to realize that concern has been mounting and places like CNET and HDGuru will probably be encouraged to check for this problem this year and not fixing it will severely damage their reputation in the enthusiast crowd that makes up their base. But then again they may feel that the concern is relegated to only a few message boards and a minority of enthusiasts and are hedging bets that CNET and other places wont check for the rising blacks.

If its scenario two, one can only seemingly hope that the problem can be corrected with a firmware upgrade or is the result of some sort of tech that is going to be replaced with kuro tech that was devoid of this problem. Otherwise it would seem if they are just recognizing the problem and working on it, it is probably too late to change much in the early models because they are seemingly prepping for production and a estimated march release date.

I was really set on buying an HDTV soon. i have my money, my stand and my setup all planned, but this issue and the samsung buzzing issue has forced me to wait. But now im wondering just how long ill have to wait after the V25s come out til I know for sure this problem wont happen again. And if it does happen I dont know what ill do. I do know im really tired of my 36 inch CRT non-hd tv set though.

I heard that, for 13G models, Panny has decided change from "Infinite Black" to "Now you see, now you don't black".

Seriously, your points are all reasonable to me.
post #1718 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

THanks for your efforts.

I wonder if Cnet guy calling Panasonic about it has something to do with the seriousness on their part.

BTW, I assumed Panny plasma tvs are engineered in Japan. What could they do here in US???

I do not know to be exact.. maybe they take whats happening here and relay information to Japan or one of the guys on the phone could have been japanese. If he was he did not have a heavy accent. HAH. They did really seem to listen to me though. This has been a ongoing with panny for about a week now and they finally got the one person available to be on the phone.
post #1719 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonm1010 View Post

If they get this fixed i will be first in line to buy this years V10 or the new V25. Hopefully they get to see this thread and realize they have some potential customers that are dead serious about buying if they can ensure me and others that we dont risk having our brand new TVs look like a bottom of the line LCD you could have bought 3 years ago.

If there is a fix I willl be buying as well.
post #1720 of 11162
Hi everyone. I bought my 42G10 back in June. I used break in slides for first 200 hours, of course during that I watched couple movies in darkened room. The black bars were so black that they almost blended with the bezel. Then one day I was watching movie in bright room and black bars seemed very grey. I convinced myself that light in the room was just washing out the picture. In darkened room "black" appeared as grey as in lit room.

From that day on I wondered what happened to my tv. I have many times thought that I am just being paranoid but luckily some days ago I found this topic. My blacks are almost as grey as in my four year old notebook. Dark scenes look just absolutely horrible. Many times I try to convince myself that theres nothing wrong with the set, but everytime my jaw hits the floor when I see those grey "blacks".
post #1721 of 11162
i thought i was just imagining things as ive noticed that my black level just isnt as good as it used to be.

i got the set in july 09, the black level was only visible in a dark room with a completely black screen, now the black level is visibly gray even during the day, with mixed content.

anyway, im glad they acknowledge that there is a problem and hopefully theres a fix.

should i call panasonic and complain or is it too late?
post #1722 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I do not know to be exact.. maybe they take whats happening here and relay information to Japan or one of the guys on the phone could have been japanese. If he was he did not have a heavy accent. HAH. They did really seem to listen to me though. This has been a ongoing with panny for about a week now and they finally got the one person available to be on the phone.

Hi great work!! I don't have this issue yet either but now that they are aware of the issue it would be interesting to see if it will affect all G10 owners as so far those with the problem seem fairly low? Certainly there are folks with 1000+ hours will perfectly functioning black levels. Perhaps you could ask them this if you speak to them again.
post #1723 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by snarfbot View Post

i thought i was just imagining things as ive noticed that my black level just isnt as good as it used to be.

i got the set in july 09, the black level was only visible in a dark room with a completely black screen, now the black level is visibly gray even during the day, with mixed content.

anyway, im glad they acknowledge that there is a problem and hopefully theres a fix.

should i call panasonic and complain or is it too late?

I would call, its never too late to help out your fellow avsforum Panny owners.
post #1724 of 11162
This all sounds encouraging!

Who knows, between this and the THX fix, I could really love my 42 inch G10!
post #1725 of 11162
I've recently been hit with this grey/black bug too! I have loved my G15 since I picked it up in October and for the past couple weeks I've been noticing that the blacks looked a lot lighter than they used to be. I was thinking that maybe it was just me until my girlfriend said something to me about the picture not looking as vibrant and more washed out. I switched to my Dark Knight bluray and sure enough, the wonderful blacks that we used to have are now an off black grey, making the picture feel washed out. Without nice blacks, the colors can't seem to pop off the screen like they should.

I searched the internet since I tried all kinds of settings that didn't help and came across this thread. Like everyone else has said, the Dark setting would just destroy the picture and other changes would not restore the beautiful blacks that we had when we got the set.

I'm going to be contacting Panasonic customer service to at least lodge a complaint, and it if gets worse, to have them replace my set. I had hoped this forum thread was just people being to picky but not any longer! Glad to hear that there is a potential fix being worked on. Let's hope it's not just them placating us.
post #1726 of 11162
hopefully they will look at G11 too px80u, because i am affected too
post #1727 of 11162
The $64,000 question is ... is the bug even REVERSIBLE ?

I can see a firmware fix for new pdp's (with zero hours) being a relatively uncomplicated s/w change ... but making the same firmware counter the effects of a bug that has already done damage over time ... double trouble I say (-;

hmmmm ... that's a tough one ... maybe a BOTH a board swap will be necessary with a s/w update will be needed ...

Just thinking out loud here.
post #1728 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoC View Post

Hi everyone. I bought my 42G10 back in June. I used break in slides for first 200 hours, of course during that I watched couple movies in darkened room. The black bars were so black that they almost blended with the bezel. Then one day I was watching movie in bright room and black bars seemed very grey. I convinced myself that light in the room was just washing out the picture. In darkened room "black" appeared as grey as in lit room.

From that day on I wondered what happened to my tv. I have many times thought that I am just being paranoid but luckily some days ago I found this topic. My blacks are almost as grey as in my four year old notebook. Dark scenes look just absolutely horrible. Many times I try to convince myself that theres nothing wrong with the set, but everytime my jaw hits the floor when I see those grey "blacks".

I would send exactly this information through the support section of the Panasonic website.

Ask them to forward it to their engineering department for a firmware fix. You don't even need to schedule a service call as there is no actual fix available yet.
post #1729 of 11162
I had a meeting once with a lead engineer of one of the largest computer companies and he said that unless they get a certain number of phone calls about a specific issue the won't do anything about it. He said they pretty much entirely ignore internet postings but if they get lots of phone calls to tech support then they start working on a fix. It's phone call that make them take notice, not message board threads with lots of views/replies. If you have the issue then you need to call Panasonic and get it in their system.
post #1730 of 11162
Great news. We all thank you for your efforts. Is there any way you could ask them what their position/status is on the THX fix. There is a lot of conflicting info coming from the customer support people.
post #1731 of 11162
Guys, I've posting here for the past few weeks and my black levels changed 2 weeks ago.

Something extremely strange just happened and I don't really know how to explain it.

I have an SD card in the G10 with the 120 break in slides. There are several slides that range from gray to black. Before the black level change, I would run a slide show and when the black slide came up, the screen would go almost completely black. In a completely dark room, it would be hard to tell that the tv was even on.

After the change, running the same slides, when going to the black slide, it would stay gray. That's how I first noticed the change. The black slide would no longer make the screen black, it would say grayish.

That gray even in completely dark scenes was the new constant black level.

Just now I was curious and ran the slide show again and somehow the black slides are completely black again. The screen goes dark and I can't tell it's on the same way it was before the change.

Before the change, the black levels that I got on movies through the blu-ray player in dark scenes were similar to the black level on the black slide, the bars would almost get lost in the bezel.

Somehow the black level that I'm getting from the SD slot showing the black slide has gone back to what it was, but the black level on HDMI 1 is still the gray after the change.

I KNOW this all sounds ridiculous and probably makes no sense, but I'm including some pictures. The first is the screen in a completely dark room and it's not THAT gray, the picture came out exaggerated, but the second picture where you can't even tell the screen is on is what the black slides were like before.

Just to clarify, the first picture is the black slide after the change. It went from black to obviously gray. Again, the picture came out much lighter than it actually is. My blacks didn't get that bad. The second picture however is the same black slide and what the tv looked like in a completely dark room BEFORE the change. You can't even tell it's on except for the red light below the screen. In the past half the hour, the same black slide went back to making the screen completely black. Then it went back to making the screen gray.

What the hell is going on?
LL
LL
post #1732 of 11162
If you are running the slides in "dynamic" (I don´t know if it´s called dynamic or vivid in us models) then when running a completely black picture the display actually shuts off, showing a completely black picture. So you still have the black level problem...
post #1733 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4t1 View Post

If you are running the slides in "dynamic" (I don´t know if it´s called dynamic or vivid in us models) then when running a completely black picture the display actually shuts off, showing a completely black picture. So you still have the black level problem...

But if that is the explanation, then why won't it shut off anymore? Because the tv isn't detecting a completely black image due to the increase in black levels?

The same day I noticed the black level change was the day the screen stopped turning off on the black slide...

More importantly, why did the screen suddenly start turning off again for 15 minutes and then go back to staying gray on the black slide?
post #1734 of 11162
im reading this thread with great attention and i would like to post my observation regarding the black level.

i've got a panasonic P42U10 with ~250hrs and some day it came to my attention that black level has been increased but only on hdmi2 which is connected to PS3 (hdmi1 is connected to a yamaha av amp and Popcorn hour).

On hdmi2 the blacks was the same as day 1.

after some experments i've discovered that the difference was due to 24p refresh rate on popcorn hour. Changing this to 60p got the same black level as PS3.

i've captured the effect on 24p/60p using split image on this overexposed photo.


left PCH@24p <---> right PCH@60p

the only explanation i can give is that 24p due to 96hz internal refresh cause the sustain voltage on panel to be less than 60p
post #1735 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I have been talking with a pretty high level engineer technician at panasonic that is fully aware of certain forums with this issue and he has stated that they are aware and working on this issue. I am about to call him back and explain what certain people have explained in this thread. It actually helped knowing someone at panasonic to get me to the right people. If anyone wants to chime in and have me ask the engineer something, please do.. thanks. I will be calling in 15 mins.

(When you talk to them again), how about: "Why do you unleash a known defective design onto the public?" If they claim they did not know about it, then "Why do unleash onto the public designs that have not been properly tested?"

Are they certain a FW update will fix the problem?
post #1736 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syed117 View Post

Guys, I've posting here for the past few weeks and my black levels changed 2 weeks ago.

Something extremely strange just happened and I don't really know how to explain it.

I have an SD card in the G10 with the 120 break in slides. There are several slides that range from gray to black. Before the black level change, I would run a slide show and when the black slide came up, the screen would go almost completely black. In a completely dark room, it would be hard to tell that the tv was even on.

After the change, running the same slides, when going to the black slide, it would stay gray. That's how I first noticed the change. The black slide would no longer make the screen black, it would say grayish.

That gray even in completely dark scenes was the new constant black level.

Just now I was curious and ran the slide show again and somehow the black slides are completely black again. The screen goes dark and I can't tell it's on the same way it was before the change.

Before the change, the black levels that I got on movies through the blu-ray player in dark scenes were similar to the black level on the black slide, the bars would almost get lost in the bezel.

Somehow the black level that I'm getting from the SD slot showing the black slide has gone back to what it was, but the black level on HDMI 1 is still the gray after the change.

I KNOW this all sounds ridiculous and probably makes no sense, but I'm including some pictures. The first is the screen in a completely dark room and it's not THAT gray, the picture came out exaggerated, but the second picture where you can't even tell the screen is on is what the black slides were like before.

Just to clarify, the first picture is the black slide after the change. It went from black to obviously gray. Again, the picture came out much lighter than it actually is. My blacks didn't get that bad. The second picture however is the same black slide and what the tv looked like in a completely dark room BEFORE the change. You can't even tell it's on except for the red light below the screen. In the past half the hour, the same black slide went back to making the screen completely black. Then it went back to making the screen gray.

What the hell is going on?

I'm just curious... what exposure and iso setting did you use for those photos?

I'd like to take my own pics or comparisons because my black levels seem to be pretty bad in a black room
post #1737 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

I'm just curious... what exposure and iso setting did you use for those photos?

I'd like to take my own pics or comparisons because my black levels seem to be pretty bad in a black room


Only experiment can tell ya, because cameras are very different. But you definitelly need using tripod or other good base for making these photos. Also dont use extrmem high ISO of your camera as it worsens PQ dramaticaly. Bigger exposures will not harm, while highest ISOs usually will show up in very noisy picture.
post #1738 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

(When you talk to them again), how about: "Why do you unleash a known defective design onto the public?" If they claim they did not know about it, then "Why do unleash onto the public designs that have not been properly tested?"

Are they certain a FW update will fix the problem?

There are hardly any consumer product today which has gone to production JUST as engineers have been designed (except maybe sony Qualia some time ago). Sounds stupid but thats the case.

For example, engineer carefully plans every single capacitor what a plasma television mainboard should use, so it should work properly - and for example - without buzzing issues. Then Economics, sales and marketing departments figure costs of that board. If they lower the specs of those capacitors, which engineer has been picked, they will lower the price xxx dollars. Capacitors will still work, but they MIGHT generate buzzing sound.

Same goes for every steps of production. End product could be very different what was designed at first. Usually this means big troubles if sh*t hits the fan after the production have been started (there were no design flaws in BillBox360 in the first place, but cost-cutting flaws). This can be the case of this black level issue, too.
post #1739 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by L7R View Post

There are hardly any consumer product today which has gone to production JUST as engineers have been designed (except maybe sony Qualia some time ago). Sounds stupid but thats the case.

For example, engineer carefully plans every single capacitor what a plasma television mainboard should use, so it should work properly - and for example - without buzzing issues. Then Economics, sales and marketing departments figure costs of that board. If they lower the specs of those capacitors, which engineer has been picked, they will lower the price xxx dollars. Capacitors will still work, but they MIGHT generate buzzing sound.

Same goes for every steps of production. End product could be very different what was designed at first. Usually this means big troubles if sh*t hits the fan after the production have been started (there were no design flaws in BillBox360 in the first place, but cost-cutting flaws). This can be the case of this black level issue, too.

That's assuming the engineers' designs do not make it to production. Perhaps they are making it to production.

Being in the electronics biz for ~35 years, it gets beyond frustrating to see the quality of consumer electronics (including PC components) get worse with each release. Long gone are the days of real quality control, real quality components, and, thorough testing.

In recent years, it's far more important for a manufacturer to get "their latest hottest product" out the door to beat their competition regardless of whether it actually works or not. Total disregard for workability, usability, bugs, problems, etc. "Let the customers be our test subjects". That way they can save load$ on testing procedures.

I have old mobo's, hard drives, cards, monitors, etc., from 15 or more years ago that are still working perfectly today. I have audio equipment and TV's from 35 years ago that were state-of-the-art back then with all the bells 'n whistles that are also still working perfectly. Yet today, you're very lucky if you get any new product that was not unleashed from the manufacturer that doesn't knowingly have something wrong with the BIOS, firmware, or other components that are faulty. You have to deal with a 10-15% DOA or failure rate right out the box. Then a 50/50 chance if it will even make it through the warranty period. Then, if they do make it through the warranty, they usually have a "time bomb" in them to self-destruct the day after the warranty expires. Pathetic.
post #1740 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I have been talking with a pretty high level engineer technician at panasonic that is fully aware of certain forums with this issue and he has stated that they are aware and working on this issue. I am about to call him back and explain what certain people have explained in this thread. It actually helped knowing someone at panasonic to get me to the right people. If anyone wants to chime in and have me ask the engineer something, please do.. thanks. I will be calling in 15 mins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zylch View Post

I don't know if you've already spoken to him, but if not could you ask if it would be harmful to keep resetting the clock to prevent the rise happening, as a temporary fix?

Rpresner,

Were you able to raise that question with them? If so, did they offer up any type of response?

Thanks.
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