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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 168

post #5011 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Possibly, photographs are not a very good way to determine black level performance because with enough exposure, even a Kuro can look bright and I assure your they are not.

True, but photographs work just fine as long as you have a reference beside your plasma, and you take the pictures in total darkness with the same camera settings. The whole point is take a pic of your plasma at x number of hours and then several hundred hrs later to see if it has lightened up. I fully agree, just a picture of your plasma by itself with no kind of reference for comparison reveals very little.

If you can't set an LCD/CRT monitor beside your plasma, lay a black piece of felt in front of the screen, so you have some contrast between the glowing screen and the dark black felt. Then repeat the process several hundred hours later, with the same felt in front of the screen. If the TV's blacks have lightened considerably, you ought to be able to easily tell by comparing the two photos and how much the screen glows compared to the black felt. If there has been a major lightening, the black felt will stand out against the screen much more prominently.

Of course you must do this in total darkness and you have to be careful to record the exact same picture/camera settings each time.

Also, download the free AVS test disc and use a 0 IRE, which is better than just using a blank input. You can even make a 0 IRE jpeg from the test disc and probably just use the SD card slot on the side.
post #5012 of 11163
The panasonic technician came to my home today and he did the scan board update along with the THX fix update. I spoke with him throughout the process and he was very cool about everything.

I asked him about the broken infinite black feature and he said he'd pass it on to the engineers and that he would have to get back to me on that one because he wasn't aware of it. I asked him if he was familiar with the rising black levels and he said he was a little. When we were chatting he said that the black levels on my set looked good, but there was plenty of ambient light coming in through the window so that you actually couldn't really tell.

So I think he was trying to play the issue down a little, but he wasn't totally dismissive of it either. I think at this point, Panasonic is going to treat the infinite black feature as a, "we'll look into it" circumstance and who knows if anything will ever materialize.

I've been watching the Dark Knight again and it looks awesome. I'm going to enjoy my set and forget about the issue. I don't think I'm as picky as some here, but as long as the picture looks good to me then the hell with it because I don't think I could have bought a better 42" set at the time even with this issue present and there's nothing I can do about it now.

I'll probably check back occasionally since I'm curious what kind of progress if any is made, but for the most part my set looks good and I'm just going to enjoy it.
post #5013 of 11163
Speaking of photographs, here's my 42G15, before and after the rise:


.012 ftL at 100 hours


.023 ftL at 146 hours

The same camera and settings were used for both shots. When viewed on a computer screen with a gamma setting of 2.2, this roughly represents what I see in reality. Regardless of what the second shot looks like on your individual monitors, though, believe me when i say that this is shockingly unacceptable performance.
post #5014 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

sadly, you seem to fit into the small percentage of people who have sets that are truly "broken". From what I can ascertain, "normal" operation (according to Panny) is a gradual rise to around double the initial level, such that it wouldn't be noticed unless you were picky or on the look-out for it. A few unlucky folks like you are getting nailed with horrendous, literally overnight changes...

Does this mean my set is "more" defective than Panasonic planned? Could my set's performance actually be considered outside their definition of "normal" and hence warrant a replacement A Board or some such?
post #5015 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

V

24 hours later I have the same MLL reading.

Good to hear! Please keep us updated!
post #5016 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

V

24 hours later I have the same MLL reading.


Thanks. I was half joking but if you're up to it, we sure are.

Larry
post #5017 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Wait a minute! Why is ANYONE still insisting this bug affects only a small percentage of 2009 models? PANASONIC ADMITTED TO THE FACT THAT ALL UNITS ARE AFFECTED! Didn't these contrarians get the memo?

It may affect all, but not to the same degree.

I believe most 12G Panasonics' black level rising actually does happen gradually, while a smaller percentage experiences severe jumps (doubles over night). These one's are defects, and Panasonic should replace them. Although this whole fiasco seems to have forced them to stonewall everyone who calls even asking about the issue.

Personally, I have not seen any kind of noticeably severe jump in black level on my G10 which leads me to believe for most it's still an unnoticeable gradual rise. I dont yet own a meter but am planning to order one soon.
post #5018 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Does this mean my set is "more" defective than Panasonic planned? Could my set's performance actually be considered outside their definition of "normal" and hence warrant a replacement A Board or some such?

All I can tell you is your set is certainly broken. And I'd stay on the the phone with Panasonic until that problem got resolved. Don't let up until they finally give in.

I wish I could have seen your programming before and after.
post #5019 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

All I can tell you is your set is certainly broken. And I'd stay on the the phone with Panasonic until that problem got resolved. Don't let up until they finally give in.

I wish I could have seen your programming before and after.

Thanks for the encouragement. I intend to be quite insistent when I give them a call.
post #5020 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFactor View Post

I agree with you 100% on both your posts especially the very small percentages you've mentioned and unfortunately i've been caught up in this Black level rise issues on this Forum and it totally took the joy and excitement out of my new purchase of this 65v10 and even though the pq is amazing I cant enjoy it anymore wondering if im going to be part of that very small percent with the black level rise issue . So i've decided to trade it back in while I still could and pick up one of the last Pioneer kuro's. I just hope I didnt jump from the frying pan to the fire, I guess time will tell once I receive it . Thanks for sharing your thoughts as we seem to share the same feelings about this black level issue but unfortunately like I said I got caught up with all this black level rise issues here on AVS and its got the best of me so my dream display must go



Been off the thread a few days, Wow! I thought you would be the last one to turn on Panasonic, but good for you Factor, I am jealous. I look at 500M's with lust in my heart, a few still around 3k (which I don't have, stupid basement remodel). I would have done the same thing, but I found this thread after the return period on my G15 expired, kinda sucks sitting here wondering what's going to happen over the next 1000 hours or so. Good luck with the new Kuro, my bro-in-law has one and it is just sick (in a good way).
post #5021 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody1811 View Post



Been off the thread a few days, Wow! I thought you would be the last one to turn on Panasonic, but good for you Factor, I am jealous. I look at 500M's with lust in my heart, a few still around 3k (which I don't have, stupid basement remodel). I would have done the same thing, but I found this thread after the return period on my G15 expired, kinda sucks sitting here wondering what's going to happen over the next 1000 hours or so. Good luck with the new Kuro, my bro-in-law has one and it is just sick (in a good way).

Thanks Cody, it really was a hard choice to make I mean its hard to give something up that i've been wanting for so long and so very impressed with now that i've finally have it. But the what ifs were getting the best of me and its a lot of money i've got invested in it . I again still stand strong on my beliefs thst its a very small % having issues. But when I weighed it out it just wasnt worth the gamble since I still had a way out . I personally think your going to be ok with your Panny and just try and enjoy it . It really is one of the best displays on the market being made today imo . I hope this 60'' Kuro doesnt let me down,
post #5022 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Thanks for the encouragement. I intend to be quite insistent when I give them a call.

Do it. No offense but that second photo looks horrible...make sure they fix it or give you your money back.
post #5023 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by robi1138 View Post

You have got to be kidding me! You spent countless posts ignoring the black level issue in your pro-Panny thread, told everyone who had a black level issue to stay out of your thread, couldn't understand why someone should have an issue with rising blacks, and NOW you're returning yours for a Pioneer even though you don't have a black level issue?

lol, I thought the exact same thing when I read it...just wanted to wait to hear what your reaction was Robi!!
post #5024 of 11163
These aren't good photo's for Black Level referencing (or good photo's period)but I'll throw them out here anyway and see what you guys think.

I'm the guy who thinks he doesn't have the problem but Who knows?? Before it's all said and done I can see myself owning a meter in the near future.
LL
LL
LL
post #5025 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonesdad View Post

lol, I thought the exact same thing when I read it...just wanted to wait to hear what your reaction was Robi!!

Eh...it's all good. Like I said, can't say I blame him...would love a Kuro myself but as long as the blacks hold on I'm ok with the V10.
post #5026 of 11163
panaman88,

looks good to me, colors not washed out, no gray looking blacks either
post #5027 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Speaking of photographs, here's my 42G15, before and after the rise:


.012 ftL at 100 hours


.023 ftL at 146 hours

The same camera and settings were used for both shots. When viewed on a computer screen with a gamma setting of 2.2, this roughly represents what I see in reality. Regardless of what the second shot looks like on your individual monitors, though, believe me when i say that this is shockingly unacceptable performance.

I've seen that same color before, but I've also seen the infinite black screen too. Can you post a picture of an actual blu-ray scene? I said this short ways back and I don't think anyone acknowledged it, but I'd like to see what your actual content looks like, because that's what we watch, not blank input screens.
post #5028 of 11163
If you click on the attachments icon by the thread title, there are some really really washed out panny pictures. I'm not sure about any actually source material such as Blu-ray.
post #5029 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

If you click on the attachments icon by the thread title, there are some really really washed out panny pictures. I'm not sure about any actually source material such as Blu-ray.

Ok, I looked at those and there were a couple that looked bad. But now I'm very skeptical. I'm going to make a claim, if your black levels are not noticeably affected while viewing your content, then the black levels are irrelevant.
post #5030 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

I've seen that same color before, but I've also seen the infinite black screen too. Can you post a picture of an actual blu-ray scene? I said this short ways back and I don't think anyone acknowledged it, but I'd like to see what your actual content looks like, because that's what we watch, not blank input screens.

Here's one for ya. Gotta love those deep GRAYS!

post #5031 of 11163
Well the black bars are shite, but the in the screen costumes look pretty black .

What picture settings do you have out of curiosity?
post #5032 of 11163
It is bad, but not quite as bad as I expected. Panny will probably try to blow you off. Just keep trying and trying and if all else fails you might try my advice from the PM.

Good Luck
post #5033 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

If you click on the attachments icon by the thread title, there are some really really washed out panny pictures. I'm not sure about any actually source material such as Blu-ray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Here's one for ya. Gotta love those deep GRAYS!


Is that on a blu-ray? Also, can you try to crush blacks per-se, is that possible?
post #5034 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

These aren't good photo's for Black Level referencing (or good photo's period)but I'll throw them out here anyway and see what you guys think.

I'm the guy who thinks he doesn't have the problem but Who knows?? Before it's all said and done I can see myself owning a meter in the near future.


Look at the drastic difference between yours and anthrojohn. In my opinion, just from looking at your posted pictures, your black levels look great (with content) to me. Anthrojohn's on the other hand, look pretty drab and dreadful (sorry man) - his display has something really wrong with it.

Anthrojohn, I hope that you're steadfast in your resolve and get either: 1.) A full refund, or 2.) An exchange for a different set. Barring those two scenarios, I wouldn't settle for anything less than the above. Good luck, and I hope that one of the two above actions become a reality for you in the coming weeks ahead.
post #5035 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Here's one for ya. Gotta love those deep GRAYS!

YIKES! It's disheartening to see our fellow members go down one by one.

It looks more like purple blue on my computer screen. Maybe the 'voltage' is affecting blue and red cells differently than greens on your set? Any chance that your typical viewing content favors aging speed of one color over another, say, by playing a certain game often? Just curious if there's something to do with the purple black.
post #5036 of 11163
I know this isn't super technical, but try doing Standard and Contrast at 40, Bright at 40, Color at 40 tint 4 left and warm 2 and Black level light and see if it looks any better.
post #5037 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Here's one for ya. Gotta love those deep GRAYS!


Please post your settings when this picture was taken
post #5038 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

Well the black bars are shite, but the in the screen costumes look pretty black .

I think it's just an optical illusion sort of thing. Using the Windows Paint program, you can copy a small rectangle piece of the black suit and paste it next to the bars and side by side, you can see clearly that the suit piece is actually as bright as the bars if not brighter.
post #5039 of 11163
Or to put it more plainly, the contrast within the picture itself is higher since there's brighter content around it, whereas the black bars have 0 internal contrast so their brightness is plain to the eye since there's nothing brighter in them to make them look darker.
post #5040 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Here's one for ya. Gotta love those deep GRAYS!


Good God that is horrendous!! I think my G10 is starting to suffer this affliction too but it's hard to say as I don't have any measurements. (and no I'm not succumbing to paranoia just yet) I notice my tv is more washed out looking overall when viewing generally. I'm going to try to get a photo with black bars on a good source (blu-ray quality mkv) though my camera skills will admittedly be lacking.

What I notice with my set is the black bars on a 2.35 movie look light but the blacks in the scene seem pretty good. Certainly your scene looks better than the black bars to my eyes although it's likely the scene contrast as others have proposed. Good job of documenting & presenting what is occurring. I can't see how Panny can defend what is happening to you.

Edit: I have a 42" Samsung in my bedroom (cheap ass plasma) & I swear its Blacks on 2.35 movies are better at the top & bottom though i've never seen them side by side either.
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