Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 64

If Vivid has the best blacks, maybe Panasonic should release a firmware that makes that mode more usable...

Vivid manipulates your eyes with brighter light only(more contrast), but this not gona help very much in dark scenes.

Sorry to hear that your mll has reached 0.020 ftL. Yeah I believe you have a black level issue. You have a g10, right? What meter did you use? Didn't you do a calibration about a month ago? What mll level did you get back then?

My fwiw - I think it may be tricky to compare a measurement on your set at 0% with what someone else gets at 0% with another meter, etc. The reason being that measurements at 0% are very finicky and vary from meter to meter. A professional calibrator with high end equipment which he/she keeps NIST certified is one thing; an amateur like me with a several hundred dollar consumer level meter is another.

The ideal measurements are before and after with the same meter. My numbers on my two sets come out pretty low, perhaps too low to believe the absolute numbers are accurate, but they have kept steady (so far.) I'll keep measuring to see when/if they change.

someone sounds really bitter.....fwiw i think its nuts that ppl (modiGTI) return TV's to preempt a problem that is not certain. than again if it doesnt cost you anything (except your time) i guess thats ok. what TV will you replace it with though?

After the black level rising for the second time on my set IR is becoming an issue, if i leave a static image for no more than a minute or two i get IR and ghosting that won't go away til like 15 minutes of regular content viewing.

I will be calling Panasonic about this tomorrow and hopefully something will be done. I have already had four repairs done on my TV i think asking for an exchange or refund isn't to much to ask.

Got my 42 G10 6 weeks ago and now have ~150 hours on it. I've set the 'custom menu' (and tried all the others) so that the set looks good on outdoor scenes (and have tried every setting I could find on the net), BUT on indoor scenes it is very dark (ESPN HD or example)! My Vizio 42 plasma and 37 LCD look perfect on the same scenes. Is this a warranty issue? Seems many people are having some sort of issue. When I looked at the 50 G10 in BB, it looked fine. Feelin like I got ripped off!

Was that reading taken with the LT or the Pro?

EDIT: Sorry, didn't read the following posts about the cd/M^2.

Larry

If you are in fact using settings recommended by others, you probably have a warranty issue. This is not normal behavior. How does it look if you select "Reset to defaults" in the Setup menu and use Standard or Custom mode?

Other than exposure, contrast settings, tone curves, and sharpening, I completely agree with you. In a darkened room, the camera will try to expose the foreground (the screen in this case) as 50% gray, so the settings, shooting mode, and metering mode will have a tremendous effect.

The results from different people under different conditions are truly meaningless.

but since all the shots were at 2s, f/2.8, iso 200 the only other thing that would truly affect the light output is the exposure compensation.... granted this can have a fairly large affect

There was no exposure compensation... that changes shutter speed or aperture from what the camera "recommends". The specs above are identical for all three shots.

The only real area of potential difference is in post processing, but I think we are all trusting that the images shown here are straight from the camera (except resized).

Yes, I have 50G10. I measured this time with the i1 Pro/Display 2 combo using Chromapure. The calibration a month ago was with the i1 Pro and HCFR, so I would not really trust the mll level at that time. I also never took a series of consecutive measurements with the meter, so I do not have a feel for the accuracy or consistency at that time.

Both! Taken with Chromapure using the i1 Pro as the reference meter and the Display LT as the field meter.

Do you get a different reading if i1 Display 2 is used without training? Many i2D2/LT (without the training) measurements I've seen on this forum are clustered around 0.014 or 0.015 ftL at least for the s1 series.

I also have a i1 D2/LT. FWIW, I got 0.014 ftL last month at around 200 hr mark. No measurement from earlier time. Still getting 0.014 ftL at 400 hr mark.

its good to hear your blacks havent risen, my 42s1's blacks measure .014 too

I'm also using the i1 Pro as a reference and the i1 LT as the field meter but with HCFR. They sure do complement each other.

Larry

Cinema
Vivid


but I suspect vivid is turning off backlight to the pixels to make it so black

So changing from the "light" setting to "dark" setting does absolutely nothing to the picture on the screen at all? If so, this is something to show the tech's when people call them out for service

Light vs. Dark doesn't change the darkest black that the screen can produce.

All "Dark" does is take things that should be low intensity (maybe 5% or less) and make them all pure 0%. Of course, if 0% blacks are still elevated, you're not gaining anything here, just losing detail in low-intensity areas where now all the blacks are "crushed."

Thanks for the that. Are you speaking from first hand experience? If not, maybe some one who has the problem can chime in here. I do not have elevated blacks on my V10 and when I change from "light" to "dark" there is a very significant noticable difference that anyone can see. I am wondering if this is as dramatic a change with the displays exhibiting the elevated black levels? If is not then maybe this can be pointed out to the service tech's upon their inspection of the problem. What I am getting at is it might be easier to prove there is indeed a problem with the display if changing between light and dark is not a big difference. Maybe a better argument can be then be made that the display is not operating the way it is designed to from the company.

Here is a result of measuring of black level of my used two weeks Panasonic 42U10.
Used equipment and software: Spyder 2 with HCFR.

Black level: 0.059 cd/m2, white level: 74.98 cd/m2. Contrast 1271:1.

Here is a result for my Apple Cinema Display 23":
Black level: 0.364 cd/m2, white level: 110.83 cd/m2. Contrast 304:1.

42U10 has a different type panel than G10, and I don't know what is a normal black level for U10.

Thats right. This function is rather useless as it makes no advantage to waching any kind of content, except of black slides of course, if someone likes them .

well dangit
i had thought that a g10 might be a nice set for the basement
it has just excellent excellent reviews everywhere you look
and the demo models i've seen look great

but this thread makes it seems like it isn't worth buying
is this really true?

No. There's still no tangible proof that the problems discussed in this thread represent the majority of G10 panels.

The G10 may have some issues, as all tv's do, but it's still among the best choices out there. I believe the issues seem inflated because of the tv's popularity.

As stated before, changing the black level from "light" to "dark" does not effect MLL on the G10 in any way. It didn't on the 11G PZ85U I owned either. It does nothing more than crush shadow detail. So there is a difference when running a black slide/no input on the V10?

Also, my Vivid mode does not cause my panel to "shut off." Is this something restricted to a particular regional build or something?

I know full well that there is no perfect set, but I know what they are capable of making. My Panasonic 42px75 is 100% uniform, so I expect the same from the current Panasonic sets (which I have finally found in the 54V10) I know that LCDs should not have two massive dark pillars where the 4:3 bars start (all three Sammies had these) And I know that black levels should not take a massive jump. (both G10 units did this on three occasions (second G10 was fixed with a A board swap, for about 150 hours) and I know that a Kuro should not buzz like a beehive. (even with power save 2 enabled) so I do expect some level of quality from HDTV makers.

My V10's blacks have improved slightly around the time I hit 100 hours, but I am going to wait and see if my blacks decide to jump or if they steadily rise over time. (I think that they match my G10 before the jump now) So far the V10 is the best display that I have had (yes, better than the Kuro, because blacks aren't everything, but they do matter) If my black levels fail to rise and the 2010 Pannys aren't impressive, then I will probably keep it. If they do rise, I will get Panasonic to swap it out for a 2010 Panasonic this summer. (even though it has a dent, it is still the best set yet, and I love that one sheet of glass look) If only the AR filter was better at blocking ambient light. (bright days make the set unwatchable, dark scenes have zero detail to them)

My Vivid mode has never had the "infinite black" feature either. I don't know what that's about. I've never cared.

As for Gov's question though... I now understand what he's getting at. I'll have to go try it out myself. Here's why:

If the MLL is raised by the initialization voltage, but the entire image's brightness isn't increased, theoretically, that bottom 5% or so may already be "crushed" by the initialization voltage (that is if we haven't re-adjusted the Brightness setting since the black level increase). So perhaps, the difference between Light and Dark may become 0 at some point. I'm not sure we're there yet, or if such a situation could be negated by bumping the Brightness up 5 clicks... But it's worth looking at.

There truly must be something amiss with some of these sets from the photos.

Looks exactly like what happens to my old Zenith plasma when I adjust the calibration and cannot get through the window patterns on AVIA without a black level shift. If the calibration is off the background brightness flares at either the 3rd or 4th window, depending on other factors. The shift is so strong I can see full images from the previous Menus of the DVD and the User Menu of the Set. When I can get through the windows from 10 IRE to 100 IRE without the shift, it's all good ... at least on that score.

Sorry for the folks who are having trouble but I must say you guys have saved me from snatching a 54V10 as they are phasing out of production. Don't want ANY headaches following an online purchase like that. Have decided to wait for the V25 in the hope these kinds of issues may be a thing of the past.

Yes, exactly my point!