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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 124

post #3691 of 11162
I have a 2008 TH-C42FD18 (similar to the 42pz80u) and I have noticed higher black levels, and much worse image retention in recent months, I'm around 2200 hours on my panel. Until I found this thread, I thought there was something wrong with my panel.

I used to be a big fan of panasonic plasmas, thats not true anymore.
post #3692 of 11162
^^ Me too was a fan. Bye-Bye Panny, Sammy here I come.
post #3693 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

That is basically normal -- as has been discussed, there will almost always be SOME change in MLL due to the voltage adjustment -- we know at this point it is inherent to the panel. I think starting out in the 0.005-0.080 range, and stabilizing in the 0.010-0.015 range (give or take depending on the model), is probably within the realm of "normal" operation, and still quite excellent. Remember that our perception of brightness is not linear -- going from 0.005 to 0.010 is not going to look like "double". So if your set stabilizes around there, I think you shouldn't assume something is broken or not working as intended.

IMHO, it's these outlier cases where there is a sudden jump from 0.008 to 0.027 literally overnight that is the problem!!


One thing I see is that 58 and 65" models seem to be doing much better. All below 0.010 so far. We clearly could use more data points with >1500hrs. We will get them as time goes, I guess. But so far we have 4 measurements with 1500+ hrs. (LarryInRI's latest 0.024 ftL number for 50X1 is not shown in the chart yet.) Three of them are above 0.020 and one is 0.018. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that the settling level for most units (except 58/65 inchers) will be above 0.020 ftL rather than below (but I'd be happy to be wrong). I suspect '10 models will be similar based on Panny's statement. If so, it's up to each owner and perspective buyer to decide whether that's a problem or the price of TV justifies it. I do notice that some people (Larry and couple others IIRC) with elevated blacks w/ or w/o meter still find the picture quality good in normal viewing while some says it's all washed out and such.
post #3694 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by afxtwn View Post

While this thread is 100% necessary and should continue, I think we all need to band together and spend our time elsewhere to fight this now!!! I have a proposal. I just wrote a review on Amazon.com as I am now the owner of a 65V10 that transformed into a 65" Vizio LCD with severe IR!!! It only took a Jan 2010 build 135 to 150 hours to develop it's "Panel Cancer". Yes we now need to dub it this as that is exactly what it is!!! Every owner of one of these infected panels needs to go online and write their own variation of this:

This is how your review will appear:


1.0 out of 5 stars BUYER BEWARE!!! DO NOT BUY PANASONIC PLASMAS!!!, February 8, 2010
By YarnSOupOFTHEDAY "SOups" (INDIANA) - See all my reviews
Panasonic is widely known as a major manufacturer of some of the most popular plasma displays available. What is not known however is that this company is EXTREMELY cruel and has no regard for the customers that pump out thousands of dollars for their sets. It is becoming more and more public as each day passes that one of the MAJOR features of this set (the only one in my opinion that would set it apart from the remaining plasma competition) it's black levels, are stripped away in an unacceptably short amount of time. Numerous long time members of enthusiasts website "AVS Forum" have posted results taken by actual light meters that their black levels had DOUBLED in as little as 200 to 300 hours of use. In addition, a feature that is a marketing gimmick to begin with also becomes even more of a non-feature when this bug in their software begins it's reign of terror on the panel. I am referring to none other that the "infinite black feature". Now you would think that this feature enables the T.V to display an infinite level of black in content viewed on the panel lending an unparalleled amount of depth, richness, and realism to the images. Um...no. All it does is drops an input with either no signal, or an image that does not require one pixel to be lit up to 0.00FTL. Which is essentially absolute black. Rest assured that if one lowly little pixel lights up, your infinite black 0.00FTL turns into 0.08FTL, which is not bad at all, but by no means infinite black. Hold on it gets better. This feature as useless as it is, is only available in the most useless of all AV selections, that's right folks, Vivid. Try this on Custom, Game, Standard, or even the mighty (sorry I just threw up a little in my mouth) THX mode, and it's a no go. Well, when the panel "Cancer" begins, one of the symptoms is that you may loose this wonderful feature. Essentially you will have an LCD with none of the perks of an LCD. The once rich deep picture becomes a washed out, uninspiring mess to look at. I hoped that I might be spared of this disease but as soon as I hit around 130 hours, my lush beautiful Panasonic plasma transformed into a 65" LCD that only gets half as bright as an LCD and none of the pop either. Not to mention I get a free side order of severe image retention to go along with it. There is no way Panasonic does not know exactly what is causing this. The "leaders" of this company could have all of the people that know every inner working of this T.V assembled in a room within a day if they wanted (which no doubt they did) and have the issue explained to them as this is a necessary "job" for every display to do. However, Panasonic is the only plasma that compromises it's black levels to do so. Voltages that charge the display's pixels need to be adjusted to compensate for wear on the materials in the panel. Panasonic basically bought themselves a stretch Hummer made of platinum to compensate for the little winky in it's pants. Basically I am saying that the voltage increases are way overcompensated. Sorry, I can be a little evil when I am angry. Anyway, this is the statement that Panasonic has released to C-Net.
"Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs deliver exceptional picture performance throughout the lifetime of these products. Various elements and material characteristics of all electronic displays change with use over time. In order to achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set, Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an automatic control which adjusts an internal driving voltage at predetermined intervals of operational hours.

As a result of this automatic voltage adjustment, background brightness will increase from its initial value. After several years of typical use, the internal material characteristics will stabilize and no additional automatic voltage adjustments are required. The Black Level at this stabilized point will yield excellent picture performance.

The newest Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an improved automatic control which applies the voltage adjustments in smaller increments. This results in a more gradual change in the Black Level over time.
Need I say more. Additionally Panasonic CSRs have told many customers that the investigation is complete and there will be no fix because there is no problem. Many chats on Panasonic's concierge chat feature were posted on the AVS Forum where they contradict themselves in the same chat over, and over again. Please google this issue and you will never buy ANYTHING with a Panasonic badge of shame on it again.

Go on Bestbuy.com and do it, Amazon and do it, anywhere that will let you write a review, copy, paste it and come out with guns a blazin!!! Think of how many plasma consumers make online purchases. Think of how many check customer reviews. Do you think Panasonic checks these retailer's websites to see how people think of their crappy products. I'd be willing to bet my baby makers that they do. So let this be the beginning of the end of Panasonic's unacceptable treatment to it's most valued customers. Let us strike a blow that will resonate even through the headquarters of Samsung, LG, and what the heck, even the all mighty VIZIO!!! COMINIYEAHAAA!!!!!!

i give this review 0 out of 5 stars. it seems like it was written by an overzealous 13 yo. do you expect anybody to take this review seriously? i would have to think that you never owned it either after reading this. most people would think you're some kind of friggin' fanboy. what's really amusing, is that you have the balls to copy and paste your drivel on a website such as this.
post #3695 of 11162
The least Panasonic could have done is to notify those with case numbers. THey didn't even do that...
post #3696 of 11162
I ask because I received this email today: Thank you for your inquiry. Panasonic is aware of and investigating the posting to AV Science Forum (AVS Forum) where customers have reported the TV?s black level appears to have become grayer, or the black level measurements have changed from it?s original measurements. Panasonic will follow-up with customers after this has been investigated and will provide the customer with Panasonic?s findings. Thank you for your inquiry.

We do not have a date as of yet but it will be within the next few months.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Thank you for contacting Panasonic.
Agent Vincent Moore says: That is an older release. It's not current.
post #3697 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

One thing I see is that 58 and 65" models seem to be doing much better. All below 0.010 so far. We clearly could use more data points with >1500hrs. We will get them as time goes, I guess. But so far we have 4 measurements with 1500+ hrs. (LarryInRI's latest 0.024 ftL number for 50X1 is not shown in the chart yet.) Three of them are above 0.020 and one is 0.018. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that the settling level for most units (except 58/65 inchers) will be above 0.020 ftL rather than below (but I'd be happy to be wrong). I suspect '10 models will be similar based on Panny's statement. If so, it's up to each owner and perspective buyer to decide whether that's a problem or the price of TV justifies it. I do notice that some people (Larry and couple others IIRC) with elevated blacks w/ or w/o meter still find the picture quality good in normal viewing while some says it's all washed out and such.

Hmmm ... another interesting clue ...

If it turns out to be true that the LARGER panels are less prone to MLL rising ... then this suggests to me ... that the larger cells in the 58/65 panels are handling the voltage drive increases more elegantly ... OR the s/w that ups the voltage is better suited to the larger panels.

Of course, you could speculate that the smaller panels got the wrong s/w modules for their smaller sized cells ... by accident or by design oversight. OR, that the code in this area is buggy and needed to be tweaked on a per panel size basis.

jls.
post #3698 of 11162
Or that the larger panels have much tighter quality control (easy to believe, to get good yield on larger sizes the quality control has to be much better) so they fall into the original expected range that the engineers designed the voltage changes for.

It is fascinating to me that everyone assumes this is a firmware glitch, and discounts that the panels that have the huge jumps could be outliers/at the edge on the quality control bell curve. Certainly everyone understands that all the panels have variations, otherwise, there would be only one set of calibration settings needed for all panels to look perfect. And from some of the calibrations posted, we can certainly see lots of variations in the settings.

Come to think of it, it might be interesting to see if there is any correlation between the settings needed to calibrate a set on all the panels with large black level increases. Not that I think this is a cause (changing the settings), but rather an indicator of a panel that is far enough out of spec to react poorly to the predetermined voltage changes.

Andrew

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

Hmmm ... another interesting clue ...

If it turns out to be true that the LARGER panels are less prone to MLL rising ... then this suggests to me ... that the larger cells in the 58/65 panels are handling the voltage drive increases more elegantly ... OR the s/w that ups the voltage is better suited to the larger panels.

Of course, you could speculate that the smaller panels got the wrong s/w modules for their smaller sized cells ... by accident or by design oversight. OR, that the code in this area is buggy and needed to be tweaked on a per panel size basis.

jls.
post #3699 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

One thing I see is that 58 and 65" models seem to be doing much better. All below 0.010 so far.

58" and 65" 12G Panasonics should hover around the 0.005 - 0.0068fL range. If someone's panel is measuring above that range, the black levels are rising.
post #3700 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportwagon View Post

It is fascinating to me that everyone assumes this is a firmware glitch, and discounts that the panels that have the huge jumps could be outliers/at the edge on the quality control bell curve. Certainly everyone understands that all the panels have variations, otherwise, there would be only one set of calibration settings needed for all panels to look perfect. And from some of the calibrations posted, we can certainly see lots of variations in the settings.

Your "outliers/at the edge on the quality control bell curve" theory is false.
post #3701 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

58" and 65" 12G Panasonics should hover around the 0.005 - 0.0068fL range. If someone's panel is measuring above that range, the black levels are rising.

Yes, that's what I said about mjmorrison's flat 0.0087 readings. Based on your earlier comment, I suspected it was an elevated level (although many may find acceptable) from the OOB initial level. So far your comment about the initial MLL for 58/65 and the smaller panels has been spot on.

Any guess on what the settling MLL will be for 58/65 and the rest?
post #3702 of 11162
D-Nice, now that Panasonic has admitted to the black level rise is there anything more that you can share with us about it?
post #3703 of 11162
D-Nice,

What is your opinion on why some people have no problem with this, some have small rises and some have black levels that have literally tripled in 8 months or less. Do you think the Infinite black system not working is due to the increased brightness of the panel not reaching a certain black threshold to allow it to turn on?
post #3704 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

D-Nice, now that Panasonic has admitted to the black level rise is there anything more that you can share with us about it?

Nope. That is there job I told you guys a long time ago that in one of my original posts. You guys are going to have to really pressure them to do something. It can be fixed. Its just requires them to spend an ass of money to do it.
post #3705 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

D-Nice,

What is your opinion on why some people have no problem with this, some have small rises and some have black levels that have literally tripled in 8 months or less. Do you think the Infinite black system not working is due to the increased brightness of the panel not reaching a certain black threshold to allow it to turn on?

The same reason why some people are ok with Vivid mode while others have to have their display calibrated. Its the human factor.
post #3706 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Nope. That is there job I told you guys a long time ago that in one of my original posts. You guys are going to have to really pressure them to do something. It can be fixed. Its just requires them to spend an ass of money to do it.

Do you now think this is a lost cause with this press release?
post #3707 of 11162
I just spoke with a CSR on the phone, and they are still telling me that they're "evaluating the issue". Maybe they just haven't received the update yet.
post #3708 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Nope. That is there job I told you guys a long time ago that in one of my original posts. You guys are going to have to really pressure them to do something. It can be fixed. Its just requires them to spend an ass of money to do it.

Can the "fix" also restore elevated blacks to good levels or it can only *prevent* future rises?
post #3709 of 11162
D-Nice, is it possible you inform DK over at CNET that you know that this CAN be fixed?
post #3710 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

D-Nice, is it possible you inform DK over at CNET that you know that this CAN be fixed?

I already planned to do that.
post #3711 of 11162
I'd imagine this delays the "THX fix"

Why send an engineer to update FW twice, when you can send them once.
post #3712 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Do you now think this is a lost cause with this press release?

"Never give up! Never surrender!"
post #3713 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I already planned to do that.

THanks for all your help throughout this whole situation. You've initiated a HUGE amount of progress on this issue. You've also given me hope that we'll see a fix.
post #3714 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

I'd imagine this delays the "THX fix"

Why send an engineer to update FW twice, when you can send them once.

Well as of now there is no fix planned.
post #3715 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

"Never give up! Never surrender!"

I understand if you can't answer this, but saying the fix would cost a ton, would it

A: Be available as firmware?
B: Be available relatively soon?

Thanks
post #3716 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

I understand if you can't answer this, but saying the fix would cost a ton, would it

A: Be available as firmware?
B: Be available relatively soon?

Thanks

I've got a feeling that based on the "cost a ton" part that it would require the development of a new panel and the delivery cost to get it out there to all those affected by the rise. *read every unit sold so far*

I may be way off on this one though.
post #3717 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I've got a feeling that based on the "cost a ton" part that it would require the development of a new panel and the delivery cost to get it out there to all those affected by the rise. *read every unit sold so far*

I may be way off on this one though.

Perhaps, but I think I remember D-Nice mentioning firmware. Could be wrong though
post #3718 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Nope. That is there job I told you guys a long time ago that in one of my original posts. You guys are going to have to really pressure them to do something. It can be fixed. Its just requires them to spend an ass of money to do it.

A firmware glitch would not require to spend an ass of money to fix, especially if its something as simple as aggressive overdriving as you clearly hint at. I personally find the "outlier/bell curve" theory much more logical. The cost of fixing that would be significant.
post #3719 of 11162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dead pixel View Post

A firmware glitch would not require to spend an ass of money to fix, especially if its something as simple as aggressive overdriving as you clearly hint at.

So, you think Panasonic is going to allow an end user to install updated software that deals with drive voltage? Not going to happen. Service tech minimum.... end result... Millions to fix.


Quote:
I personally find the "outlier/bell curve" theory much more logical.

Good luck with that theory.
post #3720 of 11162
Firstly, to D-Nice, Orta, Dave K., and everyone else that has helped investigate this issue: THANK YOU!


Quote:
Originally Posted by djbrettb View Post

I just spoke with a CSR on the phone, and they are still telling me that they're "evaluating the issue". Maybe they just haven't received the update yet.

I just got off an hour long phone conversation with a Panasonic CSR, Eric. (59 minutes and 20 seconds, to be exact) At first, he read the statement that it was "under investigation." I pointed him to the C-Net article and had him read it. We were then conversing about the issues that I've had and how we are going to proceed. Then, he said that he just received a statement: "The investigation is complete and no issues were found. All panels are performing within specification and a fix is not necessary." (paraphrasing, but you get the idea) This was after he said that he would forward my claim to "VCS" since there were no supervisors available for me. He then said that he could not forward my request because there is no issue. We continued talking, and he agreed to forward my claim to his supervisor(s) and "VCS" and I would be hearing back within 1-3 business days.

Will make another post in a moment...
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