Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 69

agreed. don't get me wrong this does seem like a legit issue, especially with the info d-nice gave, but I think some people also just have unrealistic expectations for what the black levels should be like. we need more measurements. absent that, panasonic probably isn't going to really look into the problem and will just replace components or tv's for the people that have it to the worst degree (ie really noticeable change in blacks, huge increase in IR).

According to patent #20090021452, the critical level happens when the set reaches 1000h of use (and beyond).

It gets 1000:1 less contrast since when you first used the set.

Here's a little review:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/r...isplay_lt.html

For the price is pretty good, but I still prefer Eye-One Pro (IMHO).

I had just about decided on the G10 over the Samsung plasma line because of the black levels.... Now, it seems this is not a benefit of the Panny. Has anyone heard of any similar issues with the Samsungs?

one guy reported similar and then it was resolved. i have had a sammy 860 for about a month without any lightening

Except D-Nice mentioned that this problem affects all 2009 panasonic models...

So I either buy a Samsung and get a buzz, or get a Panasonic and get a cheap LCD. What a wonderful choice.

As respected as he is, his word does not equal tangible proof. AFAIK it's not first hand knowledge. He gets information from other professionals in the industry.

Dont know about you but I need more to believe it's a defect affecting 100% of the panels, especially when mine still looks fine.

Do you need a new TV right now?

Just wait for the 2010 Panasonics. They should be better all around.

I didn't notice elevated blacks right away. However, the increase IR was pretty drastic (and disheartening).

I was going to buy one in the next month or so. I'd be more tempted to wait if Panasonic admitted there was a problem AND implemented a fix. The problem with waiting is 6 months ago, the G10 was perfect. It took until the end of 2009 for the IR and black level problems to really manifest themselves. So there's no guarantee that I wait until May, buy a 2010, and then won't have the same exact problem 6 months later.

This is an incredibly long thread, and it's simply not possible for me to thumb through every post. I'd be interested to see data comparing models, length of time owned, and if the owner has noticed a significant lightening after a certain period. If we can get these numbers into a spreadsheet or graph it could prove to be very useful.

Well, in order to provide that information, someone will have to thumb through every post and compile it. Since you're the one who wants that info, why don't you do it? Is your time more valuable than someone else's?

I was thinking something more along the lines of a new thread which contained a poll with clear cut answers.

G Series over 6 months with NO black level problems
G Series over 6 months WITH black level problems
V Series over 6 months with NO black level problems
V Series over 6 months WITH black level problems
S Series over 6 months with NO black level problems
S Series over 6 months WITH black level problems

I guess I can make a thread like this to collect information.

Those 3 issues are huge.. But if your set does not have them, which is the case on mine, then this TV is what I expected and more. I completely understand if people are angry but people have to understand that this is not the THX issue which was probably an easy firmware fix. Maybe panasonic knows of this issue affecting a very small percentage of owners and is trying to fix it. But maybe they cant fix it using firmware or maybe it takes a good amount of time to find a fix if they can. Like I said before it has not happened to mine, but some people need to realize or understand what black levels were SUPPOSED to be on your TV. you buy a U series panasonic and expect super dark blacks you are going to be dissapointed. There is nothing out there that is complete black in a dark room. The Kuro tech has been the best but even my pro -141 with no bias lighting showed grey hint on black bars. With the price I paid for my V10 there was not a better TV in my opinion out there. But going into it i knew what black levels were going to be. And yes if they changed it would create a problem. If its such a problem you need to get proof to panasonic... just yelling at them and explaining will get you knowhere in my opinion. When you get a case number you can email them. if its that important you need to measure your black levels and sent it to them.. i do believe they should know where the black levels should be at. So far I have only see ORTA(i could be missing someone) that has proof..

I might have missed it but has Panasonic ever stated what an acceptable range of black level measurement should be for the G10?

Yep, it seems to be happening with my G15 now. When I first got it the sidebars were very black and pretty much blended in with the bezel. Now I see a noticeable difference between the two. My Sony LCD sidebars are blacker. I just checked and was hoping it was my imagination, but it's not.

As someone else said, I probably wouldn't have noticed unless I saw this thread. The picture still looks good though. Without the sidebars I don't really notice. As long as it doesn't continue to lighten I won't worry too much about it. I plan on getting a better TV anyway when technology and prices improve.

I also think I'll stay away from Panasonic next time and stick with Sony. I've never had a problem with any Sony TV I've owned. I've had four Sony's and every one was in perfect working condition when I got rid of it. I just replaced them with larger TV's and eventually flat panel.

Probably not but the contrast ratio is affected by this and that is something they have stated numbers for.

If they have stated this, I have never seen it and have never seen it reported by any of the more knowledgeable calibrators or insiders.

I am afraid that Panasonic would not publish specific black level measurements as this could lead to legal problems for any unit not meeting a specific measured level. Plus, as dNice has stated, if the voltage must increase at increments over time, the levels may continue to shift. Hopefully not to the degree as noted over these posts and definitely not after only 200-300 hours use as this is probably less than two months for a typical user.

I went back and skimmed through every page of the thread and it seems most people started noticing the change after 300-500 hours. Same thing in my case as I noticed the change just after 500 hours of use.

Like others have said, if you have the problem you will know it. I remember seeing dark scenes on my TV when it was brand new. I watched nothing but full screen content and most of it was blu-ray. I can specifically remember in National Treasure 2 where the character is in the dark with a flashlight quite a few times and the blackness of the cave really stuck in my head. All I could see was the bright glow of the flashlight. This is also when I noticed phosphor lag

What is interesting is that I no longer see phosphor lag in dark scenes. I also don't stare in awe at the deep blacks since they are now gray. When the set is showing a black screen my room is illuminated as though I have a small lamp turned on. I hardly believe that this is normal for a plasma since quite a few of the newer LCDs have excellent blacks. My HP LCD monitor has about the same black level as my brand new plasma.

Does anyone have proof of black level rising on the v10's.. I know donnymac stated he may have issues but his repost stated that his blacks were fine. So at this point I have not seen anyone with actual proof on a v10, only speculation and camera pictures(which mean nothing). It seems to me that the G series seems to get hit most on this issue.. wow maybe there was a good reason to spend more money on the v10..

I have never said my blacks were fine. I said my blacks had doubled as read by a meter and with a black input my screen is grey. I did say that when watching actual content it still looks pretty good which should not be taken to mean that I am content with my tv. I also have the THX problem and I am patiently waiting for Panasonic to come out with the THX fix in a few weeks. If that does not work like the 1.28 update did not work then I will start the process of either getting them to fix my tv or replace it.
Unfortunately for the rising black level problem it doesn't seem like they are going ot do much about it. They finally acknowledge that it exists and they are working on a fix. They knew there was a problem with THX even before everyone started complaining which is evident by the fact that they started shipping fixed displays around August. So at that time they knew what it took to fix THX and here we are 5 months later and we are still fighting.

My bad... thats how I took it on the 2000 hours update... I wish I could see a side by side comparison between our sets.. I have about 700 hours or so on it and i believe my blacks and overall picture are better...

Any word from Panasonic's engineers Rpresner?

So when you are watching a Blu-ray, lets say Blade Runner, because I know it has very good black levels, is your V10 able to reproduce deep black in those night scenes? With your own eyes, does it look darker black than the blank input that you have measured?

From what I understand about plasma technology, this totally makes sense. As you increase the voltage on the cells, they start to fire spuriously more often (hurting black levels), but they also respond much faster.

This seems to make sense. So why can you not just recalibrate for this when it happens? That makes no sense to me

If this were the case, wouldn't that mean all plasma televisions have an increase in black levels? So far I'm only hearing about the Panasonic G series.

+1

love posters who think they're entitled to info from volunteer posters...

Looks like if the reviewers would've waited a few months, the tv would've went from an 8.7 to a 7.0.

Funny thing. I switched my G10 over to a no signal input and turned it off. When I turned it back on, the black level started out pretty dark. Then after maybe 2 seconds it "bumped up" twice. Then it went back down. Then back up again. It wasn't gradual, but bumped up and down very quickly. Then it stayed at that "brightest" setting.

I dunno if my set is impacted or not. It seems like black video is darker than "no signal" black, so I'm not that worried about the no signal black level. But certainly in general if there is an issue I hope they fix it so it doesn't get worse as the set matures.