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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 101

post #3001 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by t1337Dude View Post

How are you people checking your hours of use?

EDIT: And is there any of you who simply haven't had the black levels double yet?

Checking hours requires entering the service menu. Do so at your own risk:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=109
post #3002 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by moosekaka View Post

this thread is containing less and less useful info and more and more rantings.

+1
post #3003 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

To the many people recently joining the discussion....

The root cause of the issue has been well-discussed earlier in this thread. Search for the word "patent" and I suspect you'll find it.

Here's the basic-basic explanation, apologies if this over-simplifies the situation for some people's tastes:

The plasma cells continuously undergo a repeated cycle in order to control their intensity. First step: they are initialized. A small voltage activates the cells and prepares them for the next step. Then, step two: they are addressed. This step determines which cells will be illuminated in the third step. Third step, they are sustained. Voltage is applied to the panel to keep the addressed cells bright for the cycle. The the sustain ends, and we return to step 1 to prep the cells for the next addressing. This happens at 480 Hz on the 12G panels, and 600Hz for THX mode. (higher frequency increases color accuracy)

The issue we're discussing deals with the initialization voltage. The lower the voltage, the darker the black level of the panel. The problem is.... if the voltage is too low, and cells don't get initialized, they can't be addressed, and then can't be sustained. (they will not light up when asked to)

So... if the voltage drops below a certain threshold, the cells will misfire. This is a bad, bad situation.

So, it's easy: make sure the initialization voltage isn't too high, or too low.

Where the issue gets tricky is that that threshold is a moving target. As the plasma cells age, the voltage required for initialization increases. If the panel anticipates and matches this need properly, the black levels should not experience much rise. The point is to just tip the cells over their initialization threshold, no further.

With the Panasonic panels, it appears that the initialization voltage driver over-compensates for the rise and increases the MLL of the panel.

Basically, using bogus numbers:

Perhaps cells wanted 12V to be initialized when the panel was new. After 500 hours, now it's more like 13.5V. If you hit that 13.5 dead-on, they'll be primed, without negative effects on black level. If you hit them with 14V, you'll increase the black level for no good reason. That's basically what's happening here.

From what we've been able to learn, it sounds like the panel won't "catch up" with the voltage over time, because (based on Panny's patent information), eventually the necessity for voltage increases ends. The cells do not experience much further wear. (the voltage climb flatlines) Based on the patent, this may happen around 1000 hours, but it certainly depends on the specific panel design.

If at this point (1000 hours?) the initialization voltage is too high, it will likely ALWAYS be too high, even if it stops increasing.

Hope that clarifies the situation for some of the newcomers. If I've made any mistakes/errors/omissions, please feel free to correct/comment.

Thanks for the explanation, you should repost this often so it does not get lost in the mix.

The only part I find confusing is that the cells will not catch up to the voltage. If every panel ends up at the same voltage and the plasma cells wear up until a certain point, wouldn't all panels end up the same after both of those events happen.
post #3004 of 10829
^^^

Read around post 1096 for full details.

Basically, it looks like the cells age to a steady-state point. Continuing the above example with bogus numbers, suppose the cells start by needing 12 volts. At 500 hours, they need to be hit with 13.5 to behave the same way. (but the panel delivers 14). At 1000 hours, they need 14 volts, but now the panel's delivering 15.5. Still a problem.

Now, say the panel reaches steady state around 1000 hrs at 14v needed. Fast forward to 5000 hours. The cells still require only 14 volts to be initialized, but the panel, still working off it's 1000-hour bump, is giving 15.5.

For ever and ever until eternity, the panel will be over driving the cells by 1.5 volts. This means the black level rise, without a firmware fix, is pretty much permanent.

Does this make it clear?
post #3005 of 10829
I doubt it's gonna be so simple with the fix. My guess is that according to Panasonic's research, all cells should need after 500 hours 14V, after 1000h 15.5V.
BUT plasma in some (more or less) of the sets is a bit off the specs (or defective) and the cells require only 13.5V after 500h and 14V after 1000h (while other might require e.g. 13V and 13.5V), thus making some of the screens brighter. This would require Panasonic examine every set with higher brightness and adjust the FW or voltage levels for each set separately.
post #3006 of 10829
post #3007 of 10829
FWIW, I got my Eye 1 yesterday and I've measured my 58S1. It is consistently showing 0.008ftl on multiple readings. Didn't have much time last night to check, I am guessing I have ~300hrs on the panel. I will confirm later when running a grayscale cal.

I'm going to measure my 10 and 11g panels later tonight.
post #3008 of 10829
well it happened to me today. I've been following this thread and dreading it.

I have a 54v10 which looked great in the showroom, and have loved for the few months I had it. I'm not by an means a videophile, or completely understand a lot of the technical terms thrown around here (although I think I'm doing a decent job at catching up).

But I will state that as others have said, it's quite noticable. My picture is nothing like the reviews I read, or the tv I saw in the showroom, or the tv I've owned for the past few months.

I'd like to report how many hours are on it, but I'm afraid to enter the service menu for fear of voiding the warrenty (is this a valid fear?). The thing is, I'm not sure I've made it to 1000 hours yet, although I guess it's possible after burn in and leaving it on all night once in a while.

In any event, I find the picture quality completely unacceptable at this point. This is NOT the tv i originally bought. I'm heartbroken after spending so much time reasearching and so much money just to end up with this

Thanks to everyone here who brought this issue up, and the cnet guy (god bless you). I hope to god Panasonic can fix this. If not I'm demanding a refund. If that doesn't work out, I guess it's an expensive lesson, and I'll just have to eat the cost of this tv and buy something else, because I am not about to put up with this for the next 6 or 7 years.
post #3009 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

Where the issue gets tricky is that that threshold is a moving target. As the plasma cells age, the voltage required for initialization increases. If the panel anticipates and matches this need properly, the black levels should not experience much rise. The point is to just tip the cells over their initialization threshold, no further.

With the Panasonic panels, it appears that the initialization voltage driver over-compensates for the rise and increases the MLL of the panel.

Basically, using bogus numbers:

Thank you for that nice explanation of the underlying tech however I remain with my belief that the problem is not that of "bogus numbers". The problem appears to be that the moving target threshold is different from set to set. Why are there as many people on this thread who have not experienced a rise ?

Firmware cannot be expected to be predict the threshold for hardware that is not within spec or is behaving unpredictably for some unknown reason (the real problem if you ask me) unless the set is equipped with sensors that may allow the firmware to adapt to the situation. We already know from Panasonic's patent that fixed voltage charges are applied at fixed times so clearly the firmware is not adaptive.

If the issue were as simple as retyping a few "bogus numbers" Panasonic would not risk issuing such a cover-up statement.
post #3010 of 10829
If this is to be Panasonic's final answer to the issue then I feel they have made a huge mistake which could cost them a considerable amount in lost sales due to lack of confidence in what has been until now a premium brand.

They have known about this issue for around 6 months now & despite initially publicly denying it I feel sure they have been looking into it behind the scenes.
I suspect but obviously can't prove that it is not going to be possible to fix this issue with a Firmware update & that either a replacement set or at very least significantly redesigned main-boards will be required. This of course could potentially become very expensive, the answer therefore; call it a feature!

As I have said in previous posts the logic behind increasing the plasma drive voltage is sound after several thousand hours (not 500 hours!) however this should not be at the expense of black levels & to say that they will settle after a few years is frankly BS, "Settle" at what level?

It is clear that a design fault has occurred as the 2010 models are reputedly going to be better in this respect

Given that only a relatively few sets are currently affected in the UK gives credence to a fault rather than a "Feature" otherwise every owner will become affected by this "Feature" at some stage.

We buy these sets in good faith based upon reviews & company marketing saying they produce exception PQ along with very black blacks which is why we pay a premium (in my case £1500 or $2360 for a 50V10) & we end up with a set which produces charcoal grey after 6 months of use, this can't be right & should not be deemed acceptable by anyone, we could buy a mid range LCD & get similar results & have a load of cash spare.

I do hope Panasonic give this more consideration & realise the potential damage this could do to their brand/Sales. We have all seen what is happening to Toyota by being in denial, something which may take decades to get customer confidence back in their brand. Of course no ones life is at risk with the Panasonic problem, however their reputation is! come on Panasonic, do the right thing!
post #3011 of 10829
All of you who have not experienced a rise in your black levels should consider yourselves lucky. My MLL is currently at .027 ftl after being at .009 when new. My set is currently at 2100 hours. When I turn my lights off at night and put up a black screen I can read a book with the glow off my screen. The infinite black which is only available in vivid mode does not exist on my set anymore. If you put your set to a blank input and cycle thru the various picture modes when you hit vivid you should see a dramatically blacker background. This is the infinite black. On my set all modes are exactly the same. At 1300 hours I could still read .0000 ftl in vivid mode. Now it reads the same as all other modes.
I have put my call into Panasonic and have a case#. I have also been given the company line that they are investigating.
I would hope for the rest of you that my set is an isolated incident. If not then Panasonic has a big problem on its hands. Tripling of black levels after only 8 months is totally unacceptable.

P.S.: If you want to accuse me of ranting then I am guilty as charged.
post #3012 of 10829
Has this link been posted yet? If so, sorry for the double post...

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/04/p...a-hdtvs-but-q/
post #3013 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulr2006 View Post

They have known about this issue for around 6 months now & despite initially publicly denying it I feel sure they have been looking into it behind the scenes.
I suspect but obviously can't prove that it is not going to be possible to fix this issue with a Firmware update & that either a replacement set or at very least significantly redesigned main-boards will be required. This of course could potentially become very expensive, the answer therefore; call it a feature!

I share this opinion but I also believe the 2010 models will also have this feature(!) and their statement underlies this. They are probably deep in production at this point therefore its probably too late to change the design. That is probably why we got that cover statement. Who cares if the black level increase is going to be gradual if we're ending up at the same location at the same point in time ? Its just a trick to make the increase less noticable.
post #3014 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by zuma15 View Post

well it happened to me today. I've been following this thread and dreading it.

I have a 54v10 which looked great in the showroom, and have loved for the few months I had it. I'm not by an means a videophile, or completely understand a lot of the technical terms thrown around here (although I think I'm doing a decent job at catching up).

But I will state that as others have said, it's quite noticable. My picture is nothing like the reviews I read, or the tv I saw in the showroom, or the tv I've owned for the past few months.

I'd like to report how many hours are on it, but I'm afraid to enter the service menu for fear of voiding the warrenty (is this a valid fear?). The thing is, I'm not sure I've made it to 1000 hours yet, although I guess it's possible after burn in and leaving it on all night once in a while.

In any event, I find the picture quality completely unacceptable at this point. This is NOT the tv i originally bought. I'm heartbroken after spending so much time reasearching and so much money just to end up with this

Thanks to everyone here who brought this issue up, and the cnet guy (god bless you). I hope to god Panasonic can fix this. If not I'm demanding a refund. If that doesn't work out, I guess it's an expensive lesson, and I'll just have to eat the cost of this tv and buy something else, because I am not about to put up with this for the next 6 or 7 years.


I have owned a 54V10 for a few months as well. My set has so far not been affected. However I am only around 200-300 hours. I think it would be VERY helpful if you could check the hours in the service menu - especially if you say the rise in black levels just happend. What we don't have in this thread are any concrete numbers on WHEN this happens.

Please check (and post) your hours - it will only take you a couple minutes to do so.
post #3015 of 10829
Like I said I'm afraid it would affect my warrenty. Is there a way for them to know if I accessed the service menu? And does that even affect the warrenty? My fear is that that's really the only recourse I'd have.
post #3016 of 10829
I started a thread on the Consumer Reports web site. One of the staff members picked it up and they are looking into it. I'm guessing that Consumer Reports has much larger and broader audience than either AVSForums or CNet, so they could bring some real pressure on Panasonic.
post #3017 of 10829
FWIW, I just checked the "black level rising" polls which cover the g10 and v10. Whether the problems are real or perceived the numbers are as follows:

99 members took poll
41 people reported rising black levels
40% problem rate
post #3018 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRTfrom1990 View Post

I started a thread on the Consumer Reports web site. One of the staff members picked it up and they are looking into it. I'm guessing that Consumer Reports has much larger and broader audience than either AVSForums or CNet, so they could bring some real pressure on Panasonic.

thank you sir. i and i think other panasonic plasma owners with this problem will agree is all we would like is a fix. not some statement stating that it is the design of the tv and it still has a great picture. yes it still does have a pretty good picture as long is there is no dark scenes in it specially night scenes or black bars at the top and bottom. they also left out that IR would get worse as well at least on mine has since the black level rise. i understand every tv's picture will degrade over time, but that time should not show up within the first year of use. come on panasonic do the right thing and correct the problem.
post #3019 of 10829
Any KRP-600M's left?
post #3020 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

FWIW, I just checked the "black level rising" polls which cover the g10 and v10. Whether the problems are real or perceived the numbers are as follows:

99 members took poll
41 people reported rising black levels
40% problem rate

Panasonic confirmed on cnet that 100% of TVs go through "black level risings"..
So the poll is moot ;-)
post #3021 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

Panasonic confirmed on cnet that 100% of TVs go through "black level risings"..
So the poll is moot ;-)

This is incorrect statement.
All TVs get the voltage adjusted, but not all of them experience black level risings. There are several people in the forum, who reported the same black level (measured) after 500-600, 1000 and even more hours.

Get your facts together instead of spreading rumors.
post #3022 of 10829
I think one thing that you have to take into account between people who have this problem in comparison to those who do not, is that viewing habits need to be taken into account. I've owned my set since November and have about 600 hours on mine. The only reason for this is because I doubled up on the break-in procedures.

Let's say the "set off" is 1,000 hours. This would take at least two years for me to achieve with my normal viewing habits, because all I ever do is watch movies or occasionally play a few rounds of Wii here or there. My V10 is on maybe three hours per day average.

On the other hand, there are people who run their sets for 10 hours per day.

Saying that you've only had your set for a month really means nothing - it's more about how aggressively you rack up hours.

I am tempted to start running mine more often now to surpass 1,000 hours. I'm very curious to see what, if anything, will happen. And if it does, you can bet I'll be giving Best Buy hell over it, too.

Anyone will tell you that plasma's picture quality will change over time. This is why people break-in their sets and why a lot of professional calibrators offer "touch ups," but this is a completely different issue we're dealing with here; especially considering the black-levels are, or at least were, considered one of the biggest selling points of the V10 and plasma technology in general.

Plasma is still trying to fend off the stereotypes about burn-in that I still hear rumblings about from the uninformed. Limited life-span is another topic which frequently comes up and a revelation such as this is only going to reinforce the fears that potential buyers already have.
post #3023 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by dead pixel View Post

Thank you for that nice explanation of the underlying tech however I remain with my belief that the problem is not that of "bogus numbers".

Just to clarify: by "bogus numbers" I mean that I don't personally know what the voltages are. They could be 1 volt, they could be 100 volts. I just made up numbers for illustration. That's what I meant by "bogus."

Now, to answer your other point: I agree to the possibility. It's possible that the variation from panel-to-panel causes this problem, and that to play it safe, Panasonic over-drove the initialization voltage to make sure that no panels had misfiring issues.

However, I've been lead to believe that the plasma manufacturing process is very stable, and that the variability between panels is minimal. We really need someone with more expertise to clarify if the variation between panels is significant enough to cause some to exhibit this issue while others don't.
post #3024 of 10829
I notice that there is a lot of freaking out going on. Panasonic really gave a standard marketing statement and I do not believe that the statement they made actually addresses the problem at all. The statement does not address sudden and early increase it simply states that the black levels will rise over time. There is clearly a problem that some sets are experiencing what is best described as a glitch in this process creating an overcompensation. It is not effecting all sets and it is not even doing it at the same time. That probably means that there is some unknown variable causing this to occur. The presence of an unknown variable means that Panasonic could be having a hard time finding the problem so that they could figure out how to fix it.

Considering if you talk to a Panasonic rep, they say that panasonic is looking into it. The response that want out to a media outlet though reads like a standard marketing statement to attempt to calm fears. Well, it didn't work, but that does not mean that Panasonic is saying you people who have the problem are screwed and enjoy your grey.

I am really close to buying a g10 and while this is bothering me, I do feel that they will be fixing the problem as soon as they identify it and figure a way to fix it. This is Panasonic, not some off brand spark-o-matic. They have a reputation and I am certain they want to keep it. I do believe that as soon as they determine the cause and figure a fix they will be fixing the affected sets.
post #3025 of 10829
Read this thread late last year. Kinda forgot about it. I have a Panasonic 50PZ800U. Set was made in January of 2009. Purchased in December of 08. My first one showed up scratched so Amazon setup a replacement but would not ship out until January of the next year because of them being out of stock.

Anyways, I just looked at my hours of usage. It stated 1338 and the number after it was 438. I assume the first one is hours? What is the second number?

I did notice a while back that I caught myself saying "I could have sworn my blacks were a little deeper". However, I don't know. Everything seems like it was when I received it. Only way to tell is to test it and honestly, I really don't see the need. When my screen is black, it doesn't light up the room, that's for sure.
post #3026 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

It's possible that the variation from panel-to-panel causes this problem, and that to play it safe, Panasonic over-drove the initialization voltage to make sure that no panels had misfiring issues.

This is most certainly the cause of this debacle. They wanted to keep their manufacuring reject rate low to maximize profits. Many companies do this and it always leads to a negative impact on their reputation. That's why its hard to believe that they can be this stupid in the way they've handled it. The story that engineers are now testing panels for this issue is childishly naive. During development extensive testing is done so they obviously detected this and decided to lower the quality threshhold in order to lower the manufacuring reject rate. And now their reputation for quality is forever tarnished, along with that of plasma sets in general.
post #3027 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

We need somebody, with deep pockets, to purchase one each of all the 2010 models, and run them 24/7, so that we can see what happens after 2,000 hours, so that we can find out what happens in time to determine if we should feel safe purchasing one, or not. and how I look with my HD shutter glasses on.

Perhaps people should contact Cnet, and urge them to run the tests, or we should push HDguru to run them, since he seems to get special access from Panasonic.

Ask and you shall receive. As soon as I get "pre-order" capabilities for the TC-P50S2, I will purchase the TC-P50S1 (need it for the S2 review anyway) and will thoroughly monitor the idle black rise from 0 hours to 2000 hours.

BTW, asking/expecting HD Guru to do anything that tarnishing Panasonic reputation is futile.
post #3028 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by zuma15 View Post

Like I said I'm afraid it would affect my warrenty. Is there a way for them to know if I accessed the service menu? And does that even affect the warrenty? My fear is that that's really the only recourse I'd have.

My understanding is that some firmware upgrades in the past REQUIRED access to the service menu. So no, I don't believe checking the hours will affect your warranty. I'm not even sure there is a way for Panasonic to know if you accessed the SM.

Again, if this just happened to your set - it would be VERY beneficial for everyone to see the hours so we know exactly when it happend.
post #3029 of 10829
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

BTW, asking/expecting HD Guru to do anything that tarnishing Panasonic reputation is futile.

between cnet, engadget, gizmodo, and consumer reports....i'd say it's a safe bet we no longer need him anymore as they are far more mainstream
post #3030 of 10829
One major question comes to my mind... and I haven't seen it asked:

Some things are hard-coded into the TV settings. Could a firmware fix even access or modify these programmed voltage manipulations?

If so, then the voltages could be lowered.

If not, then short of replacing component boards, there is no fix.

Or maybe just go ahead, quit complaining, mortgage the house, and buy a new TV...



- Dana Abboud
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