Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 181

There are none. I would happily add them to the spreadsheet and have repeatedly called for people who think they DON'T have the problem to post some measurements (with the assumption that the data provided here is subject to some selection bias) but nobody has come forth!

The closest thing we have is the 58/65 sets which appear to either not rise or rise very slightly, but the problem is (1) they start lower and (2) we don't have much long-term (>1000 hrs) data. If you look a the overall 58/65 numbers, there is still a clear upward trend, it's just that the upper-end is much lower than on the smaller sets (ending up at 0.008 - 0.012 so far).

Given that:

1) we cannot seem to find ANY contradicting data and;
2) Panny has admitted publicly that all sets' MLL will rise over time;
3) corroborating info from D-Nice;

I don't see any reason to think that this doesn't affect EVERY set. The question then becomes about EXPECTATIONS -- the difference between 0.008 and 0.015 is hard to notice unless you are in a darkened room, many people are still perfectly happy with their TV's even with elevated MLL (especially with mixed content on the screen it is hard to notice and, hell, it is still much better than my older plasmas even at 0.015 or 0.020!).

MetorWar,
When my meter comes in I am going to try to use that grayscale for dummies guide to adjust my grayscale as much as possible without going into the SM. By adjusting the settings in my PRO menu, it should give me decient results.

That is good to know, none the least.

I have a 46" G10 and am one of the people who cannot notice a rise if it's happened. I was going to order an i1 LT today but the place I'm getting it from has it on back order now. My G10 has over 1300 hrs on it. When I finally get the meter I will gladly post my results but I wont be surprised to see the level has indeed risen and I just cant see it. I am guessing it's in the .015 area but that is pretty baseless.


Yes, it is good to know. But then again, how much can you trust live chat reps.

Are you claiming these products are perfect with no defects?

You cant take these shots to show somebody the black level rising problem.
Look at the EXIF data on the shots.
The second shot was made with ISO200 and the third with ISO400 (in his post he said he made it with ISO200!). That means that you have redoubled the lights in there.

You easily can adjust lightnes of any photo in number of different ways. But what you cant do - is to adjust brightness of plasma when not influencing apearance of LCD, that sits next to each other. (unless you do it on purpose using photoshop tricks) I believe these photos were made for comparing both sets not to scare old ladies.

But showing a LCD with no signal WILL usually give you a black screen like that but that all changes once it gets a signal.

Just a little FYI

Plexiglass has a hard outer layer that resists scratching.

Lexan is the other one that can be scratched but in the right thickness is bullet proof. Once had a alternator explode on a test stand at 10k RPM, groin level....thank god for lexan and expanded metal.

Well since you have repeatedly called for measurement and us minions have not given you any data, it is probably because we don't have meters, nor have we had our sets calibrated.

Please forward a meter or money to anyone who requests such, "oh exulted one" so that we may come FORTH!!

Doesn't it still have the AR coating that is easy to scratch; weakest link, and all that sort of thing?

I believe the Panny's have the coating on the inside and not the outside.

Why do you think Pioneer stop producing plasmas eventhough everybody is saying that they were the best plasma around while they were in production?

How many people do you think are rich enough to justify paying $4K for a 60" plasma, when they can buy a 65" for $2,300?

Why do you think Vizio became the #1 LCD tv seller in 2009?
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s...,1173003.shtml

So you are comparing the current sale price of a TC-P65S1 to a Kuro? And 4K was for an Elite. The 600M and 6020 were much less.

The AR coating is on the ouside. It would be worthless if it were on the inside.

I'm surprised this material is used. We have sheets of acrylic, LEXAN, Makrolon at my work and the stuff is way too flexible at typical display substrate thicknesses. And while the bulk material is very tough it is extremely easy to do superficial damage to it even with AS coatings on it.

Audiotitus - never did do a calibration from Best Buy.

Was offered either an extended warranty or calibration at a much reduced price due to a lousy deliver from Best Buy when purchasing my 50V10 in August. (The BB dudes who were supposed to remove the set from the box, mount it on the stand and test with at least one source, placed the unopened box in my living room and said adios mf).

I opted for the extended warranty. Right now that looks awfully good. After about 1200 hours of excellent viewing (through mid-December) my blacks went from nice and black to a quite medium shade of gray. Picture is still acceptable but not what I paid for.

I did find out my local BB has an ISF certified calibrator and he does use the Service Menu and he would have been glad to come out late afternoon and do different calibrations for daylight and dark. I think that this varies greatly from location to location as I know I have read of others who have had BB arrive and never enter the service menu and do the same basic calibrations without a meter that a bozo like me could do.

My intention at the time was to wait until the unit was four or five months old and by the EyeOneLT and attempt calibration myself using the guide and software from Curt Palme. There is also a local ISF calibrator with a good reputation, probably double or triple what the BB special deal or the EyeOne would cost. However, with a set displaying glorious grays, I do not feel like investing anything further at this time.

I have spoken with BB concerning my extended warranty. Was advised to call in a trouble ticket and only mention the IR and IB issues. If replacement of one of the various boards does not solve the problem, BB says that my set would be replaced under the extended warranty.

Have had numerous thoughts on when to do this.

Do I wait for the 2010 Panasonics to be on the shelves and see if the rising blacks remains an issue?

Do I even want a replacement unit from Panasonic? Since Pioneer is gone and I was too dumb to buy a 500M last year, what would I be satisfied with.

If I wait, will Panasonic issue some instructions to Best Buy to not assist users with IR, IB or any issues concerning 2008/2009 Panasonic sets?

Lots to ponder there. Just hope I don't screw up a second time on my decision.

The price was for the 6020 in Magnolia during the time I bought my 58S1 in Nov 09.
If you compare the prices now in Amazon, the 60" Elite is $8,500 against $4,000 for 65V10.

I have plenty of calibration discs, going back to A Video Standard on Laser. The only issue I can see is I do not have an HDMI splitter, so I can't show the same source on both TVs at the same time, other than via satellite boxes. I know that the HDnet test pattern has some black sections, but have no idea if they are 0 IRE or not.

I could do the Avia on DVD and Blu Ray seperately, then switch sources and take two pictures, but it would still not be as good as from the same source.



Not sure I get your meaning here?

I recognize a bit of sarcasm but is the issue bad enough to not even buy one at all or is it just people being nitpicky (no offense). I am too, but I still want the best I can buy for the money. So the question remains...

Would a pn42g10 (reg $1300-> now $800) even with rising black-level issues still be better than a Samsung 42b450 or 42c450 (both about $600 now)?

BTW I was in Best buy and they had a Panasonic p42u1 (no Neo PDP) next to the Samsung PN42b450 and the Samsung Black levels blew the Panasonics away!

Thanks for responses!

If I were making the choice, for myself, I would grab the 42G10 at that price. It is a far superior 1080P unit, to either of the Samsung 720P units.

hahhaa that is funny.
I do the same every day.

You are still speaking of a TC-P65S1 sale price and specifically quoting a BB price (not on sale) for the 6020FD.... which was not on sale at BB. You could find the 6020 much cheaper elsewhere during the same time period.

Then do you have a photomerge capability in any of your photo editing software? I have it in every Adobe Photoshop version I own. Take the pics separately under the exact same conditions and then merge them into one. Resize and your done. Use a tripod and 100 ISO for both and then there will be less grain.

I still suggest downloading the AVSHD disc as it contains some elements that really help get that last bit out your tweaking. The 1% window and the 5% window sections are really helpful in fine tuning when trying to hold Black at Black. Using other test patterns can get you close but these will help show if you're still one click away from getting it just right.

That may be true, but its still not necessarily a realistic representation of what the differences would look like in person. It reminds me of the Pioneer demo from a few years ago that compared a True zero luminance prototype to the Kuro. People took photos of the two side by side and posted them on AVS. There were about 50 pages of people screaming that the Kuro must have been screwed up because they have way better blacks on their Kuros. Bottom line is that depending on camera settings, those pictures almost always over-expose or under-expose the difference.

Same here, and it hurts every time as I wait for the gray shoe to drop.

Truth be told, you won't get an LCD that can compete with it for $600.00 even with problems. Go Sammy first. If you are not happy with it, try Panny. Or you can wait for a while and see how things go. Panny is a big question mark right now.

Plexiglas (yes, the correct spelling only has on 's') is a brand of acrylic, (which is a type of plastic, for anyone that might not know). Other brands of acrylic include Lucite (commonly known brand), and Acrylite, and I am sure there are others. I don't know if TUF-glass is a brand name or just a trademark a TV manufacturer is using to make the acrylic on their TVs sound like it's tuf... err...tough.

If one's TV failed between 12 mos./1 day and 15 mos., one would be happy to have had a warranty with Samsung instead of Panasonic. If one had a CC w/ an ext. warranty, add one year to both time periods. I still like Panasonic better overall, though.

THX (Cinema) is not available on the V10 for the SD card.

Unfortunately, you will HAVE to go into the SM IF you want to calibrate THX.