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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 167

post #4981 of 10800
2/22/10 at 11:09am
"Just as an example, I was up in San Francisco visiting some friends. He owns a 50X1. He loves it. He is not a "videophile" and just thinks his TV is awesome. I measured his set, checked hours -- 1600 hrs, 0.016 MLL. Right in line with the trend."

Mr. Pig or should I call you Bat. Can you explain what you mean by this. .016 on a 50X1 would seem to indicate very little change. I believe Larry measured his at .24 which is a big jump. Wouldn't you say there was little or no increase with a .016 MLL on an X1 which starts about that high any way?
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post #4982 of 10800
2/22/10 at 11:09am
Has anyone measured a 12G panel that does NOT show the rise? If there are I haven't seen them...there are those who say that their sets don't LOOK like they have risen, but I have yet to see measurements (aside from those few who measure while their sets are still <100 hours).

My set has near 300 hours on it, and I couldn't say if I have the rise or not...probably not. But I know there are others here who are concerned.
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post #4983 of 10800
2/22/10 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabigwaxy View Post

Mr. Pig or should I call you Bat. Can you explain what you mean by this. .016 on a 50X1 would seem to indicate very little change. I believe Larry measured his at .24 which is a big jump. Wouldn't you say there was little or no increase with a .016 MLL on an X1 which starts about that high any way?

hmmm, I was under the impression that the 50" models (including X1) should be down around 0.008-0.012 at start. I could be wrong.

I also got a measurement of 0.020 on my friend's panel later on that evening, after some tweaking and stuff, but there was some IR from the white window patterns and the contrast was up a bit, so I just took the lower of the two measurements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonesdad View Post

Has anyone measured a 12G panel that does NOT show the rise? If there are I haven't seen them...there are those who say that their sets don't LOOK like they have risen, but I have yet to see measurements (aside from those few who measure while their sets are still <100 hours).

not that I have seen, except for the 58/65 models (for which we really need more, and longer-term, data). But, the data is still very, very sparse. I keep hoping more people will contribute, we need more data especially from people who don't think they have problems!
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post #4984 of 10800
2/22/10 at 11:33am
Not sure if it was this thread, or the stickied official G10 thread, but someone posted an Amazon.com link to an Eye-One LT meter for $126. I think it may have been LarryInRI.

Can someone please re-post the link? I searched Amazon but I am only finding it for $149.89 now. Really hope I didnt wait too long and now the price jumped up.
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post #4985 of 10800
2/22/10 at 11:36am
Larry's words: "My 12G 50X1 has varied from 0.016 to 0.017 to 0.019 ftL for readings taken at about 200, 900, and 1200 hours respectively. The black level readings are probably within the expected inherent range considering test condition variations."

This was before it made its "final?" jump to .024.
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post #4986 of 10800
2/22/10 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

Not sure if it was this thread, or the stickied official G10 thread, but someone posted an Amazon.com link to an Eye-One LT meter for $126. I think it may have been LarryInRI.

Can someone please re-post the link? I searched Amazon but I am only finding it for $149.89 now. Really hope I didnt wait too long and now the price jumped up.

Look on www.adorama.com. I just ordered mine from there and should be here middle of the week. $126 and free shipping.
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post #4987 of 10800
2/22/10 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

Not sure if it was this thread, or the stickied official G10 thread, but someone posted an Amazon.com link to an Eye-One LT meter for $126. I think it may have been LarryInRI.

Can someone please re-post the link? I searched Amazon but I am only finding it for $149.89 now. Really hope I didnt wait too long and now the price jumped up.

It was Adorama: http://www.adorama.com/GHEODLT.html

Jackal, looks like we posted at the same time.
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post #4988 of 10800
2/22/10 at 11:46am
No, I beat you by 1 minute.
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post #4989 of 10800
2/22/10 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

I agree; I was thinking the same thing when I was typing my other response.

All statistics aside... Without some insider information I can't comprehend Panasonic's response thus far.

Panasonic has already made a statement...

1. The 2009's plasmas have an issue the consumers see as a flaw that we Panasonic consider within normal working specifications
2. We're not going to fix it if you experience it

Nope, I wouldn't be buying A 2009 panel either. I mean who would in their right mind knowing this information?

I see it as Russian roulette with your $$ on a 2009 Panasonic plasma TV that works correctly.

What's really is annoying me from a Q&A perspective is if this was "normal" expected behavior ALL of the 2009 Plasma sets would be experiencing it in a similar fashion. They're not.


I agree with you 100% on both your posts especially the very small percentages you've mentioned and unfortunately i've been caught up in this Black level rise issues on this Forum and it totally took the joy and excitement out of my new purchase of this 65v10 and even though the pq is amazing I cant enjoy it anymore wondering if im going to be part of that very small percent with the black level rise issue . So i've decided to trade it back in while I still could and pick up one of the last Pioneer kuro's. I just hope I didnt jump from the frying pan to the fire, I guess time will tell once I receive it . Thanks for sharing your thoughts as we seem to share the same feelings about this black level issue but unfortunately like I said I got caught up with all this black level rise issues here on AVS and its got the best of me so my dream display must go
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post #4990 of 10800
2/22/10 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

No, I beat you by 1 minute.

But he linked directly to the item page.

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I will order within the week and plan on posting my results (46G10 with 1300 hrs).
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post #4991 of 10800
2/22/10 at 1:21pm
[/quote]not that I have seen, except for the 58/65 models (for which we really need more, and longer-term, data). But, the data is still very, very sparse. I keep hoping more people will contribute, we need more data especially from people who don't think they have problems![/quote]

Well, at least so far then, everyone who has measured has seen rising blacks. A question might be then, are those that have measured seeing the rising blacks and confirming them with measurements? Seems like that's what I've heard so far. It would be helpful to find folks that haven't observed anything take measurements, or have measurements done for them. With the limited data we have so far, one might assume that ALL of the sets will suffer from rising blacks (perhaps with the exception of the 58" and 60" models)

I'll ask a calibrator to do some measurements for me now, then after 500 hours, as I don't have a light meter and don't intend to buy one. How much might a calibrator charge just to do a measurement like this?
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post #4992 of 10800
2/22/10 at 1:35pm
Honestly, it would be great if anybody with a G10 could post their data even with a guestimation of hours (or at least a purchase time period). People may not have their early measurements, but just getting an idea of people's black levels nearly a year later would be a good way to acquire more data.

Great work so far Batpig!
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post #4993 of 10800
2/22/10 at 1:53pm
My friend bought 50c10 which has same panel as 50x1. Out of the box I constantly measured 0.010 fL. Now he has about 200 hours on his set. I will be measuring his tv after 500 and 1000 hours unless he sees any change before that.
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post #4994 of 10800
2/22/10 at 1:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFactor View Post

I agree with you 100% on both your posts especially the very small percentages you've mentioned and unfortunately i've been caught up in this Black level rise issues on this Forum and it totally took the joy and excitement out of my new purchase of this 65v10 and even though the pq is amazing I cant enjoy it anymore wondering if im going to be part of that very small percent with the black level rise issue . So i've decided to trade it back in while I still could and pick up one of the last Pioneer kuro's. I just hope I didnt jump from the frying pan to the fire, I guess time will tell once I receive it . Thanks for sharing your thoughts as we seem to share the same feelings about this black level issue but unfortunately like I said I got caught up with all this black level rise issues here on AVS and its got the best of me so my dream display must go

I assume you will be paying a premium price, so therefore I hopr you don't receive a buzzer. As you said yourself no plasma is perfect or T.V for that matter.

Anyway, I wish you well on the purchase of your new Kuro. I'm Holding out for the 2010 Panny V-series myself. There has been some good talk about them so far, but I guess we'll have to wait and see...
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post #4995 of 10800
2/22/10 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

I assume you will be paying a premium price, so therefore I hopr you don't receive a buzzer. As you said yourself no plasma is perfect or T.V for that matter.

Anyway, I wish you well on the purchase of your new Kuro. I'm Holding out for the 2010 Panny V-series myself. There has been some good talk about them so far, but I guess we'll have to wait and see...

Also watch out for Kuro "dirty screen effect" caused by the bonded filter.
I returned a PRO-111FD becasue of the very obvious DSE.

I sure hope the 2010 V and G series don't have this DSE problem.
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post #4996 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunaticpuma View Post

Honestly, it would be great if anybody with a G10 could post their data even with a guestimation of hours (or at least a purchase time period).

FYI - here is the data I have for just G10/15 models:

Code:
User / Panel / Meter            Hours    MLL (ft-L) 
HT MAG 42G10 REVIEW             XX       0.014
HT MAG 46G10 REVIEW             XX       0.009
 
smeg36 50G10 Spyder 2           0        0.009 
anthrojohn 42G15 i1 D2/LT       75       0.011 
anthrojohn 42G15 i1 D2/LT       135      0.011 
anthrojohn 42G15 i1 D2/LT       146      0.023 
erupted 42G10 i1 D2/LT          150      0.015 
Orta 50G10 i1 D2/LT             200      0.008 
smeg36 50G10 Spyder 2           250      0.015 
Orta 50G10 i1 D2/LT             400      0.018 
slosvt 50G10 i1Pro              700      0.018 
slosvt 50G10 i1Pro              999      0.018 
Orta 50G10 i1 D2/LT             1000     0.019 
slosvt 50G10 i1Pro              1020     0.030 
gregmp 54G10 i1 D2/LT           1200     0.018 
gregmp 54G10 i1 D2/LT           1400     0.018 
Smoof15 50G15 i1 D2/LT          1587     0.021
so it appears (from this LIMITED data) they will start off in the 0.008-0.012 range (depending on size??) before eventually ending up in the 0.015-0.020 range.
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post #4997 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

this amused me -- there is no "opinion" when you are "mathematically speaking" that is the point of statistics, to objectively judge the significance of the data.

lol, sure there is. Numbers can be pushed any way you want to represent them.

So "in my opinion... using my math" is what I was saying.

Statistical math is not ethical; it's only representative of how you choose present the data to the *target* audience.



Surely your aware that most of the people in this thread have the issue. Your results could easily get weighted in this direction without a large unbiased sample set.

IMO without a build date & serial # the statistics beyond this point don't tell you much. I mean what's it going to tell you? We know there's an issue, without knowing if it's not specific to a series or build date I don't know who would buy a 2009 Panasonic panel. Like I said before it's like Russian Roulette with your $$ on a 2009 panel hoping to get a good one at this point.

From my reading (and your collected data thus far) it seems to be pretty established that just about every 2009 model has had it happen. Granted the larger panels seemed to be less effected; they are not immune to the issue. And of course they're absent from the current graphs.
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post #4998 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:34pm
Quote:


lol, sure there is. Numbers can be pushed any way you want to represent them.

So "in my opinion... using my math" is what I was saying.

I realize that but I thought it was amusing anyway

There are certain things which are not a matter of opinion, however -- one of which being the size of the sample required to establish a specific confidence level.

Quote:


Surely your aware that most of the people in this thread have the issue. Your results could easily get weighted in this direction without a large unbiased sample set.

obviously I am aware!! did I not say above:

"The key is to get a representative sample. Obviously, we have some selection bias going on here.... I keep hoping more people will contribute, we need more data especially from people who don't think they have problems!"

I have been one of the people leading the charge for more data, and less wild speculation / hysteria. So I don't really disagree with you in principle, more just picking nits with the assumptions about necessary sample size.

Quote:


IMO without a build date & serial # the statistics beyond this point don't tell you much.

I think that is only true if you presume that there is some difference among different build dates / production runs. I'm not sure we have any reason to believe that. If you assume that they are all going to exhibit similar behavior, the group trends can still be valuable in establishing the broad scope of the problem and consistency across a multitude of sets.

Plus, in practical terms, it's simply more effort for people to look up their build date especially if your TV is wall-mounted.
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post #4999 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:38pm
And they're off! Here's my most interesting "opinion"...

bla, bla, bla, bla, bla
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post #5000 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:38pm
Sorry if this has been discussed already, but is there any data for the 58/65" plasmas? I'd like to know if they experience as much of an increase, since they start out lower than the smaller models.
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post #5001 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:42pm
Just wanted to report that I was watching some 4:3 aspect material with the grey side bars and IMHO Panasonic has the best greys of any plasma currently available.

I think I need some help because I've been having really messed up dreams about my TV. In one I was throwing the lever on a guillotine but the blade was a Panasonic plasma...messy! In another one which has been the most reoccurring I'm going around hitting people over the head with my plasma like a wrestler with a folding chair.
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post #5002 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:44pm
Quote:


Sorry if this has been discussed already, but is there any data for the 58/65" plasmas?

yes anyone entering a long thread should take the time to read the last 20-30 pages as there is a good chance the topic has already been discussed

from the LIMITED data we have, the big sets start lower and do not rise as high in the absolute sense (although in a % sense the rise might be similar).
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post #5003 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nascar Dog View Post

Also watch out for Kuro "dirty screen effect" caused by the bonded filter.
I returned a PRO-111FD becasue of the very obvious DSE.

I sure hope the 2010 V and G series don't have this DSE problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

I assume you will be paying a premium price, so therefore I hopr you don't receive a buzzer. As you said yourself no plasma is perfect or T.V for that matter.

Anyway, I wish you well on the purchase of your new Kuro. I'm Holding out for the 2010 Panny V-series myself. There has been some good talk about them so far, but I guess we'll have to wait and see...

Actualy no I got a very good price and the nice thing unlike the black level rise issue if I do have a problem I also have a 5 year in house warranty that will cover it and if they cant fix it they will replace it with a equal or greater value display . I also wish you and all Panasonic 2009 and 2010 owners or owners to be, the best with the Black level rise issue and hope they fixed it for 2010 . I just didnt want to end up with a ticking time tomb like the few selected Panny owners have and didnt want to be part of . Well if the Pioneer has issues i'll just get another display who knows I couldmake a big circle back to Panny and hopefully they'll have ther act together by then. Good luck guys I wish you all the best
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post #5004 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I realize that but I thought it was amusing anyway

There are certain things which are not a matter of opinion, however -- one of which being the size of the sample required to establish a specific confidence level.



obviously I am aware!! did I not say above:

"The key is to get a representative sample. Obviously, we have some selection bias going on here.... I keep hoping more people will contribute, we need more data especially from people who don't think they have problems!"

I have been one of the people leading the charge for more data, and less wild speculation / hysteria. So I don't really disagree with you in principle, more just picking nits with the assumptions about necessary sample size.



I think that is only true if you presume that there is some difference among different build dates / production runs. I'm not sure we have any reason to believe that. If you assume that they are all going to exhibit similar behavior, the group trends can still be valuable in establishing the broad scope of the problem and consistency across a multitude of sets.

Plus, in practical terms, it's simply more effort for people to look up their build date especially if your TV is wall-mounted.

Good points.

And sorry for making you repeat yourself. You and I were on the same page I just didn't write out my thoughts correctly or clearly for that matter. My bad.

Yes, I'm not sure either on the build dates and any relation either. It's why I thought it might be interesting to correlate the data.

Although I need to take a break from this thread and come back in a week and see how your coming along. I'm really interested to see the larger size screens included in the plot. Great job so far; it's a pain in the ass keeping up with all of it. But it's good someone is

If you weren't doing it I'd probably consider creating a public web form that asks for all of the information and just index it on model or serial # and store it in a SQL database. That way people can fill out their own information and use some freeware tools to graph in real-time. If that ever interests you PM me.
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post #5005 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

yes anyone entering a long thread should take the time to read the last 20-30 pages as there is a good chance the topic has already been discussed

from the LIMITED data we have, the big sets start lower and do not rise as high in the absolute sense (although in a % sense the rise might be similar).

That's actually very encouraging. Thanks for the info.
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post #5006 of 10800
2/22/10 at 2:56pm
FYI - here is the data I have for 58/65 models:

Code:
User / Panel / Meter            Hours   MLL (ft-L)
mmoh00 65S1 i1 D2/LT            4       0.005
Orta 65S1 i1 D2/LT              20      0.006
RickD1225 65V10 i1 Beamer       50      0.011
AtlPaul 65S1 i1LT               127     0.006
AtlPaul 65S1 i1LT               184     0.005
mjmorrison 65V10 DTP-94         260     0.0087
silverfx 58S1 i1 D2/LT          300     0.006
Orta 65S1 i1 D2/LT              300     0.008
Falcon64v 58V10 DTP-94          435     0.009
RickD1225 65V10 i1 Beamer       480     0.012
schwaggy 65V10 i1 PRO           485     0.012
robi1138 58V10 i1 D2/LT         608     0.008
Yukon Trooper 58S1 i1 D2/LT     675     0.012
robi1138 58V10 i1 D2/LT         683     0.008
mjmorrison 65V10 DTP-94         762     0.0087
mjmorrison 65V10 DTP-94         1126    0.0087
unfortunately we need a LOT more data on sets >1000 hrs....
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post #5007 of 10800
2/22/10 at 3:04pm
I am curious about the idle luminance when you change your settings from light to dark. I Guess it's pointless though because it crushes the blacks. I tryed setting mine to dark but couldn't calibrate the black levels accurately. (It crushed the blacks) Maybe when some of the sets reach a higher black level this setting will benefit.
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post #5008 of 10800
2/22/10 at 3:17pm
it has been discussed MANY times already that the "black level light/dark" setting has absolutely nothing to do with MLL.
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post #5009 of 10800
2/22/10 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlivesay View Post

I was told that since it's been discovered recently that rising black levels are "normal" Panasonic would not pay have a tech come out again. I persisted, saying that my rise is excessive

If they wanted to, they could tell people, if the color fades to almost B&W, that it would be 'normal', as well.

Quote:


when I asked if "stabilize" meant that the black level would return to its like-new value, he just said "all I know is that it will have excellent picture quality". OK then.

No, because 'stabilize' means to 'keep steady'. So, in summary, they effectively said, the MLL will rise for so many hours, then it will stabilize (keep steady); pretty clear to me. I don't know where some people have been getting the idea that by 'stabilize', Panasonic meant that the MLL of the TV would return to its original reading (or thereabouts), and then stabilize. If they had meant that, they would have said that.
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post #5010 of 10800
2/22/10 at 3:40pm
Ok fair enough. I could of swore by changing this it dropped but I suppose I was mistaken. I'm going to investigate some more when i get home. Damn it you're gonna cause me to buy one of those meters: especially since I'm one of the guys who thinks he doesn't have an affected set. To be very honest my blacks seemed to have improved. But a pointless statement I need a meter!
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