Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 148

What part don't you get?

I hit the power button. The tv turns off the input, and displays a blank screen: a "black" screen. This stays like that for 6-7 seconds, and then the panel shuts off.

I had 60u that I gave to my wife's parents this year (currently own a 58" S1 and 50" X1 that still look great). I think that went down to maybe .03 at the most out of the box and I watched it for 3 years and loved the picture. I'm not saying its okay that Panasonic sold a product that changed from the initial specs but I find it funny that people with sets that only go down to .02 or whatever now are acting like the TV is unwatchable. The dramatic rise is obviously out of the norm and I hope people get them fixed but that still isn't a terrible reading. It looks like most of the 12G and to a lesser extent the 13G will behave like this: An initial reading of maybe .008 then up to .012 then hopefully back down as the set ages. If this is what happens to my TV I won't care a bit and probably won't notice. I have more important things to worry about. This is probably what Panasonic was banking on but because a few sets acted erratically they got called out.

Another issue is measuring a plasma side by side with an LCD isn't useful imho. LCD's by nature are oversaturated, bright and crush blacks yet people are drawn to them like moths are to exterior lighting. I mention this because it seems in addition to using meters people keep bringing up the comparison to a cheap LCD they have.

Any connection between the black level and the shut-off time.

These TVs have been on the market for eleven months now and you are the first to mention anything resembling a link or, for that matter, even to mention the time it takes for the set to turn off.


Have you noticed that the days are getting longer? Could there be a connection with the black level? I kid you. Please don't get angry.

Larry

Mustang, you have any pictures of your set in action and not of a blank input screen? I'm curious have it looks after the rise. I have the same TV as you.

I'm not angry We're all in this together. Just something I noticed.

i get it!

^ lol. i liked that one too

I'd really like to buy one of Panasonic's camcorders, the AG-HMC40. It's getting pretty decent reviews, and the price point is at a sweet spot in the pro-sumer market.

But after getting burned on a $1,500 54" lemon, the wallet is closed to further Panasonic purchases, and that includes even their cheap microwaves.

If they continue to lose cross-sell and up-sell opportunities due to their failure to address the rising black levels issue, then maybe Panasonic will pay attention.

Whats it gonna be next? Maybe the black levels will climb so high the display will not be able to be powered off anymore, and will remain in a permanent state of "always on"!!!!!!

Sorry, I could not resist

Yeah I know you're kidding and poking fun at all of us who are looking for defects now but the truth is that the infinite black features is useless, its a dumb gimmick which is why no one has payed attention before. The real issue is that blacks levels are rising and Panasonic is staying hush on the matter so we are left to try and figure things out on our own and this is the result.

Further issues are that we don't know how bad the picture will degrade to. While some people may find the picture acceptable and still excellent, others will find it looks horrible. We don't know in what camp each of us will fall in so that leads to panic as well.

Every morning I come to this thread to read all the new comments and I think to myself, this thread could not possibly degrade any further. Then everyday I am proven wrong.

If Panasonic ever took this thread seriously, I am sure they no longer are.

Panasonic (management) never had any intention of taking this or any other thread seriously ... about this issue, or any other.

They fixed the THX issue because of THX licensing standards which they were misrepresenting with their faulty color issues.

Time to wake up.

i think owners of tvs affected , need to start trying to figure out what (if anything) they can do to get this problem fixed , have a brainstorming session , on here , see if anyone can come up with an idea or two , that might get panasonic to think again , because this thread is starting to go around and around in circles , it will probably fizzle out in a few weeks , leaving many people frustrated , and leaving panasonic happy that their containment , damage limitation etc , has worked ,
ideas are needed , theres enough proof , and enough complaints , how about a linked thread , that will exist soley for people to put forward their ideas on how to get this story more exposure , and how to pressurise panasonic , then , the embedded agents of panasonic , that are obviously all over this thread , wont be able to frustrate and hinder people .....

Turrican4D,

Despite the issues I'm still considering the 50U10E as they are heavily discounted here in Istanbul. Do you have any friends or have you heard of anybody who's black levels have risen higher than your S10E over a period of 1000 hours ?

My other options are 46'' Sony or Samsung 200hz LCDs and the levels you have posted are about the same level as those LCDs (assuming the Samsung auto-dimming is turned off) so if the black levels don't get worse than 0.06 cd/m2 on these euro models I would be saving a lot of money with the U10E.

This is what I have said more or less. We need the Cnet guy to look at one of these bad displays somehow? Surely CNET can afford a plane ticket for him to go & see one someplace?

Cnet has started running long term tests on two panels. Up until very recently, when Panasonic finally came clean to them, none of the professional review sites had any idea that Panasonic had programmed the sets to degrade the black levels automatically.

Apparently, some guy took a baseball bat to a number of flat panels in a Walmart. Probably a Panasonic 12G owner

Thanks. Yes I realize that but that could take quite a while coupled with the small number of people who can confirm the problem it could prove inconclusive I believe. As bad as this issue may possibly be it has been rather elusive in it's diagnosis & I've read this whole thread along the way. We don't even know if CNET is measuring anything or if they are just checking the tv's visually over time? Have they said how they are going to do this?

Lather.
Rinse.
Repeat.

Guys - as you post, do remember that there have been several comments from Panasonic folks that they are reading this thread as part of their monitoring of the issue. Yeah, they appear to have said they are washing their hands of the problem, but still - if I was a Panasonic rep reading this, the last couple of weeks of postings would have made me conclude that the thread was mostly a bunch of internet idiots calling each other names and having no real problems. The thread didn't start out that way, but it sure seems to be going in that direction.

So, while I assume this will just result in more name calling, could we please try to keep this thread focused on as much data and observations backed up by some kind evidence as possible?

Thanks

They have not spelled out how they are going to measure them, as far as I am aware of off. I notice that HDguru posted that he is going to be working on it, in conjunction with Dave from Cnet.

Also; D-Nice said that he plans to pick up a brand new S1 and S2, and run up the hours on them, while tracking the performance levels on them, from when they are brand new.

The big problem with having someone like Cnet examine a set, that is exhibiting black level problems, after having been run for a thousand hours or more, is that they would have nothing to compare it with, since they would not have metered the MLL when brand new. See what I mean. How would they be able to objectively determine what the MLL was at the outset on the set.

I think we will just have to let them take the time to measure an unused set, and then measure the MLL every hundred hours.

That's the problem...the content sucks! When contrast ratios drop from over 4000:1 to less than 2000:1 it is very noticeable in the content let alone the horrible IR. Shadow detail which was the best is now almost non existent which makes dark content suck! Some people say that bright scenes still look great but I disagree. Sure they are bright and colorful but there is no depth, bright or dark content all looks flat to me. It's funny how people are now saying that in a well lit room the TV looks good vs. a dark room. When these TV's were first released/reviewed it was the other way around...the blacks were greyer in a lit room and the best blacks were obtained in a dark room. Some of you should keep in mind that anyone who bought one of the larger or higher end models when they were released paid a sh!t load more than people who bought recently. When I see someone who bought a 42-inch X1 on black Friday say they can live with the rising black levels....

More people should do this and maybe Panasonic will get the hint.
http://gizmodo.com/5470011/man-tries...tvs-in-walmart

Thanks for that vicarious moment.

Once the '10 models come out, it's time to put that G10 on Craigslist. Maybe I can fetch $500 for the 42". When I first bought this TV I thought I wouldn't be able to even notice the problem - but now not only I notice it - it practically torments me. I have a case of OCD so this certainly doesn't help.

Why can't we push Panasonic to tell us what the MLL should be. This is an industry-standard measurement. If we can have figures for what the MLL is after 1000+ hrs / approx 6 months and then say 2000+hrs or 1 year and also the ANSI contrast ratio, then that would most likely (hopefully) be the stabilized MLL value. My point is - if the set is dropping the MLL in such a short time, the emphasis should not ONLY be on how fast it dropped. What matters to most people is how the set is going to look after a year. Not how it looked in the first 6 months. IMO, we should not worry too much about the MLL at the onset.

All professional reviews should publish what the MLL and contrast ratio will be at a stabilized value.

That would be great. But I wouldn't hold my breath that this actually occurs in the long run... D-Nice says a lot of things, but is a very very busy person. We're still waiting for the SM adjustments for the G, V, and S models (Yes, I know D-Nice didn't post them because some people were impolite, this is a light teasing).

because then they could be pinned down even further for false advertising. The more vague they publish something, the easier it is for them to meet that criteria. Especially in this case where the panel changes over time. Not to mention there is probably some level of panel/hardware variation during production.

That's because I bet in reality 95%+ of people wouldn't have noticed if they hadn't heard about this thread or in the articles...the ugly hawthorne effect kicks in and we start seeing things because we're looking for them. Not saying that the black levels don't decrease in extreme ways for some people, just saying I think most people wouldn't have cared or ever noticed. Also, remember satisfied people don't hang out in forums discussing perfectly working products, they normally come to complain.

Me, I am just insanely curious and worried now this will occur on my set as dramatically as some posters are saying...

And to you Panasonic, (if you are following this), we say this :
We are your best advertisers. Not Avatar-like ads. Consumer reviews are always taken into account by most buyers. Many of us have been on the fence with 2 models and it was small issues that made us choose Panasonic. One of those was how Panasonic treated its customers when a problem arose. Other points were - Would I be happy to showoff my set to LCD friends or would I be embarrassed that cheaper sets were performing as well or better. Many sales are generated when we tell others about your sets. We have spent considerable time posting pictures and even advising customers that you can further improve a Panasonic to your full satisfaction. Go ahead and buy it. Now we can no longer say the same.

Consider the positive effect it would have if you fixed the issue. We would continue to advertise for you. And we would also make sure that CNET and others mention how ably Panasonic has handled the problem.

Why can't we let this be a win-win for the long term Panasonic ?

If you think these are a few sets that are affected, then handle it via Concierge. But in a more appropriate manner. Have someone measure the MLL and notice that it and the contrast ratio are both below what would be acceptable to a NEW consumer shopping with other competition in the market. Haven't you'll just spent BILLIONS of dollars on your PLASMA plant ??