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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 119

post #3541 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by edeangel View Post

It migh be possible to patch by pixel address in a way that would work to fix the black bars on top and bottom of the screen only, but it would again be difficult to apply across the board because the person who has watched 100% letterbox films and the person who was only watching 50% letterbox films would need those values reduced by different amounts in order to stay within the pixel/plasma life paramaters that the voltage increase function is here to account for in the first place.

The screen is uniformly lighter when displayed full black image, not just top and bottom bars. The voltage is constant over the panel, not computed for each pixel. This voltage is applied to "reset" the cell not to actually lit it.
post #3542 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

just finished reading this incredibly long thread. I'd like to congratulate rpresner for posting the same thing exactly 98 times (so far) in the same thread. 2.75% of the entire thread devoted to telling people the issue is overblown.

+1
post #3543 of 11163
To be fair to Rpresner, he has consistently stated that he believes the problem is real. He is not a thread troll trying to deny the existence of the problem and antagonize those with issues (anyone who wants to see what a real thread troll is like should read the "purple snakes" thread!).

His only contention seems to be with (1) the out-of-control panic that surrounds the issue (and others like it on internet forums) as we really have no evidence that indicates it affects more than a small percentage of panels and (2) the people who are happy with their sets, then read this thread, and then induce a state of hysterical panic and decide (without any evidence) that they have a problem when in fact their set may be perfectly normal.

Both of those seem reasonable to me.

You can simultaneously agree that there is a real problem, and yet feel that the problem and its consequences are largely overblown, right? Or has anyone else not had to take their shoes off in an airport?
post #3544 of 11163
I just ordered a Panasonic TC-P50G15 two days ago and am just now seeing this thread. I have two questions

1) Does this black level issue definitely affect all G15 models?

2) Even with a black level quality reduction, are the black levels still better than a medium caliber LCD? Plasmas have a host of advantages over LCD's (viewing angle, no soap opera effect) etc, so I could probably live with this issue if it's not THAT bad. I mean it sucks, but the set still seems to be pretty strong in spite of this issue right?

Maybe I'm just being naive.
post #3545 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

To be fair to Rpresner, he has consistently stated that he believes the problem is real. He is not a thread troll trying to deny the existence of the problem and antagonize those with issues (anyone who wants to see what a real thread troll is like should read the "purple snakes" thread!).

His only contention seems to be with (1) the out-of-control panic that surrounds the issue (and others like it on internet forums) as we really have no evidence that indicates it affects more than a small percentage of panels and (2) the people who are happy with their sets, then read this thread, and then induce a state of hysterical panic and decide (without any evidence) that they have a problem when in fact their set may be perfectly normal.

Both of those seem reasonable to me.

You can simultaneously agree that there is a real problem, and yet feel that the problem and its consequences are largely overblown, right? Or has anyone else not had to take their shoes off in an airport?

thanks batpig, someone finally understands where I am coming from. also, the reason i post so much, is that certain people do not take the time to read the whole thread so when new people come on here and start questioning things, I like to put some comfort that its not all sets and some people still love panasonic and there TV's.. Ill take panasonic(even with this issue) over samsung anyday.. they represent what horror is to electronics and customer service.
post #3546 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

thanks batpig, someone finally understands where I am coming from. also, the reason i post so much, is that certain people do not take the time to read the whole thread so when new people come on here and start questioning things, I like to put some comfort that its not all sets and some people still love panasonic and there TV's.. Ill take panasonic(even with this issue) over samsung anyday.. they represent what horror is to electronics and customer service.

Yeah, initially you came off as a troll, but I realize you're a good guy and you know your stuff
post #3547 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Keren C: the issue is still under investigation at this time
Marc: Is that the latest update? How long will this investigation be ongoing?
Keren C: we should have a resolution in the end of this month
Marc: Is that definite?
Keren C: as far as I know
Marc: Has upper level tech told you this?
Marc: Or is this a guess? THats fine too
Keren C: no ihave been told by upper level management
Marc: Is firmware in the works?
Keren C: we have not been told about a firmware yet
Marc: So this issue will definitely 100% have a resolution by March 1?
Keren C: we have been advised the investigation will be completed by the end of the month

Keren C is clueless. Take her words with a grain of salt.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1211
post #3548 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed4252 View Post

Keren C is clueless. Take her words with a grain of salt.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1211

I think the part about a fix being worked on may be right, and hopefully the part where she talked to upper level management is correct too.
post #3549 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

I think the part about a fix being worked on may be right, and hopefully the part where she talked to upper level management is correct too.

Others have already contacted Panny and CS have told them the investigation has been completed. Nothing will be done about the situation except on future sets most likely.
post #3550 of 11163
1) No. It affects all G15 panels whose owners have the issue and post in this thread that they have the issue.

2) Depends on how bad it gets and whether you can live with it. Part of this is dependent on your lighting environment. If you watch with the lights on you probably won't even notice it. Lights out is where it'd be more noticable.

Like I've recommended before, I'd stress-test the unit for the first 50 days or so with content like planet earth or something else that's full 16:9 running whenever you aren't around so you can see within the first couple months (which should also be within your credit card chargeback territory) to see if your set is affected.

Panasonic is aware of the issue in some sets and there's indication from what they've told people that they may be working on a fix. You should be aware that while those with the issue are understandably the most vocal, their number vs. the amount of people who bought the sets overall are fairly small. It's still a very real issue, should you get it, but it's not omnipresent.

There's a tendency with consumer electronics for people to assume that any issue with a product is indicative of the entire product line instead of the individual copy they received. I believe there's a real issue here and I said that back when other people were trying to argue that it was just people's imaginations, but a real issue existing is no reason to run away into mass hysteria mode.

If I get a pack of pencils and one in twelve has no lead in it, then I'd probably just toss it away. If it was an expensive pencil, I'd contact the company and have them send a replacement (or if it was an electronically controlled pencil that was refusing to write, I'd have them make a fix for it). Now if you figure the same issue was present on x percentage of that product and those people all get together online to talk about it, then it comes off sounding like every one of the pencils have that problem. That's my impression here.

It's a real problem, one that Panasonic needs to address and fix, but from what I've seen it's isolated in scope.
post #3551 of 11163
Actually I think this is an issue that all owners should be up in arms about. I've had my set for six months and it doesn't have a problem yet. I actually dont watch a lot of tv so I don't have a lot hours on the set. Is this a problem that is going to come up after my one year warranty is up though? THAT is a serious problem. I think a lot of owners are worried about that too. At this point we really don't know how many sets are affected or if it can even be fixed. For all we know, all the sets are affected and one or two years into the set we will se the issue and be out of luck.

I watch my set in the dark but I know many don't. Those that don't may not be vocal because they can't tell in a lit room. That doesn't change the fact that those of us here are a picky bunch. We want things that to be perfect even when we can't tell and that's the reason so many picked these Panasonic sets.

Untill we get a better response from Panasonic and tests from reputable people come in we should all be worried. I think that if Panasonic says this happens at x hours and only a few sets are affected and then we can check our sets at hat x point and see if the black levels are acceptable then we can rest easy if tests from other sources affirm that.

These television sets represent years of investment for many of us. I keep my televsion sets for about a decade before I switch to a new one.
post #3552 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by prozak View Post

Actually I think this is an issue that all owners should be up in arms about. I've had my set for six months and it doesn't have a problem yet. I actually dont watch a lot of tv so I don't have a lot hours on the set. Is this a problem that is going to come up after my one year warranty is up though? THAT is a serious problem. I think a lot of owners are worried about that too. At this point we really don't know how many sets are affected or if it can even be fixed. For all we know, all the sets are affected and one or two years into the set we will se the issue and be out of luck.

I watch my set in the dark but I know many don't. Those that don't may not be vocal because they can't tell in a lit room. That doesn't change the fact that those of us here are a picky bunch. We want things that to be perfect even when we can't tell and that's the reason so many picked these Panasonic sets.

Untill we get a better response from Panasonic and tests from reputable people come in we should all be worried. I think that if Panasonic says this happens at x hours and only a few sets are affected and then we can check our sets at hat x point and see if the black levels are acceptable then we can rest easy if tests from other sources affirm that.

These television sets represent years of investment for many of us. I keep my televsion sets for about a decade before I switch to a new one.

I would say to measure you blacks now, and in the future if you think your set is lighter, try measuring them again.

What they said to CNET was something I already knew. The blacks may be lighter over time(years) but not doubling like some people have seen. When they say lighter they also say to keep outstanding picture quality for a life of the set. Isnt that what you want from what you stated before. If thats the case, what they wrote should be good for you.
post #3553 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Based on the new CSR responses, it is clear that Panasonic has decided that they can get away with claiming the TV is working the way it is supposed to, brush this under the rug, and assume all focus on the forums but in particular the review sites and news sites will be on the new 2010 sets. It appears they feel if they can show that they have "improved" the votage adjustment algorithm they can just say, "hey the previous generation sets work they way we designed them, no problem, and the 2010 sets are even better! So why are you guys talking about the 11G/12G sets, that's old news!"

Again, the only way we are going to get them to spend any time and effort on this is to somehow convince them it will hurt their sales of the 2010 generation of sets if they don't. That's the bottom line, and the only thing that will move them to action. Now the question is how to do that.

It is my intention to post reviews on sites like Amazon. And to be fair to Panasonic, inform customers that they need not write off buying a Panasonic unless Panasonic does not resolve the issue with our sets. So maybe the 2010 sets will drop not after 3 months but maybe after 6-7.

We should also inform HD Guru that his 5 hearts now have heart disease and he needs to update his review. AND all these new reviews of the VT25 should include a reference to the failures of the 2009 models and their current resolution as of their review.

I will post for the VT25 (pointing to the V10 review) even though I do not possess it. If I have to get flamed. so be it. At least, potential owners will be warned.
post #3554 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

The screen is uniformly lighter when displayed full black image, not just top and bottom bars. The voltage is constant over the panel, not computed for each pixel. This voltage is applied to "reset" the cell not to actually lit it.

I guess the reset voltage you are talking about is the voltage "precharge" applied to the off/black pixel. So if the reactivity of the gas in pixels which are in a constant precharge state theoretically declines faster than "active" pixels which are cycling based on the intensity of R/G/B, then you would build into your aging correction function a more rapid increase in voltage for a set which has seen more aggregate pixel activity over its lifespan in a "black bar" mode.

Now, if you are going to tell me that these sets, which are capable of varying the charge pulse rate on every subpixel discretely, are simply applying a single constant "precharge" voltage to every single sub-pixel when in the "off/black" state, then I am really surprised as this seems like a lazy solution when so much technology is being used to avoid image problems, and also if that were the case it would seem that there is really no reason why a simple fix like lowering the precharge voltage wouldn't solve the problem, assuming that the rate of deterioration in the gas responsiveness is the same between the "new" sets that will fix the problem, and the older sets that have the problem.

As I said in my first post, I don't know much about TV's, but it might be useful to know just what was observed in terns of voltage increases (I don't mean quantities, but a description of what voltage we are talking about that was tested...) Presumably it's impossible to measure real-time voltage to actual pixels, but what do I know..!

Cheers
post #3555 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

It is my intention to post reviews on sites like Amazon. And to be fair to Panasonic, inform customers that they need not write off buying a Panasonic unless Panasonic does not resolve the issue with our sets. So maybe the 2010 sets will drop not after 3 months but maybe after 6-7.

We should also inform HD Guru that his 5 hearts now have heart disease and he needs to update his review. AND all these new reviews of the VT25 should include a reference to the failures of the 2009 models and their current resolution as of their review.

I will post for the VT25 (pointing to the V10 review) even though I do not possess it. If I have to get flamed. so be it. At least, potential owners will be warned.

you need to chill..i would not call 2009 panasonics a failure. Show me one figure that would prove your statement. I could go on and on against it. Ask cleveland plasma if they were a failure. did they have issues, yea like every television. Did it affect everyone? Not even close... now your going to write reviews on a TV you dont have. This is why most people think people on here are crazy..
post #3556 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I cant wait to hear back on his readings. I still think this issue is extremely isolated to only a small percentage of buyers that deserve a remedy, but I do not think there will be any fixes. Just replacements. There are just to many variables in this problem to pinpoint any fix by firmware. Every sets pixels are aged differently. My biggest gripe is when people state that every 11-12g TV has this issue. I believe this case is isolated to panasonics avg defective panels rate, which is about 3% maybe(just a guess on my part) To date, I believe there were 6 people on this forum with black level proof. I hope they find a solution in the future to there defective sets. Its funny how not one professional site has seen this issue on these sets. I will bet none of those reviewers has a v10-g10 with this issue or it probably would have came up like the THX issue. Still I will stand by all the reviews in saying this is the best TV(my v10) other than the Kuro.. but given its pricepoint before Pio went out of business, was one of the best buys you could have made. Still is.

Well, we do not have enough empirical data to draw any conclusions on how widespread the problem may be. Your believing something does not make it so. We shall have to wait and see.

However: If Panasonic has knowledge that the excessive voltage adjustments to the pixels was limited to a certain batch, and not to all panels, then why would they not get that information out at once. Why let the fear factor grow amongst their entire consumer base.

I think you need to stop trying to persuade people to not be concerned about the issue, because you have absolutely nothing concrete to base your assertions on either.

Time for Panasonic to put all their cards on the table. The truth shall set them free.
post #3557 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Well, we do not have enough empirical data to draw any conclusions on how widespread the problem may be. Your believing something does not make it so. We shall have to wait and see.

However: If Panasonic has knowledge that the excessive voltage adjustments to the pixels was limited to a certain batch, and not to all panels, then why would they not get that information out at once. Why let the fear factor grow amongst their entire consumer base.

I think you need to stop trying to persuade people to not be concerned about the issue, because you have absolutely nothing concrete to base your assertions on either.

Time for Panasonic to put all their cards on the table. The truth shall set them free.

you will not change my opinion or persuade me otherwise. i will continue to treat this as a very isolated issue until I am proven wrong. Everything I have seen leads me to believe its isolated(hope there is a fix for those). out of millions of 11-12g sets i have seen 6 reports of an issue with actual data. This forum is the only thing to report it in the last 2 years(since this affects 11gs as well). I have several friends with the TV and none have this issue(some plus 2000 hours). Blacks rising and blacks doubling are too different things.
post #3558 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

you need to chill..i would not call 2009 panasonics a failure. Show me one figure that would prove your statement. I could go on and on against it. Ask cleveland plasma if they were a failure. did they have issues, yea like every television. Did it affect everyone? Not even close... now your going to write reviews on a TV you dont have. This is why most people think people on here are crazy..

I have NEVER written a review of a product I don't own. I believe that is unmerited and foolish. However, in the event that our TV's do get worse over time (at an unacceptable rate) wrt the black levels, I would like to warn other users. Both Donnymac and I have poor gamma in THX. Now the black level issue and my contrast has dropped after the SD update (I will recheck this for the 3rd time to be certain).

While its easy to say a few sets have an issue, how do we know how many people are measuring the drop in black level. Even C-NET has said they cannot continue to recommend this TV. My comments related to the review embody EXACTLY that sentiment. I will be fair to Panasonic if I were to do so. Saying it still is a good TV. But these were the issues and these were the resolutions. HD Guru still has his 5 heart review. C-NET & Engadget have both put out this issue as well as other professional sites. Surely there must be some merit to the topic ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

...
...
I think you need to stop trying to persuade people to not be concerned about the issue, because you have absolutely nothing concrete to base your assertions on either.

Time for Panasonic to put all their cards on the table. The truth shall set them free.

+1
post #3559 of 11163
guys , its either A. some 09 panny plasmas are affected by prematurely rising black levels , the rest perform perfectly well , but pana dont seem to want to help those whos sets have issues , describing this as normal.....

or

B.all 09 panny plasmas are going to end up with rising black levels , some sooner than others , but pana say , er , thats normal....

if you were about to part with your dough , for a panny plasma , and were told that either A or B were true , would you still buy it ????
post #3560 of 11163
Had the TV a month and a half - black levels doubled. I probably wouldn't have noticed if not for this thread.
post #3561 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

you will not change my opinion or persuade me otherwise. i will continue to treat this as a very isolated issue until I am proven wrong. Everything I have seen leads me to believe its isolated(hope there is a fix for those). out of millions of 11-12g sets i have seen 6 reports of an issue with actual data. This forum is the only thing to report it in the last 2 years(since this affects 11gs as well). I have several friends with the TV and none have this issue(some plus 2000 hours). Blacks rising and blacks doubling are too different things.

And did you measure their black level at 0 IRE. Mine is at 0.028ftl right now in THX. People with much cheaper sets incld. Panasonic's are measuring half that level and even less than half. Like 008ftl. If you are going to challenge it, challenge it with measurements.
post #3562 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I believe that I read comments from a number of people who said that they had gone through the accelerated break-in procedures, and had still ended up with the rapid loss of black level.

Which is something that was pointed out that it could be possible due to the accelerated break-in, the aging process may have been premature thus leading to a black level issue. It is only a theory...one among the many in this thread.
post #3563 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

I have NEVER written a review of a product I don't own. I believe that is unmerited and foolish. However, in the event that our TV's do get worse over time (at an unacceptable rate) wrt the black levels, I would like to warn other users. Both Donnymac and I have poor gamma in THX. Now the black level issue and my contrast has dropped after the SD update (I will recheck this for the 3rd time to be certain).

While its easy to say a few sets have an issue, how do we know how many people are measuring the drop in black level. Even C-NET has said they cannot continue to recommend this TV. My comments related to the review embody EXACTLY that sentiment. I will be fair to Panasonic if I were to do so. Saying it still is a good TV. But these were the issues and these were the resolutions. HD Guru still has his 5 heart review. C-NET & Engadget have both put out this issue as well as other professional sites. Surely there must be some merit to the topic ?




+1


everyone needs to realize that the AVS forum is not the world. I think it sucks if you have this issue and I do hope it gets resolved. I have said this from the beginning. What if I think this TV deserves a 5 star rating as do others I know with the TV> Am i wrong???? this site is for complaining and getting questions answered. If your easily stirred then this might be the worst site to ever come on.
post #3564 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

However: If Panasonic has knowledge that the excessive voltage adjustments to the pixels was limited to a certain batch, and not to all panels, then why would they not get that information out at once. Why let the fear factor grow amongst their entire consumer base.

Because it can't be associated with a "certain batch?" Because their manufacturing tolerance is unpredictable across all batches?

I think if they could isolate it to a specific "batch" of panels they would be proactive (if its not to big of a batch).
post #3565 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillspace View Post

Which is something that was pointed out that it could be possible due to the accelerated break-in, the aging process may have been premature thus leading to a black level issue. It is only a theory...one among the many in this thread.

If Panny were to implement amping of the voltage based on some weightage - like Vivid and contrast at 100 should have a diff weightage than using Studio ref and Contrast at 50 for an x # of hrs, then it should not matter so much. However, if they are blindly amping it based on hrs and it could matter, then some of us might have gotten screwed. Again, not proven and just a theory.
post #3566 of 11163
In case I missed anything, any guys out there with their fancy light meters seeing zero change from new that now have over 2000 hours? I think the people that say there isn't a serious issue here are simply those who have lower hours on their sets or watch the thing with lots of ambient light.

My 42G10 now probably has over 2800 hours. It was almost 2700 last week when I first posted. Probably around 2500 hours around the time I noticed how much "blacker" my new 50S1 is. Does anyone have similar hours (2000+) who can confirm no elevated black levels?
post #3567 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

And did you measure their black level at 0 IRE. Mine is at 0.028ftl right now in THX. People with much cheaper sets incld. Panasonic's are measuring half that level and even less than half. Like 008ftl. If you are going to challenge it, challenge it with measurements.

do you really think everyone is affected by this or maybe its just like 2-3% of all 12g plasmas... just a simple question.. and by the way I am no professional with tv tech or calibrations, but I did have a buddy of mine measure .007 on my v10 with 1000 hours on it...i did no break in procedure and have only watched in THX mode. I cant tell you if my THX is accurate but it has no green tinge or anything like that. It def beasts my LED in the living room at everything. EVEN BLACKS>
post #3568 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillspace View Post

Which is something that was pointed out that it could be possible due to the accelerated break-in, the aging process may have been premature thus leading to a black level issue. It is only a theory...one among the many in this thread.

I thought about it too but that theory didn't make sense to me.

If the break-in procedure caused faster aging than what had been expected by the firmware which uses the "on-hours of normal viewing" as the age metric, then it would mean the FW would be a step behind in its voltage rise schedule and should have caused cell misfirings, not MLL rise.

I also note that the patent chart suggests that that MLL rise is tied to the amount of *access* voltage relative to the minimum initializing voltage required at a given age of the cells. The absolute voltage level doesn't seem to be a big factor.

EDIT: Actually the absolute voltage does seem to be a significant factor as well as the access voltage.
post #3569 of 11163
I personally am glad that I had my V10 professionally calibrated only <50 hours out the box:

Before calibration: 0.0090 fL
After calibration: 0.007 fL

Now that I have some recorded values, hopefully, this will arm me with actual proof down the road if ever I run into this issue.

In the meantime, I have to agree with Rpresner, this may very well be isolated affecting a small percentage of sets and I truly hope those afflicted will get a fix for it soon. For me, I hope it doesn't happen. I for one am not using break-in slides, just using the TV with my normal viewing habits. I'll keep my fingers crossed for the next 500 hours, 1000 hours and 2000 hours
post #3570 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

do you really think everyone is affected by this or maybe its just like 2-3% of all 12g plasmas... just a simple question.. and by the way I am no professional with tv tech or calibrations, but I did have a buddy of mine measure .007 on my v10 with 1000 hours on it...i did no break in procedure and have only watched in THX mode. I cant tell you if my THX is accurate but it has no green tinge or anything like that. It def beasts my LED in the living room at everything. EVEN BLACKS>

I don't know how many are. I will re-measure and try to get the lowest value for 0IRE. If doing so compromises other aspects and I have to make a trade-off, then I hope it will be at a decent level.

My 50V10 (June 09 FW SD update 1.28) has 1195 hrs. If that same friend were to come over to your place when you reached say 1500 hrs, or did the SD/future Viera update and your black level doubled, you would then be just as upset. Especially when we do not know what the stabilization point is and what is going to be the black level at that point.

Just as a side thought, I would guess that since the voltage is being amped, the power consumption might go up and the black level up as well. I would have preferred if the inverse happened. However, if neither are to a major degree, I think most of us, myself incld. will be content. That said, it is embarassing to have cheaper LCD's showing comparable/better blacks.
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