Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 121

Originally Posted by larryinri

i'll say it again:

Panasonic advertises a cr of something like 2,000,000:1.

Assuming that your tv can produce 100 ftl which is very unlikely, that means the corresponding black level is 100/2000000 or 0.00005 ftl.

And you want to sue a very large company over marketing numbers? :d

larry

Originally Posted by mustangs1

40,000:1

Originally Posted by LarryInRI

I'll say it again:

Panasonic advertises a CR of something like 2,000,000:1.

Assuming that your TV can produce 100 ftL which is very unlikely, that means the corresponding black level is 100/2000000 or 0.00005 ftL.

And you want to sue a very large company over marketing numbers?

Larry

Originally Posted by greenland

HDguru just posted (and he has an in with the Panasonic people) that the S1 model and the new S2 model, have the same contrast ratios.

According to the Panasonic site; they claim that the S1 is 40,000 to 1 native, and the S2 has 2,000,000 to 1 native.

It gets kind hard, when one of their own media shills can not keep track of all the BS that the manufacturer keeps throwing around.

Originally Posted by chillspace

I personally am glad that I had my V10 professionally calibrated only <50 hours out the box:

Before calibration: 0.0090 fL
After calibration: 0.007 fL

Now that I have some recorded values, hopefully, this will arm me with actual proof down the road if ever I run into this issue.

Originally Posted by chillspace

In the meantime, I have to agree with Rpresner, this may very well be isolated affecting a small percentage of sets and I truly hope those afflicted will get a fix for it soon. For me, I hope it doesn't happen. I for one am not using break-in slides, just using the TV with my normal viewing habits. I'll keep my fingers crossed for the next 500 hours, 1000 hours and 2000 hours

Originally Posted by LarryInRI

Did you call me a shill for Panasonic?

Larry

Originally Posted by greenland

No; HDguru. He really pushes the Panasonic line. Late last year; Panasonic was using his rave reviews on their own web site. He brags about his special access to them.

Originally Posted by afxtwn

While this thread is 100% necessary and should continue, I think we all need to band together and spend our time elsewhere to fight this now!!! I have a proposal. I just wrote a review on Amazon.com as I am now the owner of a 65V10 that transformed into a 65" Vizio LCD with severe IR!!! It only took a Jan 2010 build 135 to 150 hours to develop it's "Panel Cancer". Yes we now need to dub it this as that is exactly what it is!!! Every owner of one of these infected panels needs to go online and write their own variation of this:

This is how your review will appear:


1.0 out of 5 stars BUYER BEWARE!!! DO NOT BUY PANASONIC PLASMAS!!!, February 8, 2010
By YarnSOupOFTHEDAY "SOups" (INDIANA) - See all my reviews
Panasonic is widely known as a major manufacturer of some of the most popular plasma displays available. What is not known however is that this company is EXTREMELY cruel and has no regard for the customers that pump out thousands of dollars for their sets. It is becoming more and more public as each day passes that one of the MAJOR features of this set (the only one in my opinion that would set it apart from the remaining plasma competition) it's black levels, are stripped away in an unacceptably short amount of time. Numerous long time members of enthusiasts website "AVS Forum" have posted results taken by actual light meters that their black levels had DOUBLED in as little as 200 to 300 hours of use. In addition, a feature that is a marketing gimmick to begin with also becomes even more of a non-feature when this bug in their software begins it's reign of terror on the panel. I am referring to none other that the "infinite black feature". Now you would think that this feature enables the T.V to display an infinite level of black in content viewed on the panel lending an unparalleled amount of depth, richness, and realism to the images. Um...no. All it does is drops an input with either no signal, or an image that does not require one pixel to be lit up to 0.00FTL. Which is essentially absolute black. Rest assured that if one lowly little pixel lights up, your infinite black 0.00FTL turns into 0.08FTL, which is not bad at all, but by no means infinite black. Hold on it gets better. This feature as useless as it is, is only available in the most useless of all AV selections, that's right folks, Vivid. Try this on Custom, Game, Standard, or even the mighty (sorry I just threw up a little in my mouth) THX mode, and it's a no go. Well, when the panel "Cancer" begins, one of the symptoms is that you may loose this wonderful feature. Essentially you will have an LCD with none of the perks of an LCD. The once rich deep picture becomes a washed out, uninspiring mess to look at. I hoped that I might be spared of this disease but as soon as I hit around 130 hours, my lush beautiful Panasonic plasma transformed into a 65" LCD that only gets half as bright as an LCD and none of the pop either. Not to mention I get a free side order of severe image retention to go along with it. There is no way Panasonic does not know exactly what is causing this. The "leaders" of this company could have all of the people that know every inner working of this T.V assembled in a room within a day if they wanted (which no doubt they did) and have the issue explained to them as this is a necessary "job" for every display to do. However, Panasonic is the only plasma that compromises it's black levels to do so. Voltages that charge the display's pixels need to be adjusted to compensate for wear on the materials in the panel. Panasonic basically bought themselves a stretch Hummer made of platinum to compensate for the little winky in it's pants. Basically I am saying that the voltage increases are way overcompensated. Sorry, I can be a little evil when I am angry. Anyway, this is the statement that Panasonic has released to C-Net.
"Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs deliver exceptional picture performance throughout the lifetime of these products. Various elements and material characteristics of all electronic displays change with use over time. In order to achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set, Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an automatic control which adjusts an internal driving voltage at predetermined intervals of operational hours.

As a result of this automatic voltage adjustment, background brightness will increase from its initial value. After several years of typical use, the internal material characteristics will stabilize and no additional automatic voltage adjustments are required. The Black Level at this stabilized point will yield excellent picture performance.

The newest Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an improved automatic control which applies the voltage adjustments in smaller increments. This results in a more gradual change in the Black Level over time.
Need I say more. Additionally Panasonic CSRs have told many customers that the investigation is complete and there will be no fix because there is no problem. Many chats on Panasonic's concierge chat feature were posted on the AVS Forum where they contradict themselves in the same chat over, and over again. Please google this issue and you will never buy ANYTHING with a Panasonic badge of shame on it again.

Go on Bestbuy.com and do it, Amazon and do it, anywhere that will let you write a review, copy, paste it and come out with guns a blazin!!! Think of how many plasma consumers make online purchases. Think of how many check customer reviews. Do you think Panasonic checks these retailer's websites to see how people think of their crappy products. I'd be willing to bet my baby makers that they do. So let this be the beginning of the end of Panasonic's unacceptable treatment to it's most valued customers. Let us strike a blow that will resonate even through the headquarters of Samsung, LG, and what the heck, even the all mighty VIZIO!!! COMINIYEAHAAA!!!!!!

3) If they can find a workable fix, they'll release a firmware.

Originally Posted by armenian01

hey Hockeymac18 I also purchased my g10+warranty from bestbuy, was it difficult for you to get an exchange?

Originally Posted by Hockeymac18

No, it was not difficult because I was within the 30 day window (plus, they knew I was having issues, and were willing to work with me).

If you're outside the 30 day window, I'm still sure it's possible to get an exchange, especially if you purchased their warranty. I'd emphasize the issue and that you want it resolved somehow, and they'll work with you to make it work I'm sure. Just be persistent and polite about things, and they're usually understanding.

Originally Posted by mmoh00

Hm, my understanding is that the phosphor characteristics change pretty rapidly in the first 100 hrs or so and measurements drift, hence the break-in slides to speed things up before calibrating. Not sure why you got a pro cal done with less than 50 hrs on it.

MLL should not be affected by calibration unless the pre-cal measurement was taken with the brightness setting too high. Folks, make sure your brightness value is not set too high before judging the black level. If your pro did anything more special (which is unlikely), let us know.

Originally Posted by bphisig

The G15 is included with this black level issue? I think I remember reading that the guts of the G10 and G15 are the same. Ugh, I think I might cancel my order. My G15 is supposed to arrive Saturday.

Originally Posted by armenian01

wait until they are finished with their "investigation" of the issue then re-order it if they've found a solution

Originally Posted by mmoh00

I think it would be good if people can provide the meter information as well.

Originally Posted by Bdemers

OK Guys...

This thread's a mess, we know that. I'm one of those people who doesn't have a meter, and so my contributions are fairly useless.

In an effort to be more useful, I've put together a spreadsheet that tracks people's reported MLL and hours of the recording. I've only chosen to use reports that cited the number of hours.

My biggest observation from this chart is that most of the rise occurs before the 500 hour mark. The data after that is a little more sporadic so far, and harder to judge the trend. It appears to flatten out with time, as expected.

A few disclaimers:

This chart contains different models, some Neo-PDP, some not. The don't all start at the same MLL. I know this. That's why I've included lines to help track individual panels with multiple readings.

Although I have at some point read every single post in this thread, I have now missed some of the reports, and I know that. Please, if you can find additional data for the chart, PM me a link or the details. I'd like to have: Model, Hours, Reading.... for as many data points as possible.

Even if it's not your own data, but you have seen other readings posted here that I've missed, please PM me and point me in the right direction.

Also, I recall that there were some reports people made of NO increase after 2000 hours. From my hunt, I had trouble tracking them down. Please point these out to me as well.


As more data comes in, I'll post an updated chart for you all.

EDIT: New data's already coming in! (minutes after posting) I will give it a day or two to see what else comes in before updating the chart.

EDIT 2: Too much good data to wait! Big thanks to mmoh00 and Smoof15 for helping pull additional points in. Hope it's okay with TomHuffman, but I put his 85U data with a dashed line. He doesn't have data points between 0 and 1962 hours, and I don't want to imply that we know what he had in between!.