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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 123

post #3661 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderhund View Post

Update on this issue this morning from CNET:

Ouch. I'm really hoping my decision to go ahead and pick up a G10 with the assumption that if something was wrong they'd fix it doesn't bite me.

Good luck to those that have been affected. I hope if they hear enough about it, they'll at least think about reconsidering.
post #3662 of 11163
Folks, donnymac's brightness setting is fine. He used the plunge pattern and that's what we all do. THere are other calibrated v10's with 70's and even 80's. You just can't say it should be around 50 -- it varies greatly from model to model. No need to pollute the thread anymore with this non-sense. Panasonic's tech who looked at his set is as clueless as they come.
post #3663 of 11163
I will now be returning my "Infinite Gray" TC-P54S1 to Best Buy once the 30 day trial ends.
post #3664 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrift02 View Post

I second that. I have got readings >0.045 just based on IR from using the window pattern. If the room is light I will see readings around 0.017+. If I measure correctly in a dark room with no IR I am at 0.012, which is normal.

adrift, IR alone shouldn't get you 0.045 ftL. That's too high. I don't have the severe IR problem and my reading never goes up by more than 0.001 ftL after the window pattern IR. donnymac said his IR is so bad that his reading goes from 0.02x to 0.03x something. I suggest you either re-examine your meter or measurement technique.
post #3665 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

You no longer even have to prove your case. Panasonic just admitted it to Cnet.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10449939-1.html



"That statement maintained that the plasmas' black levels are designed to brighten over time ("background brightness will increase from its initial value") to "


brighten and doubling is quite different. .005 to .008 is not what all the crazyness is about. The .005 to .025 is what people are going nuts about, which they have every reason.

this was quite an interesting post

":"Originally Posted by wrinklefree
I think you have to take some of these black level measurements with a grain of salt because there's too much variation in how they could have been taken.

For instance how much ambient light was in the room? This could have a huge impact on readings especially with non-single bonded panels.

Also was the meter properly calibrated using a black opaque surface?

And finally how consistent is a $100 meter going to be? Is my .007 reading the same as your .007?""
post #3666 of 11163
Looks like it is done. Panny will NOT fix this. See Cnet update today.

news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10449939-1.html?tag=mncol;txt
post #3667 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I don't think it draws any more power, the brightness limiter just gets more aggressive. (noticed this on my second G10 and my V10, didn't look for it on my first G10)

Hmmm ... here's a thought for panny engineers ... make the firmware fix such that they piggyback extra functionality onto the main picture BRIGHTNESS user adjustment.

Seems to me cranking up the BRIGHTNESS essentially ups the voltage drive and increases MLL (makes it worse) ... what angry customers want is the REVERSE of this.

... so why not just tweak this control ... such that as the user backs off brightness , at certain level the voltage drive "backs off" to some previous level.

The fix could be released as a customer special firmware ... with supporting documentation detailing the BRIGHTNESS function change ... VOILA !!

jls.
post #3668 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Toyota should try the Panasonic explanation: Brakes are working just like we designed them, and therefore we will not be fixing them, but we have changed how they work in the cars we will sell from now on.

Yes.....
striking the audacity of this goofy panasonic ...
post #3669 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderhund View Post

Update on this issue this morning from CNET:

Panasonic does not plan fix for reported black level increases

It sounds like they have decided that a widescale FW fix is not feasible techinically because I think the decision is bound to hurt their 2010 sales. Every '10 reviews (not paid by Panny, that is) will have a big comment about this and will put a substantial doubt in people's mind. I was hoping they at least quantify the black change so people know what to expect.
post #3670 of 11163
Thats is it. My 58V10 was to arrive tomorrow, I just called to put a hold on it. Sammy 860 for me now.
post #3671 of 11163
I wonder if it's possible for me to get any sort of refund on my Plasma.

I bought my Plasma from VO in August, it's still under warranty, and I also bought an extra year of warranty from VO.

I bought it based on reviews and the picture I saw when I brought it home. Reading this response by Panasonic in that the set lighting up after a certain period of time is "by design" seems sort of a bait and switch.

Nowhere in their advertising do they mention that this is a feature of the TV or that it will eventually light up by design...

I think I should be entitled to a refund from Panasonic or VO... or some sort of equivalent TV exchange or something...

I think a report to the BBB might be good too.

Baiting and switching isn't an acceptable business practice, is it?
post #3672 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderhund View Post

Update on this issue this morning from CNET:

Panasonic does not plan fix for reported black level increases

Wow, that is an incredibly disappointing response. My G15 was the first Panasonic display product I've purchased and will most certainly be the last. There's absolutely no excuse for a five month old television no longer retaining a feature that served as one of its major selling points. I absolutely loved my G15 over the first several hundred hours I owned it. It's black levels are now equivalent to those displayed by the five year old LCD rear projection set it replaced. Add the annoyingly prevalent image retention and it's become a total waste of money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

I wonder if it's possible for me to get any sort of refund on my Plasma.

I'm wondering the same thing.
post #3673 of 11163
So is there a consensus on the number of HOURS of use when this 'doubling' kicks in???

(I have a 50G10)
post #3674 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

brighten and doubling is quite different. .005 to .008 is not what all the crazyness is about. The .005 to .025 is what people are going nuts about, which they have every reason.

The bottom line is that nobody has enough data at this point to say what the average black level increases will be. You are pulling .005 to .008 out of thin air. The fact that Panasonic has admitted to black level increasing over time justifies owners' concerns. Its up to the individual to decide whether an increase from .005 to .008 is unacceptable or 'crazy'. Its your opinion that its not a crazy change ... but there are a lot of people on this forum who are willing to pay big money for small gains in performance. Those same people are justifiably angered when they discover there is a possibility that they'll lose that small performance advantage in just a few thousand hours of viewing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

... If your set goes from .007 to .028 like audiotitis then GODDAMM id be pissed and hope it gets resolution. I am going to stop posting on this unless I get comments directed toward me, but with only a couple of people with actual readings vs millions of sets, i think my opinion stands strong. ...

You should have added "for the next hour and fifty minutes".
post #3675 of 11163
[quote=ts-x;18101442]Wow, that is an incredibly disappointing response. My G15 was the first Panasonic display product I've purchased and will most certainly be the last. There's absolutely no excuse for a five month old television no longer retaining a feature that served as one of its major selling points. I absolutely loved my G15 over the first several hundred hours I owned it. It's black levels are now equivalent to those displayed by the five year old LCD rear projection set it replaced. Add the annoyingly prevalent image retention and it's become a total waste of money.

well pendragoon said he has received a refund for this. I hope everyone else does as well. Thats the least they could do. They should just replace will equaled value newer model in my opinion if they want to win back these customers. Prove these newer sets are better with this problem.nn
post #3676 of 11163
My advise is for everyone to call Panasonic and demand a refund for their Plasma. Tell them that you don't want a product that is intentionally sabotaged by the company making it. (the blacks are the best part of these sets, and they are designed to get worse over time, if that isn't sabotage then I don't know what is.) I'm still waiting for my refund to arrive in the mail. (should be here by the 17th)

Would 9g Kuro owners be happy if the blacks went from .001 to .006?

Would sports car owners be happy if it went from 500hp to 250hp?

Would Hybrid car owners be happy if it went from 50mpg to 25mpg?

Why should we be happy with this?
post #3677 of 11163
Fine, just what I expected... No fix.

My G10 does still deliver a fantastic picure, but not as dark as when new. You can't maintain those original drive voltage levels. They have to be raise or else you end up having the sort of problems that LG and Samsung had a few years back with green or red dots, and pixels misfiring.

On the LG models there were three Drive Voltage adjustment pots that could be tweaked to get rid of the green dots, one in particular Vscn I believe, did the trick.

IS THERE ANY WAY TO ADUST THE 2009 PANASONICS DRIVE VOLTAGAGE??

It is now probably all computer controlled, which will maintain sharp, good picture performance longer, if done right. It would be nice to be able to tweak it ourselves if possible, but I still think that lowering the drive too much will hurt overall performance, which is why Panasonic will not do it. And the fact that with time the panel voltage gets to where they want it too be in the end.

greg
post #3678 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

brighten and doubling is quite different. .005 to .008 is not what all the crazyness is about. The .005 to .025 is what people are going nuts about, which they have every reason.

this was quite an interesting post

":"Originally Posted by wrinklefree
I think you have to take some of these black level measurements with a grain of salt because there's too much variation in how they could have been taken.

For instance how much ambient light was in the room? This could have a huge impact on readings especially with non-single bonded panels.

Also was the meter properly calibrated using a black opaque surface?

And finally how consistent is a $100 meter going to be? Is my .007 reading the same as your .007?""


What part of Panasonic admitting that they: "set the voltage level changes to the pixels" TOO AGRESSIVELY", and that they have dialed it way back in the 2010 models, to avoid causing the same problem, don't you get?
post #3679 of 11163
Now I will not even consider the 54V25 as Panasonic whistling past the graveyard is the last straw. Strikingly similar to the arrogant hijinks currently on display for the past year in Washington, D.C. After this, I personally hope the plasma portion of this company whithers and dies on the vine chasing 3D nonsense. The hubris of these jerks is astounding. Appears they only bought the Pioneer technology just to not use it. Sheer genius!!!!!

I still have a 2005 Zenith ED Plaz delivering better blacks than some of my fellow AVS'ers do now. Sheesh!!!!

Sammy here I come.
post #3680 of 11163
[quote=edpowers;18101476]The bottom line is that nobody has enough data at this point to say what the average black level increases will be. You are pulling .005 to .008 out of thin air. The fact that Panasonic has admitted to black level increasing over time justifies owners' concerns. Its up to the individual to decide whether an increase from .005 to .008 is unacceptable or 'crazy'. Its your opinion that its not a crazy change ... but there are a lot of people on this forum who are willing to pay big money for small gains in performance. Those same people are justifiably angered when they discover there is a possibility that they'll lose that small performance advantage in just a few thousand hours of viewing.

well you must not read well. I took those numbers from actual claims that some people had on here. People that do not have a doubling issue but have seen over a certain amount of hours, there blacks lighten. Now if you READ the cnet article, panasonic explained it should not be seen by the trained eye, the change over 3 years. That is why I posted the .007-.010 change. This thread states a doubling overnite, not over time. Am I wrong there or did I read the thread wrong. Even so, people can be angry about a slight change over time.. i have no problem with people that speak out on this. But thats not what this thread states or all this commotion is about. When someone says my TV now looks like a 5 year LCD, I doubt a minimal raise like I stated would back there comments. ...
post #3681 of 11163
These panels are also temperature compensated. The current setting of the driving voltages are added to or subtracted form depending on panel temperature.

I'm a firm believer that the panels get darker as they warm up or if they are displaying a bright picture, aka inceased heat. And as they cool, 0 ire, the mll lightens with time. Still could just be my eyes adusting.

Maybe were can trick the single rear panel mounted temp. sensor into reading higher or lower, which ever is the way to go to decrease driving voltage.

My 54g10 is still appears about twice as dark as my 2008 32"panny 720p LCD. Is that good? Still haven't got a meter.
post #3682 of 11163
Well, it appears that the market and panny is speaking, the G10's are now like 700$ off, selling a 46G10 for 850$ now, I was going to buy one but won't now - I wonder how mu 9UK is fairing, I hadn't really noticed too much but the other day it seemed a bit DIMMER.

Is there a way to test this?
post #3683 of 11163
Sounds like this is a major screw-up with Panasonic and I'm really not sure what's next for us 12g plasma owners. I think I may break down and purchase the I1LT off of Amazon and try to measure this for myself while still under warranty. At least I would have the numbers to show Panasonic if they tried to blow me off and I could demand a refund or replacement with a 2010 model. I wish I would have found this thread before I purchased my G15 (based on *glowing* reviews of the G10). I would have waited for the 2010 models for sure to see if they have the same problem.

Bias lighting will help, it did with my situation, but I still feel like Panasonic is trying to sweep this under the rug, not good for public perception and confidence in their products.

live and learn gentlemen.
post #3684 of 11163
Markets are idiotic.

The 2009 Plasma's are sold out just about everywhere. They were all clearence price anyway.

Two months ago Toyota's were the highest priced used piece of craps on the road. Horribly boring vehicles that only had their safety and reliablity to go on. Now they don't even have that. Will the market speak....who cares.
post #3685 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

adrift, IR alone shouldn't get you 0.045 ftL. That's too high. I don't have the severe IR problem and my reading never goes up by more than 0.001 ftL after the window pattern IR. donnymac said his IR is so bad that his reading goes from 0.02x to 0.03x something. I suggest you either re-examine your meter or measurement technique.

Well, that may have been an abnormality (I assumed it was IR as it does affect readings). But, the point is, readings are affected by IR and ambient light; more than 0.001 in my case. Not saying peoples results are all invalid, just saying there can be error.
post #3686 of 11163
it's been interesting watching the sammy 8 series thread light up over the past few weeks. This news as mentioned before http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...CmoreStories.0 , this does bode well for samsung, but not plasma in the long run sadly.
post #3687 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack2 View Post

I've been hoping for a long time I'd never find myself posting this here, but the minimum luminance of my 12G pro model has increased.

I originally measured .007 ftL with my i1d2 and at 610 hours it is at .01 ftL.

That is basically normal -- as has been discussed, there will almost always be SOME change in MLL due to the voltage adjustment -- we know at this point it is inherent to the panel. I think starting out in the 0.005-0.080 range, and stabilizing in the 0.010-0.015 range (give or take depending on the model), is probably within the realm of "normal" operation, and still quite excellent. Remember that our perception of brightness is not linear -- going from 0.005 to 0.010 is not going to look like "double". So if your set stabilizes around there, I think you shouldn't assume something is broken or not working as intended.

IMHO, it's these outlier cases where there is a sudden jump from 0.008 to 0.027 literally overnight that is the problem!!
post #3688 of 11163
For those of you who are experiencing the rapid black level, turning gray problem, and own a model that is THX certified:

This may provide you another avenue to look into. THX is supposed to have Luminance Standards as part of their Guarantee. Read your papers or go to the THX site, and read up on how long they guarantee the idle luminance standards for.

If you are are still covered, and your THX set can no longer perform to that level, you might be able to pursue your complaint through THX, and since they certify for Panasonic, they might be able to force Panasonic to provide a fix or replacement. Give it a shot, and let us know what you find out.
post #3689 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

How about posting the contrast ratio too ? before and after.

That will be next to useless without standardizing a specific technique.

If you think the MLL measurements are going to be plagued by variation due to technique, meter, ambient light, etc. the contrast ratio figure will be 50 times worse!! What technique will you use? on/off contrast? ANSI contrast? what if people have their TV calibrated to 35ftL for a dim room, and others have it pumped to 50ftL for a bright room?

I think posting contrast ratios measured by home users without any standardization is going to be worse than useless, misleading at best...
post #3690 of 11163
so typical of panasonic to just brush this problem under the rug, I hope the 2010 TV's do the same thing, and nobody buys them. Any other TV's that could compare to the early G10? and wont have this problem? I'm def trying to return my G10 possibly for an LCD
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