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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 160

post #4771 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch View Post

I plugged in the network cable a while back, and it asked if I wanted to download, so i chose yes. i did not notice any difference after it installed.

Ok thanks for the reply My theory is if it isnt broke dont fix it lol
post #4772 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by nascar dog View Post

open the menu
go into setup
scroll down until you see about and press ok
select version and press ok
the first line is the firmware version and eprom version mixed into one.

What does yours say?


tv 0180 - 1420
post #4773 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by tralala View Post

Hi,

Is there anybody here who can get a hold off the service manual or schematics of these tv's?
My thought is, that it might be very hard to hack the firmware to reduce the minimum drive level. But, it might be a lot easier to modify the electronics.
I'm an expert in electronics and I'm quite sure that I can cook something up if I have the schematics.
It should enable you to reduce the minimal drive level until the point that pixels start to misfire. When you reach that point, increase a bit again. When the tv ages (which depends very much on the content you watch and not the hours on) and misfires happen again, you can increase this level again.
Could be that the overall drive level will need to be decreased, resulting in lower brightness, but that can be compensated by increasing the contrast/brightness. More than enough headroom anyway.

This would be really interesting...let me know if you make any headway.
post #4774 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by tralala View Post

Hi,

Is there anybody here who can get a hold off the service manual or schematics of these tv's?
My thought is, that it might be very hard to hack the firmware to reduce the minimum drive level. But, it might be a lot easier to modify the electronics.
I'm an expert in electronics and I'm quite sure that I can cook something up if I have the schematics.
It should enable you to reduce the minimal drive level until the point that pixels start to misfire. When you reach that point, increase a bit again. When the tv ages (which depends very much on the content you watch and not the hours on) and misfires happen again, you can increase this level again.
Could be that the overall drive level will need to be decreased, resulting in lower brightness, but that can be compensated by increasing the contrast/brightness. More than enough headroom anyway.

This is not a good idea if your tv is still under warranty and is working fine.
I would only resort to this if the black level becomes unacceptable and the warranty will not cover the repair.

However, somebody posted in the S1 thread that he bought a service manual.
post #4775 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

It would be way easier to get the schematics and JTAG into the unit vs trying to circumvent the software which will continue to change the drives the entire life of the set. You'd have to be constantly updating your HW tweak if you look at the voltage ramps it changes quite a bit after 600 hours over the next 1000 hours.

Reverse engineering the firmware might not be as bad as you think. And is really the better solution. It's just a slow process... Way easier if you can get the white papers on it vs reverse engineering Or if someone would leak a bit of info.

If I had a Panasonic set I'd check this out with you guys, but I don't

Be interesting to see what they push over the internet for the auto-updates. Probably not useful at all for the drives but it'd be interesting to disassemble.


A Geman engineer and a Brazilian engineer have been attempting this. They made some progress and posted it here earlier in this thread. I assume from a lack of progress reports that they have hit a wall.

Larry
post #4776 of 11163
Where in the User Guide or on the box does it say: (I'm quoting Panasonic's statement)

"electronic display characteristics change over time. Our sophisticated Viera displays are designed to automatically adjust over time, too, to optimize their performance and reliability.."

Now as a consumer, if I had known about it I would have never bought Panasonic's plasma.

I have 600 hours on my 54V10 and while watching Underworld in complete dark room the picture looked washed out as if the lights were on.

Agreed that all electronics characteristics deteriorate over time, but 600+ hours and the BEST TV OF 2009 starts to perform like an LCD TV of 2006?

Oh by the way, my infinite black level works, and it's a useless feature.
post #4777 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

A Geman engineer and a Brazilian engineer have been attempting this. They made some progress and posted it here earlier in this thread. I assume from a lack of progress reports that they have hit a wall.

Larry

Ya, I'd kind of expect that. I must have overlooked their posts in my search. I haven't read all of the thread. I would expect it to take a good part of a year to do this. It's a lot of tedious work... Unless they had some inside information or do this type of work for a living it's slow going.

Plus they might have to write their own JTAG software plus possibly a disassembler depending on the processor being used if they don't have all of the tools they need.

I'll search back again.
post #4778 of 11163
I tested a few tv's after calibrating my 54G10. By the way, the G10 firmware fixed THX mode is near perfect after Grayscale cal and knocking the color down 5 pts.

With i1-lt:

54G10 1250 hrs.: .018 ft-L
px50u approx. 4000 hrs (4yo): .029 ft-L
Panny 32lx85 LCD (2008 720p model backlight at 50): .090 ft-L
post #4779 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by tralala View Post

Hi,

Is there anybody here who can get a hold off the service manual or schematics of these tv's?
My thought is, that it might be very hard to hack the firmware to reduce the minimum drive level. But, it might be a lot easier to modify the electronics.
I'm an expert in electronics and I'm quite sure that I can cook something up if I have the schematics.
It should enable you to reduce the minimal drive level until the point that pixels start to misfire. When you reach that point, increase a bit again. When the tv ages (which depends very much on the content you watch and not the hours on) and misfires happen again, you can increase this level again.
Could be that the overall drive level will need to be decreased, resulting in lower brightness, but that can be compensated by increasing the contrast/brightness. More than enough headroom anyway.

This sounds really risky, but adventurous. How do you know that bringing a phosphor to mis-fire level doesn't permanently damage the phosphor? And how does one visually determine when a phosphor is mis-firing, considering there are 2,073,600 phosphors on-screen?
post #4780 of 11163
Why. Why must Panasonic keep saying that the rising blacks are normal? The new 2010 sets look to be the best overall HDTVs ever released and yet they have built them to get worse over time, what is the point of adding all these improvements if they only last for a month or two?

I would have bought a 2010 Panasonic in a heartbeat, but until they fix the rising blacks and it is proven that they are indeed gone, I will never buy nor recommend a Panasonic to anyone, which is a shame, because they really are the best HDTVs available today, even if they only maintain that status for a few weeks. Panasonic is setting themselves up for a fall, and it isn't going to be pretty when this truly hits the fan.
post #4781 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Why. Why must Panasonic keep saying that the rising blacks are normal? The new 2010 sets look to be the best overall HDTVs ever released and yet they have built them to get worse over time, what is the point of adding all these improvements if they only last for a month or two?

I would have bought a 2010 Panasonic in a heartbeat, but until they fix the rising blacks and it is proven that they are indeed gone, I will never buy nor recommend a Panasonic to anyone, which is a shame, because they really are the best HDTVs available today, even if they only maintain that status for a few weeks. Panasonic is setting themselves up for a fall, and it isn't going to be pretty when this truly hits the fan.

If Panasonic notices a drop in sales of HDTVs in Q1 2010 compared to Q1 2009 then they'll realize why. And then who knows, they might do something to reassure new customers.

But I'm doubtful they'll even see a dent in sales because this rising black level issue is only a concern to us videophiles on AVS. The majority of consumers run their sets in VIVID mode with COOL color temp after bringing it home. Just the thought of that makes me shudder...
post #4782 of 11163
anyone have a statement from panasonic saying exactly what infinite black does? i couldnt find one in my manual
post #4783 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Why. Why must Panasonic keep saying that the rising blacks are normal?

Rising blacks are indeed normal for plasmas... but usually they are not appearant to the human eye.

Voltages were increased improperly for older smaller sets like 50's.

I'd like to know if the extreme voltages fried the phospors and/or dropped the expected life of the plasma from 100,000 hours to 40,000 hrs or whatever.
post #4784 of 11163
Quote:


Voltages were increased improperly for older smaller sets like 50's.

we are nowhere close to concluding that it only affects the smaller sets. remember that the 58/65 models start lower, so even if they double their MLL they will still be about in the same range as the smaller sets.

So far, the 58/65 sets in the database seem to measure around 0.005-0.006 early on, and around 0.008-0.012 after a few hundred hours -- which is where the smaller models usually START. So it's not necessarily true that the 58/65 models do not have rising blacks, it just might be that (because they start lower) they don't reach such an objectionable level after rising.

Again.... we really just need more DATA...
post #4785 of 11163
Hey Audio,

My IB works but goes away after about 5-10 secs...i dont know if thats normal or not but thats the first time I ever put it in vivid mode with no input. Also for all those people that hate my quotes due to "no proof" I just purchased a light meter..when I get it i repost it to bdemers. I will probably have to PM someone as I have never done it before.
post #4786 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

we are nowhere close to concluding that it only affects the smaller sets. remember that the 58/65 models start lower, so even if they double their MLL they will still be about in the same range as the smaller sets.

So far, the 58/65 sets in the database seem to measure around 0.005-0.006 early on, and around 0.008-0.012 after a few hundred hours -- which is where the smaller models usually START. So it's not necessarily true that the 58/65 models do not have rising blacks, it just might be that (because they start lower) they don't reach such an objectionable level after rising.

Again.... we really just need more DATA...

+1 on all three paragraphs. For a while, I thought I was the only one here thinking like that.
post #4787 of 11163
have you taken any recent measurements? AFAIK we have one data point for your 65" S1, 0.005 ft-L when it was brand-new. I imagine you have at least a couple hundred hours on it now?
post #4788 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

Hey Audio,

My IB works but goes away after about 5-10 secs...i dont know if thats normal or not but thats the first time I ever put it in vivid mode with no input. Also for all those people that hate my quotes due to "no proof" I just purchased a light meter..when I get it i repost it to bdemers. I will probably have to PM someone as I have never done it before.

Actually, it's the admitted lying ( and thinking it's normal). I think you will post to make your point, not help with the black level issue.
post #4789 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

have you taken any recent measurements? AFAIK we have one data point for your 65" S1, 0.005 ft-L when it was brand-new. I imagine you have at least a couple hundred hours on it now?

I got it just couple weeks ago and haven't put much time on it yet. Less than 30 hrs probably as I'm not running the slides this time. But I do plan to take a quick grayscale and mll reading this weekend to see if there's any drift.

OT:
To my eyes, the colors of my calibrated 65s1 are not as good as 54s1 with 400 hrs. Color deltaEs are slightly higher too. Maybe it just needs some aging like the 54s1.
post #4790 of 11163
Hey Batpig,

question for you.. is it stated when the first voltage adjustment is suppose to happen. I remember seeing something that it happens at 600 hours. is that correct?

sounds good gannon, i wont measure..thanks for your helpful input on this thread.
post #4791 of 11163
What's all this stuff I'm hearing about black levels doubling or tripling after 500 hours or so of use? Is this real? So did I just make a really big mistake buying the TC58s1? I have about 200 hours on it.
post #4792 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

Hey Batpig,

question for you.. is it stated when the first voltage adjustment is suppose to happen. I remember seeing something that it happens at 600 hours. is that correct?

sounds good gannon, i wont measure..thanks for your helpful input on this thread.

Thank you At this point, coming from you, a measurement would have no meaning.
post #4793 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

Hey Batpig,

question for you.. is it stated when the first voltage adjustment is suppose to happen. I remember seeing something that it happens at 600 hours. is that correct?

At first we thought that it happened at 300 hours, but too many people had their blacks rise well before that point, the general consensus on here was that it happened at 150 hours after Panasonic revealed that all units have the blacks rise over time. (the black jump is basically a glitched voltage adjustment, any time one of these happens it could glitch it seems, hence why the hours varried so much in the early days of this topic)

It also explains why everyone says that plasma sets suddenly look better around the 150 hour mark.
post #4794 of 11163
I have no clue, I'm no expert I just like spreadsheets
post #4795 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

At first we thought that it happened at 300 hours, but too many people had their blacks rise well before that point, the general consensus on here was that it happened at 150 hours after Panasonic revealed that all units have the blacks rise over time. (the black jump is basically a glitched voltage adjustment, any time one of these happens it could glitch it seems, hence why the hours varried so much in the early days of this topic)

It also explains why everyone says that plasma sets suddenly look better around the 150 hour mark.

the reason is that if panasonic has specified hours on when it happens and lets say your set happened before that, would that not be a defect? I forget who it was, but I remember seeing something way back that stated 600 hours. Someone posted an actual document.
post #4796 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by gannongolfer View Post

Thank you At this point, coming from you, a measurement would have no meaning.

a measurement would have no meaning? you really need to stop.. i guess sending in all my charts would just be lies.. think before you type..
post #4797 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

the reason is that if panasonic has specified hours on when it happens and lets say your set happened before that, would that not be a defect? I forget who it was, but I remember seeing something way back that stated 600 hours. Someone posted an actual document.

The document was a patent, I think it's linked in Orta's first post now.

The patent describes exactly why the voltage should be increased to compensate for aging plasma cells. But keep in mind, the patent uses generic diagrams for illustrative purposes. It's unlikely that Panasonic would include their actual voltages and hours in a patent. (they didn't patent the values, they patented the concept)

Based on the chart data (in my sig) the panels that got measured before 500 hours mostly exhibited a rise in black level. There's still no concrete answer on when it happens.


BTW: Looking forward to your measurements... Thanks for getting a meter.
post #4798 of 11163
Previously had the problem with a 50g15, got it exchange by panny for rising black level for a 54v10 (paid a little extra). Everything was fine until this week..... Black is gray now..... **** man ! Never, never i will buy their product !!!
post #4799 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Why. Why must Panasonic keep saying that the rising blacks are normal? The new 2010 sets look to be the best overall HDTVs ever released and yet they have built them to get worse over time, what is the point of adding all these improvements if they only last for a month or two?

I think the exact timing of the black level increase is everything -- so far as the end user probably cares.

For the sake of example, suppose the black level (in 2010 models) holds basically steady for the first (say) 85,000 hours ... what difference then does it make if in the 12th or 15th year of use the black level jumps up ridiculously?

Yet even in this case Panny cannot strictly say the black levels will "never" go up, just b/c the sets are rated to 100,000 hours use. So they must keep saying that "rising blacks are normal". Notwithstanding this (the example shows) is consistent with Panny having effectively solved the rising black problem for '10 -- so far as anyone (even videophiles) will care.
post #4800 of 11163
They only have to say that it is normal if it happens in the first year of ownership (when it would be covered by the warranty) if it only happened after that then there would be no need to say anything. They haven't "solved" anything, the blacks still rise, which is a defect, plain and simple, it will just be a more gradual rise. (the currents sets, even when working correctly, the black rise is noticable, there is a visible increase that people can and have seen, they are simply making it harder to notice, they aren't fixing or removing it, they are just hiding it better.)
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