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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 63

post #1861 of 10800
1/16/10 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj325is View Post

The repair place just called and said panasonic told them my set was within spec. They recommended I call panasonic support again and talk to them.

What do I say?

This is starting to piss me off

Ask them to forward the info to the engineering team.

Until a fix is released, I doubt very many service techs could identify this issue. It's not an easy problem to describe without proper equipment. Panasonic hasn't officially acknowledged it yet either as they are waiting for more complaints or more analysis by their engineering team.
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post #1862 of 10800
1/16/10 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by speck9 View Post

Ask them to forward the info to the engineering team.

Until a fix is released, I doubt very many service techs could identify this issue. It's not an easy problem to describe without proper equipment. Panasonic hasn't officially acknowledged it yet either as they are waiting for more complaints or more analysis by their engineering team.

If this issue is real, could it could qualify as false advertising? Panasonic touts the contrast ratios, and great blacks on their sets, but it doesn't stay that way very long. I could see a class action suit over this as happened to Sony over the SXRD woes. Has any credible review source tested the black levels on a brand new set vs. one with few hundred hours on it?
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post #1863 of 10800
1/16/10 at 10:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by L7R View Post

Any setting won't do anything in this black level issue.
Don't know if it's possible to add this to first post as this were asked numerous times in this thread.

I just included it, but I don't think many people read or check the OP.
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post #1864 of 10800
1/16/10 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I just included it, but I don't think many people read or check the OP.

My panel was replaced because of the poor black levels before and it worked but now after a few hundred hrs the black levels are now gray again. You should add that as well.
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post #1865 of 10800
1/16/10 at 10:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

My panel was replaced because of the poor black levels before and it worked but now after a few hundred hrs the black levels are now gray again. You should at that as well.

Lol yea I know, that has been updated since you first posted it.
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post #1866 of 10800
1/16/10 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

My panel was replaced because of the poor black levels before and it worked but now after a few hundred hrs the black levels are now gray again. You should at that as well.

I saw a V-10 on display at Magnolia the other day in a very dark display area and the blacks were awesome on it. (far better than on my 60u). One would have to assume that it has quite a few hours of use. Weird.
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post #1867 of 10800
1/16/10 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Lol yea I know, that has been updated since you first posted it.

Lol i must have missed it somehow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

I saw a V-10 on display at Magnolia the other day in a very dark display area and the blacks were awesome on it. (far better than on my 60u). One would have to assume that it has quite a few hours of use. Weird.

We still don't know if all 12G Panasonic's are affected or just some.
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post #1868 of 10800
1/16/10 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

Lol i must have missed it somehow.



We still don't know if all 12G Panasonic's are affected or just some.

True..and I saw several sizes of S-1's at Frye's the other day in a dark area and they had pretty dark blacks as well.
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post #1869 of 10800
1/16/10 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

FWIW, I tried this and I get 3 shades of black when first turning the display on. Light, med and dark. The display stays on dark until the picture comes up

I have a 12G P50X1 and it does the same 3 shades of black but then goes back to the lightest one. Ugh. These faded black levels and washed out color are killing me but I don't feel like dealing with tech support on a perception issue... (I don't have any measurement equipment or technical knowledge of the set).
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post #1870 of 10800
1/16/10 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I'm going to be calling the Panasonic tech again because the V10 that Panasonic sent is a clunker. It has a large dent on the right side, the box was torn up and put back together with tape (it was supposedly a new unit, I doubt it considering where the tape was placed) and the blacks are barely better than the G10 I had with raised blacks. The sticker said it was a October build.

I didn't really notice the dent until I checked the AR filter because of how it just didn't work, but after seeing that and then checking the box, combine that with the crap blacks, there is something up with the unit. Everything else works on it, it doesn't buzz loudly, the AR filter is fairly uniform, but the blacks are crap and it just feels like it was a refurb...

Panasonic is really disappointing me with all this crap, they were the only brand I considered safe to buy from, and now I am being forced to reconsider that position.

Did you check the tv's hours in the service menu?

If I were you that would have been the first thing I did once I suspected it was a refurb.
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post #1871 of 10800
1/16/10 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eve6MediaHQ View Post

I have a 12G P50X1 and it does the same 3 shades of black but then goes back to the lightest one. Ugh. These faded black levels and washed out color are killing me but I don't feel like dealing with tech support on a perception issue... (I don't have any measurement equipment or technical knowledge of the set).

You don't really have to have any technical equipment or deal with tech support as there is no actual fix available yet anyways. I definitely would not waste time with a service call or spend a lot of time on the phone trying to get something fixed that doesn't actually have a fix available yet (unless you really have a lot of free time to spend on it).

All i would do....

Contact Panasonic support through their website. Describe your problem as best as possible and ask them to forward your issue to the Panasonic engineering department for a firmware fix. Let Panny do all the messing around with the technical equipment and sort it out themselves.

Beyond that....there's been a few previous posts about contacting other websites and media that may have reviewed these sets and forwarding them similar info about this Panasonic issue.
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post #1872 of 10800
1/16/10 at 2:31pm
I have been reading, and see that a lot of people on here are having a problem just getting panasonic to send out a tech or the tech completely dissmisses the issue. I got around this by telling the panny rep that took my call for repair the last time i called, that i either wanted it fixed per my expectations, or they would need to replace or refund my purchase, and well mine is fixed at least for now, the tech guy came a couple days ago, put in the new boards(A board, SS board), and so for now im happy with the results. And for anyone who is wondering, this isn't some plucebo effect, i took pictures before and after and any can see the difference, i posted them on this thread a couple days ago.

So for anyone having trouble getting panny to take you seriuously or getting it fixed proplerly, well they respond better after you quite being so polite and just simply give them an ultimatom, or at least they did with me........
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post #1873 of 10800
1/16/10 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by speck9 View Post

You don't really have to have any technical equipment or deal with tech support as there is no actual fix available yet anyways. I definitely would not waste time with a service call or spend a lot of time on the phone trying to get something fixed that doesn't actually have a fix available yet (unless you really have a lot of free time to spend on it).

All i would do....

Contact Panasonic support through their website. Describe your problem as best as possible and ask them to forward your issue to the Panasonic engineering department for a firmware fix. Let Panny do all the messing around with the technical equipment and sort it out themselves.

Beyond that....there's been a few previous posts about contacting other websites and media that may have reviewed these sets and forwarding them similar info about this Panasonic issue.

Good idea. Here is what I wrote:

I have a Panasonic TC-P50X1 that I purchased in Nov. An issue has recently surfaced.

The blacks on the TV suddenly seem gray (not the inky black that they were out of the box), and the colors seem washed out. In a dark room on a black screen, there is a glow that wasn't there previously, hurting the deepness of the black.

This is a bad surprise given the marketing info here: http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/us201...tml#new_neopdp

saying the Viera technology helps to "achieve deeper, richer blacks that give images exceptional depth and presence."

Known issue?

(It is a little choppy since I had to keep it under 600 characters).
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post #1874 of 10800
1/16/10 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eve6MediaHQ View Post

...In a dark room on a black screen, there is a glow that wasn't there previously...


Is this really true though? I mean my < 100hr 42G10 has a little glow and is brighter than if off with a black still picture (from sd card) when in a dark room. Isn't this normal?
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post #1875 of 10800
1/16/10 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by modiGTI View Post

I know most people will say if you don't have this issue, you shouldn't worry about it. The thing is, I don't want to take a gamble. I asked for a pick up since my return period is going to end soon.

The last thing I want is to have this jump, and waste my time calling Panasonic over a new TV that shouldn't have this problem in the first place. While I do enjoy the PQ right now, it would really piss me off if this happened.

You are putting way too much faith in an anonymous internet forum. Good thing they didn't recommend jumping off a cliff.
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post #1876 of 10800
1/16/10 at 6:01pm
guys come on!! Panasonic wont do nothing about it. They dont know how to cover the issue with lies over lies. Maybe maybe the next generation of panels will be better since they bought the pioneer technology. They need be be hurt like they hurt us with their deep blacks
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post #1877 of 10800
1/16/10 at 6:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbee68 View Post

You are putting way too much faith in an anonymous internet forum. Good thing they didn't recommend jumping off a cliff.

Who knows, if I keep the set, I may never come across this issue but this is not a risk I'm willing to take, especially if I'm still within the return period. Personally, when I browse forums, I check user feedback on the product and the common issues it might have. This is one big problem I don't want to deal with.
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post #1878 of 10800
1/16/10 at 7:06pm
Well I for one am shopping for a plasma and Panasonic was my choice. Either a V10, G10/15 or even an S1. But now I think it's off my list for the time being. Hopefully Panasonic is following this issue and aware that it's gonna hurt their bottom lines. Big Corps need to realize that in these age, they can't hide problems from consumers.
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post #1879 of 10800
1/16/10 at 7:43pm
Here's a pic of my G10 in complete darkness.

Shot at 200 ISO, 2.8 Aperture, 2s exposure, to match Orta's settings here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=820

My panel has only 390 hrs on it. EDIT: just remembered I did a factory reset 3 months ago. If this resets the clock, I am probably closer to 1000 hrs total.

In my opinion, its black level seems to fall somewhere between Orta's S1 and his G10. Of course, his is further along hours-wise...
LL
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post #1880 of 10800
1/16/10 at 7:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wesbc View Post

well i for one am shopping for a plasma and panasonic was my choice. Either a v10, g10/15 or even an s1. But now i think it's off my list for the time being. Hopefully panasonic is following this issue and aware that it's gonna hurt their bottom lines. Big corps need to realize that in these age, they can't hide problems from consumers.

+1
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post #1881 of 10800
1/16/10 at 8:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by modiGTI View Post

Who knows, if I keep the set, I may never come across this issue but this is not a risk I'm willing to take, especially if I'm still within the return period. Personally, when I browse forums, I check user feedback on the product and the common issues it might have. This is one big problem I don't want to deal with.

I understand your line of thinking. I'm not sure, however, that this problem is "big" in terms of the percentage of units affected or the magnitude of the issue itself for the average viewer. In my mind, you've achieved the hardest step in the ownership process: finding and configuring a unit that looks good to you in your specific viewing environment.

If you start trying to search for a model with an unblemished record on this forum, you're in for a long search. My G10 has a ton of hours on it, and I haven't had a recognizable issue with black levels or THX mode. As an avid amateur photographer, I tend to be extremely critical of brightness, color, and contrast. I realize that this single data point is somewhat useless, but I thought that I would pass it along nonetheless.
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post #1882 of 10800
1/16/10 at 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

Here's a pic of my G10 in complete darkness.

Shot at 200 ISO, 2.8 Aperture, 2s exposure, to match Orta's settings here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=820

My panel has only 390 hrs on it.

In my opinion, its black level seems to fall somewhere between Orta's S1 and his G10. Of course, his is further along hours-wise...

here's mine playing the black slide on the SD break in images using identicle settings for camera and cinema mode on tv


just for comparison I measured the RGB levels in photoshop of ortas, yours, and mine

Orta's read R:36, G: 31, B:54(which is because his is a blue tint)

Your's read R:34, G: 36, B:33


Mine: R34, G:38, B:39


0,0,0 is absolute black and 7, 17, 16 is what his S1 read at



the worst thing is I know the panel is capable of phenomenal blacks because here's using vivid(I'm not sure but this may just turn the pixels off which is why it's so dark)

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post #1883 of 10800
1/17/10 at 6:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

here's mine playing the black slide on the SD break in images using identicle settings for camera and cinema mode on tv


just for comparison I measured the RGB levels in photoshop of ortas, yours, and mine

Orta's read R:36, G: 31, B:54(which is because his is a blue tint)

Your's read R:34, G: 36, B:33


Mine: R34, G:38, B:39


0,0,0 is absolute black and 7, 17, 16 is what his S1 read at



the worst thing is I know the panel is capable of phenomenal blacks because here's using vivid(I'm not sure but this may just turn the pixels off which is why it's so dark)


As someone with Photoshop, you of course know that this numerical comparison of different shots taken under different conditions with different cameras and settings is meaningless. Any photographer can make gray look black, white, or gray, without much effort at all.
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post #1884 of 10800
1/17/10 at 6:28am
Is .008 ftL considered to be expected at 0% IRE? As a user with equipment, my set measured at .069 ftL at 950 hours. I wish I would hava had the equipment to measure at time of purchase.
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post #1885 of 10800
1/17/10 at 6:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotmad View Post

Is this really true though? I mean my < 100hr 42G10 has a little glow and is brighter than if off with a black still picture (from sd card) when in a dark room. Isn't this normal?

It used to be a darker black... I can tell because of when the screen is starting up when I press the power button it scrolls through a few levels of black and settles on the "grayest" one. Everything on my set just looks washed out now instead of being as vivid and deep as before - I'm pretty sure this is because of the blacks being grey.
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post #1886 of 10800
1/17/10 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbee68 View Post

As someone with Photoshop, you of course know that this numerical comparison of different shots taken under different conditions with different cameras and settings is meaningless. Any photographer can make gray look black, white, or gray, without much effort at all.

the minute differences between cameras will have very little affect

really only the white balance will affect the picture which is why orta's is so blue

2 different cameras using the same settings will look 95% identicle(aside from the image quality)


I have about 8 different digital cams including 3 SLRs myself
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post #1887 of 10800
1/17/10 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post

Is .008 ftL considered to be expected at 0% IRE? As a user with equipment, my set measured at .069 ftL at 950 hours. I wish I would hava had the equipment to measure at time of purchase.

.008 is good, .069 is not.
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post #1888 of 10800
1/17/10 at 9:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD1225 View Post

.008 is good, .069 is not.

Oops... My bad, my set measures at .069 cd/m2, which is .02ftL (I forgot to change the measurement mode). .02ftL is a touch over double the .008 that this set has been reported at, so that would leave me to believe my set did lose its black level.
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post #1889 of 10800
1/17/10 at 10:06am
This whole issue sucks. Wish I would have just bought a Kuro at closeout prices last summer. The blacks on my Panasonic look good when there is bright content on the screen, but during a movie if there is a low light outdoor scene or someone walking through a cave I can barely make out what is going on because the blacks look foggy. I guess I've just turned into a black level/contrast snob. I can just imagine watching the show "24" tonight when the 8th season premieres and how much more enjoyment I would get out of it with those inky Kuro blacks. Oh well, one of these days I'll stop being such a stingy bastard and actually spend the money on something I want for once.
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post #1890 of 10800
1/17/10 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

This whole issue sucks. Wish I would have just bought a Kuro at closeout prices last summer.

I feel the same way. It was really difficult for me to find a Kuro retailer in northwest GA. I still love my plasma I just hope Panasonic can fix the issue.
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