or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 14

post #391 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

Any idea how many hours before to notice the black level increase? Is there a consensus? I am close to 300 hours.

mine after 1500 but i guess others after 500 to 1000
post #392 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

Have any of you actually thrown in the DVE Blu-ray and checked you before and after brightness adjustment, or is this all pure speculation?

I still find this whole thing hard to believe.

Several have at least stated that they have done just this and still get a big glow and high readings.....I don't know what the entire truth to the situation is, but it doesn't look great.

On a side note, what makes the no input blacks darker on a V10? Does it have a darker AR filter?
post #393 of 11163
I think this is something that is fixable through firmware. Does anyone try to adjust through service menu? I know your warranty will become void if you enter there.
post #394 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

I think this is something that is fixable through firmware. Does anyone try to adjust through service menu? I know your warranty will become void if you enter there.

Whether that is true or not there is certainly no firmware currently designed for this.
post #395 of 11163
I think an average viewer won't really care about rise in black levels. I bet they have sold 1000s of G10s, V10s, S10s, X1.. etc. We have only about a handful complaining to panasonic. I am not even sure how seriously Panasonic would take this up. It is barely negligible. In India they are selling like hotcakes. 42G10s. They don't even have THX and lot of features stripped off. I very much doubt it will be getting serious attention. Lot of users that i come across don't even care to know what is black level. It is like 0.0025% complaining about this.

But issues like Image Retention, Buzzing will get the attention of an average user more than this issue. So unless it is a much bigger deal breaker Panasonic will try to sit this one out.
post #396 of 11163
The point is not if people notice,the point is Panasonic has a real problem with its 2009 models if people are buying based on quality black levels.What if they keep rising as the set ages?
post #397 of 11163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

Have any of you actually thrown in the DVE Blu-ray and checked you before and after brightness adjustment, or is this all pure speculation?

I still find this whole thing hard to believe.

This is linked to in the OP as well but:

Point of interest is the luminance "Y" value, 0% Gray. Values are in cd/m^2, not fL.

Earlier Measure: Gray Scale with "Brightness" at 64-67: Before MLL elevation.



Current Measure: Gray Scale at "Brightness" 0 (ZERO): Post MLL elevation

post #398 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg3 View Post

The point is not if people notice,the point is Panasonic has a real problem with its 2009 models if people are buying based on quality black levels.What if they keep rising as the set ages?

I understand where you are coming from. But honestly how many people buy a plasma let alone panasonic plasma for its black level. 10% tops? I don't try to justify it. I will be very surprised if Panasonic does anything about it. Probably they will take care of it in their future models.
post #399 of 11163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

I think an average viewer won't really care about rise in black levels. I bet they have sold 1000s of G10s, V10s, S10s, X1.. etc. We have only about a handful complaining to panasonic. I am not even sure how seriously Panasonic would take this up. It is barely negligible. In India they are selling like hotcakes. 42G10s. They don't even have THX and lot of features stripped off. I very much doubt it will be getting serious attention. Lot of users that i come across don't even care to know what is black level. It is like 0.0025% complaining about this.

But issues like Image Retention, Buzzing will get the attention of an average user more than this issue. So unless it is a much bigger deal breaker Panasonic will try to sit this one out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

I understand where you are coming from. But honestly how many people buy a plasma let alone panasonic plasma for its black level. 10% tops? I don't try to justify it. I will be very surprised if Panasonic does anything about it. Probably they will take care of it in their future models.

No only would the average viewer not care, it would pretty much be impossible for them to even notice it. Given the garbage AR filters on these, as little as 5 or 10 Lux of ambient light is going to completely nullify this effect. I don't expect Panasonic is ever going to address this issue, not because of the number of complaints, but because they have a reason for doing it (if it is in fact on purpose). The odds of an oversight like this going on for 3 or 4+ model years has to be incredibly small. Only time I could see it going away is if they ever achieve honest to goodness extreme contrast, as it would likely require an over haul of their base technologies that would be necessitating a change like this.
post #400 of 11163
they have to do something...i bought the plasma for deeper blacks and now the blacks are glowing. I still have warranty on the TV !!! If i buy a Ferrari i dont expect the car to be fast only for 1 year. Same with plasma.... if panasonic promised deeper then deep blacks i expect. if they don't do something i will complain at BBB and FCC
post #401 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

No only would the average viewer not care, it would pretty much be impossible for them to even notice it. Given the garbage AR filters on these, as little as 5 or 10 Lux of ambient light is going to completely nullify this effect. I don't expect Panasonic is ever going to address this issue, not because of the number of complaints, but because they have a reason for doing it (if it is in fact on purpose). The odds of an oversight like this going on for 3 or 4+ model years has to be incredibly small. Only time I could see it going away is if they ever achieve honest to goodness extreme contrast, as it would likely require an over haul of their base technologies that would be necessitating a change like this.

That is my thought as well. They are doing it for a reason. i wonder if any panasonic employee(technical) is a member of this forum. Someone working there could shed some light on it.
post #402 of 11163
I just spoke with my local Panasonic tech, and he is still trying to get a answer from the higher ups (has his weekly conference call in an hour) but he is confident that this is a software issue because I am not the only one that has this issue and has had it fixed with the board swap that causes the reset (it is a master reset, and combines a service menu reset with unplugging the set for 15 seconds) Hold the volume down on the TV and use that to get into the main service menu, not the remote, this reset is a complete reset and puts it back to right out of the box status, and he has replicated the black level fix on several G10 units with this method. (He only gave me partial instructions on how to do this, but confirmed that a normal SM reset doesn't do it, it is the same type of reset as replacing the A board) He is quite sure that a firmware update can fix this, but he says that the THX color fix is Panasonic's current focus and they haven't gotten to this issue yet. (they dance around the question every time he asks, so they obviously know something about it)

He will call me back if he finds anything out about this issue, and he emphasized the IF.
post #403 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I just spoke with my local Panasonic tech, and he is still trying to get a answer from the higher ups (has his weekly conference call in an hour) but he is confident that this is a software issue because I am not the only one that has this issue and has had it fixed with the board swap that causes the reset (it is a master reset, and combines a service menu reset with unplugging the set for 15 seconds) Hold the volume down on the TV and use that to get into the main service menu, not the remote, this reset is a complete reset and puts it back to right out of the box status, and he has replicated the black level fix on several G10 units with this method. (He only gave me partial instructions on how to do this, but confirmed that a normal SM reset doesn't do it, it is the same type of reset as replacing the A board) He is quite sure that a firmware update can fix this, but he says that the THX color fix is Panasonic's current focus and they haven't gotten to this issue yet. (they dance around the question every time he asks, so they obviously know something about it)

He will call me back if he finds anything out about this issue, and he emphasized the IF.

Excellent. Thanks for sharing. Mere fact that it is fixable will calm lot of nerves. As an aside.. "THX color fix is Panasonic's current focus...." Very very good news to hear
post #404 of 11163
The Tech did ask if I could test the C.A.T.S. feature to see if it does anything or not to the black levels.
(trying to isolate what is causing this increase)
post #405 of 11163
From the service manual ---

6 Troubleshooting Guide

---

6.1. Check of the IIC bus lines

6.1.1. How to access

* Self-check indication only:
** Produce TV reception screen, and while pressing [VOLUME ( - )] button on the main unit, press [OK] button on the remote control for more than 3 seconds.

* Self-check indication and forced to factory shipment setting:
** Produce TV reception screen, and while pressing [VOLUME ( - )] button on the main unit, press [MENU] button on the remote control for more than 3 seconds.

6.1.2. Exit
Disconnect the AC cord from wall outlet.

---
post #406 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

From the service manual ---

6 Troubleshooting Guide

---

6.1. Check of the IIC bus lines

6.1.1. How to access

* Self-check indication only:
** Produce TV reception screen, and while pressing [VOLUME ( - )] button on the main unit, press [OK] button on the remote control for more than 3 seconds.

* Self-check indication and forced to factory shipment setting:
** Produce TV reception screen, and while pressing [VOLUME ( - )] button on the main unit, press [MENU] button on the remote control for more than 3 seconds.

6.1.2. Exit
Disconnect the AC cord from wall outlet.

---

That sounds about right, he did stress to leave it unplugged for more than 15 seconds though. I might give this a try tonight to see if it works, if it does, I'll be doing this every-time I have an increase should I decide to keep the unit.
post #407 of 11163
I just tried the procedue posted by LarryInRI above, and I left it unplugged for more than 1 minute afterwards. It did not seem to change the black levels, but then again I do not know if my black levels are elevated (I think that they are, but this thread is making me crazy, so my thinking is suspect).
post #408 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by blaken134 View Post

I just tried the procedue posted by LarryInRI above, and I left it unplugged for more than 1 minute afterwards. It did not seem to change the black levels, but then again I do not know if my black levels are elevated (I think that they are, but this thread is making me crazy, so my thinking is suspect).

Not for nothing they say "ignorance is bliss"
post #409 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

Not for nothing they say "ignorance is bliss"

You are correct sir. I shouldn't have opened this particular pandora's box.
post #410 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by blaken134 View Post

You are correct sir. I shouldn't have opened this particular pandora's box.

Not speaking for everyone. But in my view it is not the most horrible deal breaker as some of them make it out to be. I always trust Panasonic in terms of QC and customer service from my experience and experience of my friends. They never disappointed me with any product. Be it is my CRT TV, or projector or blu ray player or dvd player or anything. Infact never once i had the need to call the service for any of my panasonic product.
post #411 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

That sounds about right, he did stress to leave it unplugged for more than 15 seconds though. I might give this a try tonight to see if it works, if it does, I'll be doing this every-time I have an increase should I decide to keep the unit.

The 15 seconds is only to let the electronics settle down -- specifically to allow enough time for power supply capacitors to discharge before re-applying voltage. This is something that should be done with all electronic devices not just Panasonic TVs.

Larry
post #412 of 11163
Can anyone confirm if the G15 has the same problem? I was leaning towards Panasonic, but not after this.
post #413 of 11163
new pics after the factory reset. same black levels.... and to mention one more time my a-board was replaced 2 weeks ago, so cant be the a-board causing this issue
LL
LL
post #414 of 11163
I'm not really sure what you guys are getting heated about. Yes, if the black levels do in fact increase this is a very unfortunate thing, but some of you are acting like the black levels should be pitch black in a dark room. Even the almighty Kuros glow with all the lights off and no content on the screen.
post #415 of 11163
^^^Many of us chose the S1 or G10 over the B550 or B650 due to the lower black level and nothing else...since if Sammy had Panny's black level it would be by far a better display.
If my S1 has its' black level double I will be raising hell.
Just my $0.02 cents.
post #416 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

I'm not really sure what you guys are getting heated about. Yes, if the black levels do in fact increase this is a very unfortunate thing, but some of you are acting like the black levels should be pitch black in a dark room. Even the almighty Kuros glow with all the lights off and no content on the screen.

I didn't buy my Panasonic G10 thinking it was a Kuro or even close to a Kuro, i bought it simply because it was the next best thing when it came to black level. Now my sets black levels are gray. I should have just gotten a Samsung even with their ****** customer service.
post #417 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

I'm not really sure what you guys are getting heated about. Yes, if the black levels do in fact increase this is a very unfortunate thing, but some of you are acting like the black levels should be pitch black in a dark room. Even the almighty Kuros glow with all the lights off and no content on the screen.

I don't know what to make of all of this. Part of me thinks people might be imagining things even though some of them feel certain that they are not. Part of me is worried that there might be something to it.

But you are right about the black levels. My G10 is new and the blacks were never truly black (heck, even my Sony CRT's blacks are not truly black) only a fairly dark shade of gray. In a dark room the blacks on my G10 always "glowed". Even when I compared my G10 to my Samsung B610 LCD the blacks in many scenarios were not really all that much better. The overall contrast on my G10, though, just makes the picture pop and in that regard it looks better than my LCD or my CRT.

So, like I said, I don't know what to make of all this. Did my set come with the blacks already elevated? Do some people actually have G10's whose blacks were truly black, or at least pretty close, and are now much lighter? Are a few sets defective, or does this affect all Panasonic plasmas?

So many unanswered questions, but the fact is we don't have many actual facts to go on. We have basically one guy who actually measured an increase in his black levels. But then there are guys like LarryInRI who measured a fairly static black level on his X1 over hundreds of hours. I doubt his black levels increased before 200 hrs, which is evidence at least that not all Panasonic plasmas have significant increases in their black levels.

I've decided, in any case, that I am keeping my G10. I like the picture it produces so much that I can't imagine it degrading enough to put it behind my Samsung LCD. The richness of the colors, the uniformity of the picture, the way it handles motion, the negligible input lag, and the perfect off-angle viewing are things that I love about it that make me unwilling to give it up even if the black levels raise a bit.
post #418 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by avshaman View Post

But you are right about the black levels. My G10 is new and the blacks were never truly black (heck, even my Sony CRT's blacks are not truly black) only a fairly dark shade of gray.t.

That will be the case for the most people. But I am not going to waste my time switching off the lights every day checking black levels . . Rightnow i am satisfied with my black levels.
post #419 of 11163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

From the service manual ---

6 Troubleshooting Guide

---

6.1. Check of the IIC bus lines

6.1.1. How to access

* Self-check indication only:
** Produce TV reception screen, and while pressing [VOLUME ( - )] button on the main unit, press [OK] button on the remote control for more than 3 seconds.

* Self-check indication and forced to factory shipment setting:
** Produce TV reception screen, and while pressing [VOLUME ( - )] button on the main unit, press [MENU] button on the remote control for more than 3 seconds.

6.1.2. Exit
Disconnect the AC cord from wall outlet.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

That sounds about right, he did stress to leave it unplugged for more than 15 seconds though. I might give this a try tonight to see if it works, if it does, I'll be doing this every-time I have an increase should I decide to keep the unit.

This reset method was posted by Battousai way back in post #11 on page 1. It did nothing for me, a few of inflated screen grabs I've posted were taken after several attempts at this resets. Careful of default maxed out contrast values playing with your perception.
post #420 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

No only would the average viewer not care, it would pretty much be impossible for them to even notice it. Given the garbage AR filters on these, as little as 5 or 10 Lux of ambient light is going to completely nullify this effect. I don't expect Panasonic is ever going to address this issue, not because of the number of complaints, but because they have a reason for doing it (if it is in fact on purpose). The odds of an oversight like this going on for 3 or 4+ model years has to be incredibly small. Only time I could see it going away is if they ever achieve honest to goodness extreme contrast, as it would likely require an over haul of their base technologies that would be necessitating a change like this.

I can't think of a logical reason as to why Panasonic would purposely do this though. And this has gone on for years, but this issue hasn't been made this public before. I think if enough people contact Panasonic linking to this thread which will continue to grow, they may actually do something about it.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Plasma Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight?