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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 120

post #3571 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I cant wait to hear back on his readings. I still think this issue is extremely isolated to only a small percentage of buyers that deserve a remedy, but I do not think there will be any fixes. Just replacements. There are just to many variables in this problem to pinpoint any fix by firmware. Every sets pixels are aged differently. My biggest gripe is when people state that every 11-12g TV has this issue. I believe this case is isolated to panasonics avg defective panels rate, which is about 3% maybe(just a guess on my part) To date, I believe there were 6 people on this forum with black level proof. I hope they find a solution in the future to there defective sets. Its funny how not one professional site has seen this issue on these sets. I will bet none of those reviewers has a v10-g10 with this issue or it probably would have came up like the THX issue. Still I will stand by all the reviews in saying this is the best TV(my v10) other than the Kuro.. but given its pricepoint before Pio went out of business, was one of the best buys you could have made. Still is.

Well, we do not have enough empirical data to draw any conclusions on how widespread the problem may be. Your believing something does not make it so. We shall have to wait and see.

However: If Panasonic has knowledge that the excessive voltage adjustments to the pixels was limited to a certain batch, and not to all panels, then why would they not get that information out at once. Why let the fear factor grow amongst their entire consumer base.

I think you need to stop trying to persuade people to not be concerned about the issue, because you have absolutely nothing concrete to base your assertions on either.

Time for Panasonic to put all their cards on the table. The truth shall set them free.
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post #3572 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Well, we do not have enough empirical data to draw any conclusions on how widespread the problem may be. Your believing something does not make it so. We shall have to wait and see.

However: If Panasonic has knowledge that the excessive voltage adjustments to the pixels was limited to a certain batch, and not to all panels, then why would they not get that information out at once. Why let the fear factor grow amongst their entire consumer base.

I think you need to stop trying to persuade people to not be concerned about the issue, because you have absolutely nothing concrete to base your assertions on either.

Time for Panasonic to put all their cards on the table. The truth shall set them free.

you will not change my opinion or persuade me otherwise. i will continue to treat this as a very isolated issue until I am proven wrong. Everything I have seen leads me to believe its isolated(hope there is a fix for those). out of millions of 11-12g sets i have seen 6 reports of an issue with actual data. This forum is the only thing to report it in the last 2 years(since this affects 11gs as well). I have several friends with the TV and none have this issue(some plus 2000 hours). Blacks rising and blacks doubling are too different things.
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post #3573 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

you need to chill..i would not call 2009 panasonics a failure. Show me one figure that would prove your statement. I could go on and on against it. Ask cleveland plasma if they were a failure. did they have issues, yea like every television. Did it affect everyone? Not even close... now your going to write reviews on a TV you dont have. This is why most people think people on here are crazy..

I have NEVER written a review of a product I don't own. I believe that is unmerited and foolish. However, in the event that our TV's do get worse over time (at an unacceptable rate) wrt the black levels, I would like to warn other users. Both Donnymac and I have poor gamma in THX. Now the black level issue and my contrast has dropped after the SD update (I will recheck this for the 3rd time to be certain).

While its easy to say a few sets have an issue, how do we know how many people are measuring the drop in black level. Even C-NET has said they cannot continue to recommend this TV. My comments related to the review embody EXACTLY that sentiment. I will be fair to Panasonic if I were to do so. Saying it still is a good TV. But these were the issues and these were the resolutions. HD Guru still has his 5 heart review. C-NET & Engadget have both put out this issue as well as other professional sites. Surely there must be some merit to the topic ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

...
...
I think you need to stop trying to persuade people to not be concerned about the issue, because you have absolutely nothing concrete to base your assertions on either.

Time for Panasonic to put all their cards on the table. The truth shall set them free.

+1
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post #3574 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:21pm
guys , its either A. some 09 panny plasmas are affected by prematurely rising black levels , the rest perform perfectly well , but pana dont seem to want to help those whos sets have issues , describing this as normal.....

or

B.all 09 panny plasmas are going to end up with rising black levels , some sooner than others , but pana say , er , thats normal....

if you were about to part with your dough , for a panny plasma , and were told that either A or B were true , would you still buy it ????
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post #3575 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:22pm
Had the TV a month and a half - black levels doubled. I probably wouldn't have noticed if not for this thread.
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post #3576 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

you will not change my opinion or persuade me otherwise. i will continue to treat this as a very isolated issue until I am proven wrong. Everything I have seen leads me to believe its isolated(hope there is a fix for those). out of millions of 11-12g sets i have seen 6 reports of an issue with actual data. This forum is the only thing to report it in the last 2 years(since this affects 11gs as well). I have several friends with the TV and none have this issue(some plus 2000 hours). Blacks rising and blacks doubling are too different things.

And did you measure their black level at 0 IRE. Mine is at 0.028ftl right now in THX. People with much cheaper sets incld. Panasonic's are measuring half that level and even less than half. Like 008ftl. If you are going to challenge it, challenge it with measurements.
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post #3577 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I believe that I read comments from a number of people who said that they had gone through the accelerated break-in procedures, and had still ended up with the rapid loss of black level.

Which is something that was pointed out that it could be possible due to the accelerated break-in, the aging process may have been premature thus leading to a black level issue. It is only a theory...one among the many in this thread.
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post #3578 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

I have NEVER written a review of a product I don't own. I believe that is unmerited and foolish. However, in the event that our TV's do get worse over time (at an unacceptable rate) wrt the black levels, I would like to warn other users. Both Donnymac and I have poor gamma in THX. Now the black level issue and my contrast has dropped after the SD update (I will recheck this for the 3rd time to be certain).

While its easy to say a few sets have an issue, how do we know how many people are measuring the drop in black level. Even C-NET has said they cannot continue to recommend this TV. My comments related to the review embody EXACTLY that sentiment. I will be fair to Panasonic if I were to do so. Saying it still is a good TV. But these were the issues and these were the resolutions. HD Guru still has his 5 heart review. C-NET & Engadget have both put out this issue as well as other professional sites. Surely there must be some merit to the topic ?




+1


everyone needs to realize that the AVS forum is not the world. I think it sucks if you have this issue and I do hope it gets resolved. I have said this from the beginning. What if I think this TV deserves a 5 star rating as do others I know with the TV> Am i wrong???? this site is for complaining and getting questions answered. If your easily stirred then this might be the worst site to ever come on.
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post #3579 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

However: If Panasonic has knowledge that the excessive voltage adjustments to the pixels was limited to a certain batch, and not to all panels, then why would they not get that information out at once. Why let the fear factor grow amongst their entire consumer base.

Because it can't be associated with a "certain batch?" Because their manufacturing tolerance is unpredictable across all batches?

I think if they could isolate it to a specific "batch" of panels they would be proactive (if its not to big of a batch).
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post #3580 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillspace View Post

Which is something that was pointed out that it could be possible due to the accelerated break-in, the aging process may have been premature thus leading to a black level issue. It is only a theory...one among the many in this thread.

If Panny were to implement amping of the voltage based on some weightage - like Vivid and contrast at 100 should have a diff weightage than using Studio ref and Contrast at 50 for an x # of hrs, then it should not matter so much. However, if they are blindly amping it based on hrs and it could matter, then some of us might have gotten screwed. Again, not proven and just a theory.
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post #3581 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:35pm
In case I missed anything, any guys out there with their fancy light meters seeing zero change from new that now have over 2000 hours? I think the people that say there isn't a serious issue here are simply those who have lower hours on their sets or watch the thing with lots of ambient light.

My 42G10 now probably has over 2800 hours. It was almost 2700 last week when I first posted. Probably around 2500 hours around the time I noticed how much "blacker" my new 50S1 is. Does anyone have similar hours (2000+) who can confirm no elevated black levels?
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post #3582 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

And did you measure their black level at 0 IRE. Mine is at 0.028ftl right now in THX. People with much cheaper sets incld. Panasonic's are measuring half that level and even less than half. Like 008ftl. If you are going to challenge it, challenge it with measurements.

do you really think everyone is affected by this or maybe its just like 2-3% of all 12g plasmas... just a simple question.. and by the way I am no professional with tv tech or calibrations, but I did have a buddy of mine measure .007 on my v10 with 1000 hours on it...i did no break in procedure and have only watched in THX mode. I cant tell you if my THX is accurate but it has no green tinge or anything like that. It def beasts my LED in the living room at everything. EVEN BLACKS>
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post #3583 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillspace View Post

Which is something that was pointed out that it could be possible due to the accelerated break-in, the aging process may have been premature thus leading to a black level issue. It is only a theory...one among the many in this thread.

I thought about it too but that theory didn't make sense to me.

If the break-in procedure caused faster aging than what had been expected by the firmware which uses the "on-hours of normal viewing" as the age metric, then it would mean the FW would be a step behind in its voltage rise schedule and should have caused cell misfirings, not MLL rise.

I also note that the patent chart suggests that that MLL rise is tied to the amount of *access* voltage relative to the minimum initializing voltage required at a given age of the cells. The absolute voltage level doesn't seem to be a big factor.

EDIT: Actually the absolute voltage does seem to be a significant factor as well as the access voltage.
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post #3584 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:45pm
I personally am glad that I had my V10 professionally calibrated only <50 hours out the box:

Before calibration: 0.0090 fL
After calibration: 0.007 fL

Now that I have some recorded values, hopefully, this will arm me with actual proof down the road if ever I run into this issue.

In the meantime, I have to agree with Rpresner, this may very well be isolated affecting a small percentage of sets and I truly hope those afflicted will get a fix for it soon. For me, I hope it doesn't happen. I for one am not using break-in slides, just using the TV with my normal viewing habits. I'll keep my fingers crossed for the next 500 hours, 1000 hours and 2000 hours
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post #3585 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

do you really think everyone is affected by this or maybe its just like 2-3% of all 12g plasmas... just a simple question.. and by the way I am no professional with tv tech or calibrations, but I did have a buddy of mine measure .007 on my v10 with 1000 hours on it...i did no break in procedure and have only watched in THX mode. I cant tell you if my THX is accurate but it has no green tinge or anything like that. It def beasts my LED in the living room at everything. EVEN BLACKS>

I don't know how many are. I will re-measure and try to get the lowest value for 0IRE. If doing so compromises other aspects and I have to make a trade-off, then I hope it will be at a decent level.

My 50V10 (June 09 FW SD update 1.28) has 1195 hrs. If that same friend were to come over to your place when you reached say 1500 hrs, or did the SD/future Viera update and your black level doubled, you would then be just as upset. Especially when we do not know what the stabilization point is and what is going to be the black level at that point.

Just as a side thought, I would guess that since the voltage is being amped, the power consumption might go up and the black level up as well. I would have preferred if the inverse happened. However, if neither are to a major degree, I think most of us, myself incld. will be content. That said, it is embarassing to have cheaper LCD's showing comparable/better blacks.
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post #3586 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed4252 View Post

Keren C is clueless. Take her words with a grain of salt.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1211


Keren C and all other CSRs are not clueless. They are paid to punch in key words and read the company's official position.

It you were the head of a $75,000,000,000 per year company, you would expect your CSRs to do the same. You are wasting your time if you think that you will get company confidential information from a CSR.

Larry
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post #3587 of 10829
2/8/10 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Keren C and all other CSRs are not clueless. They are paid to punch in key words and read the company's official position.

It you were the head of a $75,000,000,000 per year company, you would expect your CSRs to do the same. You are wasting your time if you think that you will get company confidential information from a CSR.

Larry

You should post that in your signature
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post #3588 of 10829
2/8/10 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

I thought about it too but that theory didn't make sense to me.

If the break-in procedure caused faster aging than what had been expected by the firmware which uses the "on-hours of normal viewing" as the age metric, then it would mean the FW would be a step behind in its voltage rise schedule and should have caused cell misfirings, not MLL rise.

I also note that the patent chart suggests that that MLL rise is tied to the amount of *access* voltage relative to the minimum initializing voltage required at a given age of the cells. The absolute voltage level doesn't seem to be a big factor.


I agree, mmoh00. My educated guess is that the algorithm that controls the timing of the voltage change (whatever it may be) is a simple one and based only on 'On Time.'

Larry
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post #3589 of 10829
2/8/10 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

I don't know how many are. I will re-measure and try to get the lowest value for 0IRE. If doing so compromises other aspects and I have to make a trade-off, then I hope it will be at a decent level.

My set has 1195 hrs. If that same friend were to come over to your place when you reached say 1500 hrs, or did the SD/future Viera update and your black level doubled, you would then be just as upset. Especially when we do not know what the stabilization point is and what is going to be the black level at that point.

Just as a side thought, I would guess that since the voltage is being amped, the power consumption might go up and the black level up as well. I would have preferred if the inverse happened. However, if neither are to a major degree, I think most of us, myself incld. will be content. That said, it is embarassing to have cheaper LCD's showing comparable/better blacks.

i will surely have him revist to measure at 1500 hours. Should not be that long as I watch and play VG on this tv alot... did you measure the levels on certain modes like THX with BD content present...

also if you updated via SD and the levels increased that much, will they not send you a new unit? Because it would be awesome first and foremost for you to have this issue done with, but also to see if the new set still had those issues..
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post #3590 of 10829
2/8/10 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

I agree, mmoh00. My educated guess is that the algorithm that controls the timing of the voltage change (whatever it may be) is a simple one and based only on 'On Time.'

Larry

And the voltage wouldn't reset if the clock reset?
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post #3591 of 10829
2/8/10 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

i will surely have him revist to measure at 1500 hours. Should not be that long as I watch and play VG on this tv alot... did you measure the levels on certain modes like THX with BD content present...

also if you updated via SD and the levels increased that much, will they not send you a new unit? Because it would be awesome first and foremost for you to have this issue done with, but also to see if the new set still had those issues..

I will try to post my re-measured THX 0IRE level tonight. I measured using the THX mode outside of the SM and using a small window pattern as stimulus. They were from the AV HD 709. There was no menu on the screen and the ambient light in the room was very low. Not pitch black but very dark.

I would rather be wrong with my black level and this could quite be possible. I just never focused on that aspect till I got a little more AVS education on calibration too
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post #3592 of 10829
2/8/10 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

And the voltage wouldn't reset if the clock reset?


Not if the algorithm is based on delta time -- that is, based on time intervals not absolute time.

Or if the algorithm only permits voltage changes in one direction.

Larry
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post #3593 of 10829
2/8/10 at 6:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed4252 View Post

Keren C is clueless. Take her words with a grain of salt.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1211

+100, Karen C is a clueless IDIOT!!! I got trounced on this thread for giving her a hard time about not knowing what she is talking about so be careful what you say about her man. She is apparently widely adored across this thread. You guys can flog me all you want. This company is headed by brainless idiots and the people that they employ are no different!!! If I worked for this company, I would NEVER say that I was sure about anything I was not with the things this company is doing to people!!! LUCKILY, I was able to get my hands on a far superior display and I can take this 65" piece of s--t back where it came from. I will never buy or even USE so much as a battery from panasonic!!! If I buy something that comes with a remote, and it includes batteries, I will ship the batteries to panasonic with a drawing of a middle finger and tell them where to install them!!!
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post #3594 of 10829
2/8/10 at 6:16pm
I would never say anything about her man......
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post #3595 of 10829
2/8/10 at 6:21pm
Class action time?

These sets are advertised with a contrast ratio, and if it changes really soon I see a problem.
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post #3596 of 10829
2/8/10 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

you will not change my opinion or persuade me otherwise. i will continue to treat this as a very isolated issue until I am proven wrong. Everything I have seen leads me to believe its isolated(hope there is a fix for those). out of millions of 11-12g sets i have seen 6 reports of an issue with actual data. This forum is the only thing to report it in the last 2 years(since this affects 11gs as well). I have several friends with the TV and none have this issue(some plus 2000 hours). Blacks rising and blacks doubling are too different things.

And I am going to continue to view it as an issue that the extent of has not yet been determined. It might be just a small percentage, and it might be most or all of the panels. Only time and further research will reveal the full extent of the problem. Faith makes a fine breakfast, but a terrible supper. Or as they say in Russia: Trust but Verify.
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post #3597 of 10829
2/8/10 at 6:25pm
Wow.

This thread really needs to chill out.

1) Panasonic admitted the MLL will rise which is good.
2) Large organizations move slowly. Don't expect a response quickly.
3) If they can find a workable fix, they'll release a firmware.
4) This problem will have negligible effect on the average consumer which has always been Panasonic's target audience. They will do what is in their best interest to stay profitable.
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post #3598 of 10829
2/8/10 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

[b]It you were the head of a $75,000,000,000 per year company ...

Sorry, but I just can't help but wonder what TV brand/model this guy watches at home.
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post #3599 of 10829
2/8/10 at 6:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by afxtwn View Post

+100, Karen C is a clueless IDIOT!!! I got trounced on this thread for giving her a hard time about not knowing what she is talking about so be careful what you say about her man. She is apparently widely adored across this thread. You guys can flog me all you want. This company is headed by brainless idiots and the people that they employ are no different!!! If I worked for this company, I would NEVER say that I was sure about anything I was not with the things this company is doing to people!!! LUCKILY, I was able to get my hands on a far superior display and I can take this 65" piece of s--t back where it came from. I will never buy or even USE so much as a battery from panasonic!!! If I buy something that comes with a remote, and it includes batteries, I will ship the batteries to panasonic with a drawing of a middle finger and tell them where to install them!!!

You were given a hard time because you acted like a pompous A$$ in a conversation with a customer service rep and then came here to post the transcript as if you should somehow get respect or laughs for it.

Your money spent should entitle you to an eventual answer, it doesn't give license to being a jerk. Of course no one can stop you from that, but don't be surprised when you're called out for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunaticpuma View Post

Wow.

This thread really needs to chill out.

1) Panasonic admitted the MLL will rise which is good.
2) Large organizations move slowly. Don't expect a response quickly.
3) If they can find a workable fix, they'll release a firmware.
4) This problem will have negligible effect on the average consumer which has always been Panasonic's target audience. They will do what is in their best interest to stay profitable.

+1
Hopefully at least afxtwn won't be around the thread anymore since he bought a "far superior display" and is returning his Panasonic.
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post #3600 of 10829
2/8/10 at 6:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by suprememilo View Post

Class action time?

These sets are advertised with a contrast ratio, and if it changes really soon I see a problem.


I'll say it again:

Panasonic advertises a CR of something like 2,000,000:1.

Assuming that your TV can produce 100 ftL which is very unlikely, that means the corresponding black level is 100/2000000 or 0.00005 ftL.

And you want to sue a very large company over marketing numbers?

Larry
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