Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 176

Here's one that still eats at me a bit -- I still don't feel like there has been a satisfactory technical explanation for why we have seen a few sets (anthrojohn's being the most recent example) experience sudden jumps, doubling/tripling all at once up to 0.02X, whereas others (like you) have this nice gradual progression towards the MLL "plateau" (also 0.02x).

Obviously, the fact that the voltage increases at pre-determined intervals explains the "literally overnight" jumps, but why are most increasing in little jumps towards an eventual (ostensible) plateau, whereas a select few seem to have these outragous "all at once" jumps early in the set's life?

Or is it simply not a real phenomenon? And only seems to be?

I supposed that across your contacts to be informed if the situation in europa was equal.

If it had money already he had invited him to a trip to europa(spain)
I have a kuro and believe that enough good is given him

I'm not sure he quite said that with clarity ... He said future sets won't have the issue; someone asked whether this meant 13G, he replied that sets in the distribution chain are not future sets in his sense; I asked specifically re: 13G 58/65" VTs as unsure whether these unbuilt units (the very last of the '10s to be made) are already "in the distro chain"; no answer.

Still hopeful Panny will be able to fix this on units they haven't manufactured yet (and won't do so until late summer) ...

Guys, I have read this thread from start to finish but my memory is pretty vague if this has been answered. At what meter readings do the most of you start noticing change in your television sets (PQ) versus your own set of eyes. The reason I ask this is because my set will soon be a year old with 1500 hours. For some reason, I can't see any change in my black level. I tryed flip-flopping Blu-rays in and out of my player consistantly last night looking for even the slightest change. I've stared at the "Idle Luminance" over and over while changing inputs. All lights off. Still it all looks the same as the day I received it. I'm certainly not in denial of the rising blacks or I wouldn't be asking, but I'm really curious about this.

D-Nice can speak for himself, but reading his and Panasonic statements, one thing is completely clear. No one is saying they do not.

Right now, all indicators are that the 2010 plasma's are designed to have rising voltages with a more gradual increase. What we cannot say with certainty is the degree or time it will take for a rise for MLL.

The fact that D-Nice said that the next generation (14G) will not is probably due to the inclusion of additional Kuro technology.

- Rich

This seems to be missing the point. There is no gap. Do you really think Panasonic designed sets with black levels that rise ON PURPOSE? LGs don't rise. Kuros don't rise. Samsungs don't rise. Panny's do, because they blew the design and now can't figure out what to do about it. There are no questions (other than perhaps who they are going to fire). There is no mystery. There is a design defect that they can't remedy, and they are scurrying around "on both sides of the Pacific" to see if they can fix it, and if not, how to avoid the issue becoming a huge problem (rather than one confined to a few niche communities like this one).

Are you saying only P has programmed in gradually rising levels? not sure that is correct: others do it/ have done it too.

I think the real issue is the noticeable rise in these levels, which may turn out to be a firmware coding error

I don't know about this Mark. Pioneer didn't do it (6-9G), Samsung doesn't do it (at least in their last gen). If any other manufacturer did it, and the panels were not OEM'ed via Panasonic, they have not shown up yet.

All PDP manufacturers have auto voltage adjustments. However, they do not change the idle luminance levels.

^ unless everyone does it correctly and to a much much smaller degree, and panasonic just really screwed it up

I do think panny has done a decient job of fixing certain issues such as the THX firmware fix, but they have done a real crappy job of getting it to people. I don't agree with having a tech come out to install it. It should be able to be downloaded via the TV.

I hope they can come up with a firmware fix for the black level as well. I seriously doubt they will re-make IC Boards to fix the problem if that is where it lies. MY 50V10 is supposed to have IB, well... where is it????

I just hope they fix the issue as I find this unacceptable when they advertise these TVs as IB being a selling point.

I am not sure about what most manufacturers are doing, but this is, IMO,an important point. The change in black level that panasonic seems to be implementing may be at the video level and not just at the panel control level. The voltages needed to activate the cells and reset them are known to change with time and other vendors have said that they do some compensation for this. What people are describing with these set seems to be a video level at black, which is not necessarily the same thing. The panel activation level does detemine the minimum brightness, but on top of that so does the way you drive it with the video.

The automatic voltage adjustment are directly affecting the idle luminance levels of their displays. Volage adjustments are necesary and should be done. However they should not change the idle luminance level regardless if the panel is receiving a video/pc signal or not. How Panasonic coded thier regulator is the issue.

Woo Hoo!!! I hit 1,000 hours on my 58S1 last night and I still like the PQ.
Based on measurement made with my eyes to the brain.

Well, all I have to say after reading this thread for aover an hour is (and I have nothing of value to say BTW)... Hey my old professional series TH-50PH10UKA, isn't so bad after all with it's grey blacks. And to think I have been wanting to replace it with a newer Panasonic for better blacks!

(I just had to be a part of this thread!)

So, if you touch the screen with your finger tip, does it look like you are right against the panel like it does on a Kuro (or even a high end Samsung plasma)?
Or, does there appear to be a gap between your finger and the panel?

What I don't get is why does it only affect 11g and 12g panels? Pre 2008 models don't have a gradual black level increase? If so, why doesn't Panasonic just do whatever they were doing back then and get rid of this silly issue?

The 2007 PX75 series started out at .012, and if you look at Larry's measurements, it isn't anywhere close to that.

The gap is there. Retailers already have it out on display so you can do it for yourself.

Well then I sure hope it's not there on the G and V series 2010 models.

I am in Canada so we won't see any of the new models fopr a few months.

Oh... well then I apologize about that my Canadian friend. Congrats on the dominant win over Germany last night!

It won't be there on the G and V series. The third (front) pane of glass has been removed from those models. The only thing that front pane ever really did in my opinion is make for a sleek looking television. (in regards to the full-fronted PZ800 and V10) Perhaps someone more savvy than myself can fill us in as to why they haven't canned the third pane long ago.

I know it's not a huge deal to most, but I'm excited about what this means for weight reduction. I have an older house and when I first purchased my 50PZ85U I just didn't feel comfortable mounting it to the wall. The G10 is slightly lighter, but I still went with the option of having a TV stand with a built-in television mount. The weight reduction is pretty drastic on the G20/25 series and the VT series should follow suit. I may be wall mounting my TV sometime in the future afterall.

With so many threads to pick from I am finding it hard to choose the right spot for my question. Some of these sets are sold in Best Buy right? They have there sets on all day every day. Wouldn't you expect to see these issues on the display models? I mean if I go to best buy and I check out a G10 and it looks good to me in general and compared to others that can't I assume that maybe I can't notice the changes as much as anybody else?

Unless Best Buy is displaying these sets in a completely dark room then you won't be able to grasp the severity of a rise. Normal lighting conditions for retailers is bright fluorescent overhead lighting. I doubt the viewing conditions will be the same in your home.

In fact, even with the moderate natural light that graces my living room during the day my G10 looks largely fine. While not the best AR coating in the world, it still does a great job in my opinion. However, when day turns to night the problems become blatantly apparent.

The reason to keep the front pane of glass is because it helps reduce audible panel buzz. (Samsung and Pioneer had the single pane and they had buzz problems for example) it tends to absorb and dissipate any buzz from coming directly at you. Side effect is the internal reflections and added weight. (Samsung's new 50inch plasma sets with the single pane are now as light as an LCD for example (59-62 pounds), I don't know how light the Panny plasma sets will be)

by design the rise is not suppose to be noticeable. Thats why you have people that see it and some that dont. The issue lies for people whose sets rose enough to be noticed after the intial purchase. That is not working by design.

where did you get that info from? It doesn't sound believable to me -- the 7XX models were barely better (if at all) than the 6XX in terms of black level. In fact, the 1080p models were noted as having a higher black level (1st year of the new tech) than the previous models.

I am highly skeptical that a 7XX Panny started out anywhere close to the 11/12G sets in terms of black level. If a PX75 was at 0.012, and the 12G's are at 0.008 or so, that means black levels barely improved in two gens.

I have seen plenty of these sets in person in people's homes (friends/family/myself have sets from 9G-12G) and there was a big jump in black level performance from the 10G to 11G models. I think most measurements have the 7XX models more in the 0.020+ range. I see HTMag's measurements have the 700U at 0.015/0.017 but I am skeptical of their measurements after them reporting 0.012 for a 60U!

I can see the gap between the third layer and the PDP module under it.

Thanks for the info! Now, before people start in with "oh noes! Panny buzzers!," keep in mind that Samsung experienced the buzz with their sets that had an outer pane of glass as well. For example, there are plenty of B550 owners who have reported this problem.

According to Panasonic's website, the 50G20/25 will weigh 57.3 lbs without the stand.

Remember, the 1080p models had higher base blacks than the 720p models that year. And if their blacks rise just like the current sets do, then your question is answered for you. BTW, D-Nice is the one that quoted the .012 for the PX75, I'm just repeating what he told me about their blacks.

About the same as the Samsung models... looks like the days of People saying Plasma is too heavy are finally over.

well, sure. good point.


if that's the case then so be it, but having seen plenty of Panny plasmas from all four gens (9G-12G) I would be just shocked if that were actually true. The 7XX's I have seen were barely better (if at all) than the 6XX's in black level, both pro and consumer...