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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 98

post #2911 of 11163
. Could not be any clearer. There are none so blind as those who do not want to see.

Once More; From Cnet:

"It also said that newer plasma TVs will include a "more gradual change in Black Level over time," but made no mention of a fix for existing plasma TVs, whose owners first noted the issue at enthusiast Web site AVS forum."
post #2912 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

I e-mailed Oprah.

You guys are killing me. Thanks for the laughs, takes away some of the frustration.
post #2913 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

People who think that they got a set that is not affected are just deluding their selves. Panasonic told Cnet, in writing, that their automatic brightness adjustment feature is set too aggressively in the 2009 models.
They say that the new models will "apply the voltage adjustments, in smaller increments". There is your smoking gun.

Read it for yourselves. No need to start lying to yourselves, and just try to whistle while passing the graveyard.
At the very least, Panasonic should issue a firmware download that will adust the voltage increments to the level they claim they have put in the 2010 models.

I think you're probably not understanding. I think we all understand that there is technology in the 2009 models that adjusts the voltage. There's no question about that. I think we all understand that the adjustment CAN BE too aggressive. But you probably don't understand that not every adjustment is always aggressive or that every adjustment doesn't seem to be happening at the same time.

Some peoples' sets seem to adjust after 100 hours, some 200, some 600, some 1000... It doesn't seem to be exactly following the spec posted earlier.

The problem seems to be when the adjustment either happens at the wrong time or the adjustment is too aggressive itself.

As with the nature of televisions and electronics in general, even if you buy 60 of the same exact model of something, you can probably guarantee that the insides of all 60 are not exactly 100% the same. There's probably variation of chips somewhere or programming slightly, one of these variations or programming in the Panasonic TV models is causing some people grief. As it's making their picture look really bad. But because not all the models are EXACTLY the same, not everybody has this problem.

Nobody is deluding themselves. Some people get the problem, some don't. Everybody gets the voltage adjustment. (I don't know why this was needed in the first place, but obviously Panasonic thought it needed to be in there) As to when it happens and how bad is a toss up in regards to your set.
post #2914 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

People who think that they got a set that is not affected are just deluding their selves. Panasonic told Cnet, in writing, that their automatic brightness adjustment feature is set too aggressively in the 2009 models.
They say that the new models will "apply the voltage adjustments, in smaller increments". There is your smoking gun.

i read Panasonics reply and don't see where they are admitting that the voltage changes are too aggressive. I only see that they are spreading out the same voltage changes in smaller increments in the 13G sets. They're just making it less noticeable, but essentially doing exactly the same thing as the previous years sets.

One of the arguments in this topic is that the voltage change in 12G panels may actually be too aggressive and changing prematurely in an unintended way. That's one possible explanation for the defective sets that Panasonic engineering should look into. As to whether they will... anyone's guess...
post #2915 of 11163
If it wasn't for worse input lag times on the Samsungs plasmas, I was seriously considering trading my 54G10 in for a 50B850.

The problem is so much more widespread than people would like to admit. The average consumer doesn't know and doesn't care enough to notice the change.

You want to hear something funny? I own a 2009 Camry as well.....
post #2916 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

. Could not be any clearer. There are none so blind as those who do not want to see.

Once More; From Cnet:

"It also said that newer plasma TVs will include a "more gradual change in Black Level over time," but made no mention of a fix for existing plasma TVs, whose owners first noted the issue at enthusiast Web site AVS forum."

If there's no fix for "newer" plasmas, why would there be one for existing plasmas?

"More gradual" means just that. The blacks will still degrade. It will only take longer.

Crap technology. Panasonic needs to hire new engineers or corporate spies to see what they're doing wrong.
post #2917 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC74 View Post

If there's no fix for "newer" plasmas, why would there be one for existing plasmas?

"More gradual" means just that. The blacks will still degrade. It will only take longer.

Crap technology. Panasonic needs to hire new engineers or corporate spies to see what they're doing wrong.


I am not convinced that the 2010 models that are already posted for pre-order, and are most likely already out of the plants, will have the new more gradual voltage fix.

The reason why I say that is because until Cnet brought the problem to the attention of Panasonic, very recently, Panasonic said they were not aware of the problem, and would look into it. If they were not aware of the problem, until just now; why would they even have had any reason to dial back the incremental voltage changes on the new 2010 sets. See what I mean?
post #2918 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syed117 View Post

The problem is so much more widespread than people would like to admit. The average consumer doesn't know and doesn't care enough to notice the change.

You know this, how? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd like to see some evidence. I'd say only a small percentage of people posting in this thread have the problem. And I bet you can count on both hands the number of people who have documented rising black levels with meters.

I'm only aware of one case where a Panasonic tech looked at a set and confirmed the problem. And they were willing to replace the panel or give the owner a full refund.
post #2919 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I am not convinced that the 2010 models that are already posted for pre-order, and are most likely already out of the plants, will have the new more gradual voltage fix.

The reason why I say that is because until Cnet brought the problem to the attention of Panasonic, very recently, Panasonic said they were not aware of the problem, and would look into it. If they were not aware of the problem, until just now; why would they even have had any reason to dial back the incremental voltage changes on the new 2010 sets. See what I mean?

I see what you mean. Even if the change is "more gradual", it's still a problem. It's not fixed. It's still going to happen according to Panasonic.

I don't care if it happens in two months or two years. If I'm paying this much for a TV I want it to remain just as black until it goes belly up. I've had my XBR6 for well over a year and it's on for around 12 hours per day, 7 days a week, and the picture is just as good as when I took it out of the box.
post #2920 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by easy_13 View Post

You know this, how? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd like to see some evidence. I'd say only a small percentage of people posting in this thread have the problem. And I bet you can count on both hands the number of people who have documented rising black levels with meters.

I'm only aware of one case where a Panasonic tech looked at a set and confirmed the problem. And they were willing to replace the panel or give the owner a full refund.

I can only guess he knows this because Panasonic said the blacks will lighten (a bit after the fact). The average consumer probably won't notice, but those really into home theater will.

I noticed mine due to the contrast between the sidebars and the bezel of the TV. There's most definitely a change after a short period of use.

I'm not sure how to check the hours, but I estimate it's been less than 1000. When I first turned it on my roomate and I were amazed at how black the bars were and how they blended in with the bezel. He confirmed today that they are much lighter than before.
post #2921 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by easy_13 View Post

You know this, how? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd like to see some evidence. I'd say only a small percentage of people posting in this thread have the problem. And I bet you can count on both hands the number of people who have documented rising black levels with meters.

I'm only aware of one case where a Panasonic tech looked at a set and confirmed the problem. And they were willing to replace the panel or give the owner a full refund.

Well, I think more people are affected simply because of the number of people on these forums. This is an enthusiast website and draws people who are either tech savvy or internet savvy enough to search and post on internet forums.

Consider the few dozen people that it's affected on these forums. Those few dozen are part of a fraction of people who would actually even think to post on internet forums. The people here aren't the average consumer.

Think of your close friends and family. We are the exceptions.

Four close friends and family members bought Panasonic plasmas after I bought mine. I know for a fact that none of those people would be able to notice the change. Ignorance might be bliss, but it's still ignorance. I haven't had a chance to visit their homes since they bought their plasmas, but I will definitely look for a change when I do.

If Panasonic sells millions of these plasmas in one year, how many do you think are bought by the ultra tech savvy? Today people are willing to read consumer reports and maybe even an online review or two. These plasmas have received universal acclaim and that's more than enough for the vast majority of people.
post #2922 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I am not convinced that the 2010 models that are already posted for pre-order, and are most likely already out of the plants, will have the new more gradual voltage fix.

The reason why I say that is because until Cnet brought the problem to the attention of Panasonic, very recently, Panasonic said they were not aware of the problem, and would look into it. If they were not aware of the problem, until just now; why would they even have had any reason to dial back the incremental voltage changes on the new 2010 sets. See what I mean?

It is certainly possible that the more gradual programmed increase in idle drive voltage for the new models had/has nothing to do with the problems documented/observed/discussed here. Panasonic plasmas for 2010 (at least the G and V series) are using a new cell structure, new phosphors and new gas mixture. It could well be that this new combination of factors led to the more gradual increase in idle drive voltage being programmed in. If that is the case, then it should be there from the get go. It of course remains to be seen, and probably will not be seen for quite sometime, whether the new panels are subject to the kind of MLL increase documented here.

Wes Sokolosky
post #2923 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I am not convinced that the 2010 models that are already posted for pre-order, and are most likely already out of the plants, will have the new more gradual voltage fix.

The reason why I say that is because until Cnet brought the problem to the attention of Panasonic, very recently, Panasonic said they were not aware of the problem, and would look into it. If they were not aware of the problem, until just now; why would they even have had any reason to dial back the incremental voltage changes on the new 2010 sets. See what I mean?

Yeah I do & it's a good point. If they changed it then they could have known there was a problem in the 09 models even though they act like it is news to them now. If this is true & I think it is when you consider D-Nice got some info early on about a voltage goof then I call BS on them.
post #2924 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC74 View Post

If there's no fix for "newer" plasmas, why would there be one for existing plasmas?

"More gradual" means just that. The blacks will still degrade. It will only take longer.

Crap technology. Panasonic needs to hire new engineers or corporate spies to see what they're doing wrong.

dude, this problem will not effect every set, but every model within the 11-12g plasmas. Yes people with the problem deserve there fix or new set. I am all for that. If it affected every SET and they all doubled i guarentee you there would be something out right now.
post #2925 of 11163
My point is this: Every 2009 12G panel has it's own thread on this board. Inside each of those threads there seem to be [slight exaggeration] hundreds [/slight exaggeration] of people who are testing their sets with meters and posting their offsets for others to use. These guys are literally testing their sets and tweaking them on a daily or weekly basis. I haven't seen many, if any, of them complain about rising black levels. I would expect these guys to report the problem long before someone who doesn't even know how to access the SM.
post #2926 of 11163
Personally, I see a problem as a problem, whether it be immediate or gradual. I don't think 'more gradual' is a good selling point for 2010 panasonic plasmas. They're just saying it will take longer to happen, so hold your breath.

Oh well, what can you do? It's not like they're going to give you a refund so you can go with a company that doesn't have this problem. They'll just appease you with a 'fix' so it can happen all over again after the new components age.

I'm wondering if this voltage change is damaging the panel or if there can be a firmware update to officially fix it. Hopefully they'll work on this before they lose more customers.
post #2927 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsokolosky View Post

It is certainly possible that the more gradual programmed increase in idle drive voltage for the new models had/has nothing to do with the problems documented/observed/discussed here. Panasonic plasmas for 2010 (at least the G and V series) are using a new cell structure, new phosphors and new gas mixture. It could well be that this new combination of factors led to the more gradual increase in idle drive voltage being programmed in. If that is the case, then it should be there from the get go. It of course remains to be seen, and probably will not be seen for quite sometime, whether the new panels are subject to the kind of MLL increase documented here.

Wes Sokolosky

We need somebody, with deep pockets, to purchase one each of all the 2010 models, and run them 24/7, so that we can see what happens after 2,000 hours, so that we can find out what happens in time to determine if we should feel safe purchasing one, or not. and how I look with my HD shutter glasses on.

Perhaps people should contact Cnet, and urge them to run the tests, or we should push HDguru to run them, since he seems to get special access from Panasonic.
post #2928 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by easy_13 View Post

My point is this: Every 2009 12G panel has it's own thread on this board. Inside each of those threads there seem to be [slight exaggeration] hundreds [/slight exaggeration] of people who are testing their sets with meters and posting their offsets for others to use. These guys are literally testing their sets and tweaking them on a daily or weekly basis. I haven't seen many, if any, of them complain about rising black levels. I would expect these guys to report the problem long before someone who doesn't even know how to access the SM.

Sorry, but there have been plenty of users with meters that have calibrated their sets and noted the rising black levels (with data to prove). I've done an initial calibration on my TC-P58S1 and will be posting my data as well after my secondary calibration this weekend.
post #2929 of 11163
^ They must not post in the S1 thread then.
post #2930 of 11163
The cnet response certainly appears to be a declaration by Panasonic that a fix is not forthcoming.

We have all been sold Yugos, in the guise of Honda Accords. Such a precipitous, ruinous rise in black levels, and the concomitant changes to contrast and IR, cannot be viewed otherwise.

I'm done with Panasonic. I've always been a huge booster of their plasma displays, but no longer.

It's time to send in the lawyers; this is potentially a huge payday for some firm, and if we, the unfortunate owners, are lucky, perhaps we'll receive some small compensation for these sets that are, sadly, garbage.

Law dogs who are reading: you're looking at a class of, perhaps, a couple million people, at an average of maybe $1200 a set. The potential is astounding. Help us, please.
post #2931 of 11163
I'm absolutely disgusted right now... and that's all I'm going to say.
post #2932 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by curly21029 View Post

I'm absolutely disgusted right now... and that's all I'm going to say.

at who? i hope at panasonic. i have a tv that i paid over $1,000 for around 11 months ago and one of the main reason was the black levels. when i purchased it i could honestly say the blacks were pretty close to my crt rptv hdtv, but now not so much. not only are the black levels rising,but the IR seems to be getting worse. now i admit i only see this when there is no input but i feel it will progress into permanent burn in. i think a fix for the black level rise is not to much to ask and if panasonic does not provide one then they have lost me as a customer and i will not buy from them again in the future.
post #2933 of 11163
I expected the response but it is still a pathetic answer.

We represent maybe 1/100,000th of the percentage who even know about this issue. With Engadget and CNET blogging about the issue it of course increases awareness but not to the average consumer. Panasonic already has our money so the only group they are concerned with are their future customers. If they assure the voltage increase has been adjusted for the 2010 models then people will buy them.
post #2934 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper View Post

Sorry, but there have been plenty of users with meters that have calibrated their sets and noted the rising black levels (with data to prove). I've done an initial calibration on my TC-P58S1 and will be posting my data as well after my secondary calibration this weekend.

well, i counted SIX ppl (from the first post of Orta on this thread) where they have posted their ACTUAL meter measurements. the rest fall under the "my eyes have noticed the screen becoming grayer since i bought it). six is "plenty"?
post #2935 of 11163
i see it just got picked up by engadget and gizmodo:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/04/p...a-hdtvs-but-q/

http://gizmodo.com/5464704/panasonic...s-a-good-thing

This is definitely not getting brushed under the rug now.
post #2936 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsokolosky View Post

It is certainly possible that the more gradual programmed increase in idle drive voltage for the new models had/has nothing to do with the problems documented/observed/discussed here. Panasonic plasmas for 2010 (at least the G and V series) are using a new cell structure, new phosphors and new gas mixture. It could well be that this new combination of factors led to the more gradual increase in idle drive voltage being programmed in. If that is the case, then it should be there from the get go. It of course remains to be seen, and probably will not be seen for quite sometime, whether the new panels are subject to the kind of MLL increase documented here.

Wes Sokolosky

Those are my suspicions as well. Many people in this thread blame the voltage regulation software just because D-Nice called the aggressive voltage changes a "goof". However, considering the extremely unpredictable nature of the issue I believe the voltage regulation software is just the catalyst to the problem, the source of the problem is probably the panel itself. Who knows what design changes they made to get closer to Kuro blacks and decrease power consumption while increasing brightness at the same time ?

Their statement on Cnet sounds like a typical cover story. Earlier in this thread, people talked about Panasonic's patent where they applied voltage changes at 650,800 and 1000 hours. According to those plots, black levels are expected to change but certainly NOT drastically. The 2010 "gradual" voltage adjustments sound nothing but an attempt to hide the real problem and make the symptoms less noticable to the average Joe. I think anybody with some common sense should avoid 2010 models like a plague, it would be an extremely risky purchase.
post #2937 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by speck9 View Post

i see it just got picked up by engadget and gizmodo:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/04/p...a-hdtvs-but-q/

http://gizmodo.com/5464704/panasonic...s-a-good-thing

This is definitely not getting brushed under the rug now.

Thank god for this. Its spreading like wildfire. How can Panasonic not do something about this now?
post #2938 of 11163
This is great, they will forsure have to come out with a fix now.
post #2939 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

This is great, they will forsure have to come out with a fix now.

Yeah, and quick imo. The quicker they fix this, the better for everyone. I'd think they'd want to get this fixed before the 2010 models are released.
post #2940 of 11163
We got engadget now reccomending that anyone hold off on purchasing Panny plasmas now. We're set, and set soon probably before the 2010 models are released. This is no longer an "issue on AVS forum", it has spread to 3 MAJOR review sites. That Panny reply to CNET was the nail in the coffin for Panasonic.
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