Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 78

Thanks for that. Thought I had a definitive answer there for a while

btw A thread has started at DTV in Australia on the very issue referencing this thread, which is the one for any Aussies to keep an eye on. Apparently there have been reports of similar problems but none measured, hoping for some links to get to the bottom of this before the free wii runs out...

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=86117

Totally agree amazing BS by Panasonic, the main reason I was looking at them was for their superior blacks over a LCD but this is the one thing they are having a problem with.

my 50g10 with ~ 100hrs in a dark room looks to be about the 200iso pic, although I do not have IR and colors are not washed out. Now, thats with a blank input

I would assume that Pana execs would be weighing up the cost difference between potentially admitting there is a fault and paying out the costs associated with whatever fix that may be suitable or the potential loss of revenue associated with lost business with not fixing the problem at all and then having customers not buy their products again. Unfortunately, whichever is cheaper may see a lot of Pana Viera owners very unhappy.

For example lets say a FW update doens't cut the mustard.. and then ALL pana plasmas have to be recalled globally and then fixed, the cost would be unimaginable. I'm not sure about Pana's financial status but it could potentially ruin them or at least push them years behind other brands.

Its just such a bad situation for everybody involved. I really hope that a solution can be found that allows everybody to at least be happy.

Set up my tv on the 4th of Jan.Have a gorgeous picture with deep blacks on my 54G10.Have another week to make my decision on keeping this tv.I babied the set so far...low contrast and bright settings.after 120 hours use I played MGS4.left a nasty IR took several days to clear.Then I played it again the other night for 15 minutes and the IR was back strong as ever.I understand IR to be cumulative.Correct? It was even visible during normal viewing this time,if the right color field was behind it.Is this a precursor for what is to follow?I know it seems to be in reverse of what others have found.My black bars still look deep,almost the color of the bezel.
I drive an 2005 Prius ( no problems Knock...)T++ota now is in deep $***,I don't want the same thing happening with my Viera.Can't even sell my car now,but the Pana can go back,and probably will.Anyone shed some light on IR first,then blk lvls.Is this normal behavior and I am just worrying too much.
Thanks,
Looking for a crystal ball.

I wonder if this will be an issue in the '10 series as well, such as the G25.

You are dead on I believe.

the way the v10's and other pannys sell now, i do not think they will lose any profit from the newer sets... they will sell like hot cakes and even though this forum is reporting these issues, i guarantee there sales will not be affected for the 2010 models.. this forum represents such a small percentage of owners. it would be funny to see if ORTA never posted this topic what would have happened.

I just got an email back from panasonic after asking them about the supposed fix next week

this is what they said

Someone else would have. After experiencing this issue I went searching for answers and found this thread. If there wasn't one I would have created one. I doubt that the course of events would have been radically different from there.

dnice,

if you can answer this question please do.. i know you said it affects all 12gs(black level rising) panels, but does it effect every single tv(like it will eventually happen) or is it hit or miss(only certain panels will see this).

the reason i am asking is my set has not changed after 750-800 hours and my friend has a 65 v10 and has about 1500 hours with no change..

i agree there is an issue but i think a lot of people think they have an issue and maybe dont.. like just being paranoid and constantly looking for it. for example when people say there set all of the sudden has a glow with no input... it always will glow in a all dark room. Its almost like people want a fix even if they dont have a problem. then maybe the firmware installed will make there black levels better than what the TV should have.

Sorry jumping in late. I think people are interested in this because they don't want to worry about their black levels rising even if they are fine now. It kind of takes away from the enjoyment of the TV imho.

58" S1 owner currently without the issue... I think.

i understand what you are saying and i hope it does not happen to me.. my biggest thing is whether or not it def affects every tv or just some of the 12g line up...

My set eclipsed the 1000hr mark on Tuesday and today, after the success of the THX firmware upgrade, I still have bad news to report.

Prior to 1000hrs, my set consistently measured at .018 ft/L with Chromapure, using the Display LT as the field meter and i1 Pro as the reference. Today, at 1020 hrs, my set consistently measured at .029 ft/L. I couldnt wait to report the validity of the THX firmware and I wish I had only positive things to say, but instead I think I have just confirmed that 1000 hours is the time anyone with a meter will see measurable difference in black levels.

50G10, July 2009 manu date. 1.28 FW, THX field tech FW upgrade, Black Level problem!!!

Now, how does it look with Blu-ray content on the screen?

Yesterday, D-nice told you not to make a bet on your black level being unchanged because you *will* lose the bet. I take that as all sets in use are *already* affected by some amount of black level rise even though you may not have noticed the initial change (possibly because we were just running the break-in slides?). Like I wrote yesterday, measurement data supports that. Clearly, many owners here are experiencing much worse rise than others. slosvt is the latest owner to get hit (with a second rise probably) and things are not looking good now IMO.

Panasonic better come out with a fix soon. I don't see how anyone here would drop thousands of dollars on a '10 Panny knowing about this issue.

I have a 42 inch G15. I'm not sure if I have this rising blacks issue (I'm not particularly sensitive to black levels, but in my opinion they look great on this set in comparison to any LCD I've seen, although I'm probably a little brighter on a blank input than the 100 ISO photo, thought not by much), and I've only got about 300 hours on the set at this point, but I DO have IR with the set. I've received mixed reactions on these forums, some people saying that they get no IR whatsoever after gaming for 8 hours straight (which, if true, I'm extremely jealous, and somewhat suspicious that they are never actually taking a close look at their panel), and some people say that what I'm experiencing isn't IR but static discharge or some such, and nothing to worry about. Whatever it is, an image is retained in my screen for quite a long time, sometimes days. I also get somewhat more temporary IR from menus and such on the TV when I'm selecting inputs and whatnot. It's not usually visible at normal viewing distance, even on a blank input, and never when watching regular content, but it's there, and I know it's there. Would a firmware update potentially fix this, as well, seeing as many people are linking the rising blacks to increased IR?

well we will see.. The only true test for me is my eyes.. i think i would be able to notice a doubling in black levels. i have a couple friends who all have v10's.. none experience these drastic changes.. some have 1500 hours on there sets. by there designs, I knew after thousands of hours the black levels should rise some...my question is about the actual sudden huge rises... does that effect every TV? if thats the case then every single person who owns a 12g TV will be able to visually see the change and would complain....i think the doubling only affects certain sets.. i personally will never break in a plasma as I thnk its useless..

sodaboy581 and others Panny owners,

It would be a good idea to snap photos after the fashion described/shown in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1216428

It doesn't make much sense to snap photos of your display if you don't have a reference of some sort to compare at a later date. A laptop or your LCD monitor in front of or beside your plasma both showing a 0 IRE black is the easy way to assess whether or not your blacks are lightening as the hours age. Of course, be sure and record all the settings on your PDP and the reference display, and snap the phots in a pitch black room late at night.

For those of you who own the Dark Knight on blu ray.

The scene where Gordon is interrogating the Joker. When the there is nothing on screen but the jokers face in complete darkness. That's the scene I used to check how the black levels were when I first got my tv.

My brother was there with me and we were both blown away by how great it looked. The background was almost bezel dark and the Jokers face stood out against it.

After my blacks changed I went back to that scene and there is a night and day difference. Now there is a clear gray glow coming from the entire screen. It's horrible.

Unfortunately I have to confess that I have just cancelled my V10 order

I was really excited about getting this set and had been looking at it for a few weeks before finally taking the plunge, but after reading this forum and planning to do a large amount of gaming I decided it wasn't worth the risk.

I think that had Panasonic's customer care attitude been more proactive anywhere, not only in Australia but elsewhere, particularly North America, I would have been much more influenced and reassured that if something went wrong it would be fixed but I just can't take that chance with such an expensive item.

If Panasonic don't fix this issue, at least for those that have experienced it then I can only imagine that this entire debacle will continue to grow with more and more people being affected. I think by doing nothing to remedy this problem, Pana has allowed those who are affected to voice their concerns and notify a much larger section of the consumer marketplace than they may have otherwise done, who perhaps otherwise would not have really cared about this issue, but now knowing their sets may be affected will be looking out for this problem and will probably demand a fix when they eventually find it.

Basically 'give em enough rope and they'll hang themselves'.

I didn't even own one of these tv's and I doubt that I will ever buy a Panasonic Viera. Why would you want to trust them if their entire '09 line of Viera's contains a time sensitive flaw that drastically affects the core function of the product?! It's ludicrous.

Good luck to everybody who has these issues and I hope that you can get some sort of equitable resolution.

Isn´t it time to change the thread-title already? To something that at the very least includes all 12G panasonics!?

What is causing the shadows of the lamp and the TV in the higher ISO pictures?

the longer exposure is capturing more light and showing what's not visible to the eye normally.

Out of the box and after setup, my G10 50" looks like the ISO 80 shot. This set does black better than plasmas of the past but it certainly doesn't approach CRT blacks, but at this point I'm willing to accept the trade off because it does colors just as well if not a bit better and I love me some perfect geometry, something my 34" XBR910 could not do 100% uniformly across the screen (close but not 100%). Of course theres also the 50" factor.

I need to setup some bias lighting behind the set. I'm not so crazy about watching movies it in a pitch dark room, but I do it because during dark scenes I can see my reflection if there is a bit of light on me. The rest of the time I don't notice it. When there is light in the room or the scene being displayed isn't comprised of mostly dark colors you don't notice that the blacks aren't exactly black.

Whether this thread existed or not, I would notice a rise in black level, I hate LCD type blacks. Hopefully my streak of luck with my electronics purchases continues (knocks on wood). Just about every product I've researched before purchase has had some issue/horror story thread associated with it. So far I've only had to deal with DOA or products dying within the return period and those have been very few and far between.

Do S1 models have the same black problems?

+1

yes

***Update***

My set just passed the 1000 hour mark. I think is was like 1100 hrs. (54G10)

Anyway, I had grey blacks and image retention that would show the menu screen for a long time after they were gone. Last night I rechecked vs. my LCD. The image retention is 100% gone and the blacks are 100% darker than they were between about 300 to 1000 hrs.

The blacks may not be quite as good when new, but perfectly fine with just a little room lighting. The blacks also get darker as the TV warms up, but they seem to get brighter as you leave the screen black for a long time, but this could be due to my vission adjusting to the dark and/or the panel brightening as the components cool due to drawing low power.

Dnice told me that thing "would not improve with time", but they have. But will it last?

Is CATS on or off? That may explain the brightness changing.