Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 125

The same reason why some people are ok with Vivid mode while others have to have their display calibrated. Its the human factor.

Do you now think this is a lost cause with this press release?

I just spoke with a CSR on the phone, and they are still telling me that they're "evaluating the issue". Maybe they just haven't received the update yet.

Can the "fix" also restore elevated blacks to good levels or it can only *prevent* future rises?

D-Nice, is it possible you inform DK over at CNET that you know that this CAN be fixed?

I already planned to do that.

I'd imagine this delays the "THX fix"

Why send an engineer to update FW twice, when you can send them once.

"Never give up! Never surrender!"

THanks for all your help throughout this whole situation. You've initiated a HUGE amount of progress on this issue. You've also given me hope that we'll see a fix.

Well as of now there is no fix planned.

I understand if you can't answer this, but saying the fix would cost a ton, would it

A: Be available as firmware?
B: Be available relatively soon?

Thanks

I've got a feeling that based on the "cost a ton" part that it would require the development of a new panel and the delivery cost to get it out there to all those affected by the rise. *read every unit sold so far*

I may be way off on this one though.

Perhaps, but I think I remember D-Nice mentioning firmware. Could be wrong though

A firmware glitch would not require to spend an ass of money to fix, especially if its something as simple as aggressive overdriving as you clearly hint at. I personally find the "outlier/bell curve" theory much more logical. The cost of fixing that would be significant.

So, you think Panasonic is going to allow an end user to install updated software that deals with drive voltage? Not going to happen. Service tech minimum.... end result... Millions to fix.



Good luck with that theory.

Firstly, to D-Nice, Orta, Dave K., and everyone else that has helped investigate this issue: THANK YOU!



I just got off an hour long phone conversation with a Panasonic CSR, Eric. (59 minutes and 20 seconds, to be exact) At first, he read the statement that it was "under investigation." I pointed him to the C-Net article and had him read it. We were then conversing about the issues that I've had and how we are going to proceed. Then, he said that he just received a statement: "The investigation is complete and no issues were found. All panels are performing within specification and a fix is not necessary." (paraphrasing, but you get the idea) This was after he said that he would forward my claim to "VCS" since there were no supervisors available for me. He then said that he could not forward my request because there is no issue. We continued talking, and he agreed to forward my claim to his supervisor(s) and "VCS" and I would be hearing back within 1-3 business days.

Will make another post in a moment...

Going by his response, I'd say it is a lost cause if one is looking for a an official fix for every affected panel. Notice that he said it CAN be fixed, but it would COST A LOT OF MONEY for panasonic to fix. From that I can deduct that the "fix" would not be a firmware release, but more along the lines of replacement panels and/or circuit boards. Trying to put 1 + 1 together between what D-nice has said and panasonic's statements so far, I can see panasonic not issuing a blanket fix/recall, and instead just dealing individually with those who complain enough for them to fix/replace their TV's. The scenario I can see is for those still within warranty by the time 2010 models become available, panasonic would probably exchange faulty units for 2010 models or issue refunds, as long as the customer whines enough and becomes a pain in their rear. A customer complaining about horrific black level rise and bad IR, once confirmed by a technician, would probably get some kind of "fix". Squeaky wheel gets the grease afterall....

D-Nice, thanks for all the info you have provided in this and many other threads here at AVS. I do have one question regarding this issue if you are able to answer it. You've stated the issue can be fixed...a while back there was some question on what that meant - once the voltages are corrected, would that return mll to previous levels, or merely prevent further over-aggresive increases and the owner would be "stuck" at the level that existed at the time a fix is implemented?

It seems more and more like Panasonic will just try to bury the issue under the rug...

D, way back when you asked us if we noticed a change in the amount of video noise we saw when the blacks became elevated, meaning that the video noise was reduced. If, through firmware, we get our old blacks back does that mean the increased video noise comes with it to?

Maybe the fix will come through marketing: It's not "grey", it's "Panasonic Black".

D-Nice, will this issue be fixed in the 2010 models? Is a replacement for a 2010 model more likely than an actual fix?

Or the manufacturing process and production line overhaul to accomodate whatever the design change is simply, from Panasonic's business justification perspective, too costly.

Firmware by itself is very cheap to produce and deliver. It only gets expensive if there are incorporated licensing fees to pay for, or similar such baggage.

I never really thought a blanket firmware could fix this issue as it probably depends on the individual set as to what degree of drive voltage regulation is necessary.

Hmm, while I respect all your knowledge on these displays, as a firmware engineer myself I don't agree with your statement. Much more dangerous things have been sent out in firmware updates that users need to apply themselves. You don't want to know what is in some computer system BIOS firmware upgrades! It just requires a lot of testing.

But even if they did want to send out service techs to do the upgrade, they probably wouldn't do it to all customers, only for those that called and complained, which, despite the activity here, I bet would only amount to a very small percentage of the total number sold (note I did not say that only a small percentage of panels affected, just that only a small number of folks will call and complain).

Ok, so maybe a firmware + service menu tweak combination performed by a panasonic tech?

Is it even possible to apply a firmware update, service tech or not, in a controlled manner? It seem like you either apply it or you don't. If you apply it and it breaks the TV, what does the presence of a service tech provide? Except, I suppose, to replace the broken pieces?

Just asking, not trying to be a pain ...

Between the current CNET statement and what this CSR has said...you can see how the company will make this impossible to prove.

If you report that your black levels are elevated, they automatically will say it's normal and within spec. You will be told this without anyone ever looking at your set. If you persist and ask the obvious question - what IS the spec? - you will be told that is proprietary and confidential information and cannot be released to the public. If you ever get a service call set up for this, a technician can come look at the set and say it looks good - ending any chance you have of being taken seriously.

Stonewalling at it's finest...

All I know is I can make my blacks a nasty grey or a deep black depending completely on my user settings. And the source material I am viewing has a huge impact on this. For example, when viewing Dish Networks crappy compressed signal I change my black level from light to dark.(Without doing this my sony lcd blows my panny away on this particular source.)While watching bLu-ray and other High-Definition sources I tend to use the light black level settings.

I'm not sure how accurate it is, but I use "Spears and Munsil" for my black level calibration.

Here is a link:http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/artic...sscontrol.html

I had a technician out today to replace my power board. (previously replaced the A-board as a Panasonic tech-claimed "temporary fix" to my black level issue) While using my 50G10 one morning, it made an audible pop and then flashed the 10 light error. To my surprise, it turned back on after this. However, it then popped again, this time louder, and smoke came out of both sides of the bezel for a few seconds. The power LED flashed 6 times. The technicians contracted by my warranty company concluded that this was the P-board, and sure enough when the technician took the back off of my TV today there were a few black marks on the top portion of the board. They replaced it and my TV powered on as normal, but I showed the tech the visible problems with my TV including black level, image retention, (I had more IR then I thought... it was BAD) and the "Infinite Black's" failure to engage. I draped a comforter over the TV to show him this and he was amazed at how he couldn't see this in the daylight. He seen the issue.

He called Panasonic with the forward warning that "they probably won't do anything." Sure enough, they didn't. They simply told him that "the issue is under investigation." I asked him if I could speak to the tech on the phone. The phone tech said that he "didn't want to speak with me." What great service!

The tech gathered his things, wished me luck, and left. I immediately got on the phone with my warranty company to forward all the information to them and further state my claim. I went online when I was put on hold, seen the statement from Bob Perry, and then told the customer rep when she returned. She concluded that the next step would have to be an evaluation for a replacement television since there is no fix for my issue. This could take "3-5" business days, but I have no reason to distrust my warranty company at this time so I will let them do their thing. After that I called Panasonic. Now it's a waiting game unless I don't hear a call back within the next week from either party.

I know what can be included is motherboard BIOS updates You have to understand this is not a BIOS update and fixing the idle blacks via end users is not going to happen.