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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 183

post #5461 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

What is this $8k nonsense?

Obviously you do not know how to read.

I said, "If you compare the price now in Amazon....."
So here is the link to Amazon just in case you do not know how to check it.
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-PRO-15...7197534&sr=8-1
post #5462 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

I compared a 54G10 to a Sammy 50B860 the other day at Sears. Even took my own batteries in case either of the remotes was dead. Adjusted the pics as best I could under those lighting conditions without measurement and compared both sitting right next to each other. The Sammy was superior in virtually every regard. The G10 on display looked to have already been hit with the rising MLL as the blacks were clearly dark grey, so not a fair comparison in absolutes. Just a fair comparison in terms of what Panny currently offers as ''excellent PQ'' to it's customers. Not so tangentially, Bob Perry connected to anything related to CS issues does not bode well for Panny, near or long term.

The Samsung will always look better under the bright lights compared to the G10. It's that dull-gray AR coating that Panasonic used on the 12g's, I believe. Makes it look washed out.

If you wander over to the 2010 Panny thread though, there seem to be a lot of good details emerging about the new AR coatings and panel brightness.

But, I'm like you...I'm not forking over money for a 13g Panny until there are some actions/reassurances from the corporate mothership.
post #5463 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

The Samsung will always look better under the bright lights compared to the G10. It's that dull-gray AR coating that Panasonic used on the 12g's, I believe. Makes it look washed out.

If you wander over to the 2010 Panny thread though, there seem to be a lot of good details emerging about the new AR coatings and panel brightness.

But, I'm like you...I'm not forking over money for a 13g Panny until there are some actions/reassurances from the corporate mothership.

Yes, lots of hopeful news on that thread. If not for the info gathered there and other places taking Panny product development seriously, I would have already taken the plunge with a Sammy B650 or B860, despite the buzz potential. Even considered the LG LH90 if I moved away from plasma (shudder) . Desperate times call for desperate measures, I guess. Just not that desperate yet.

Who would of thought Pioneer leaving the plasma field would have such immediate repercussions? Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. This pic of the 13g and 12g respectively with the solar space shot makes me quite hopeful:


post #5464 of 11163
Will everyone who has posted a measured mll please state if they had 48 or 60hz selected at the tv level? I was messing around last night and noticed I didn't change the tv back to 48hz after the THX update and my last reading. After making the change back to 48hz my tv consistently measured back to .018 ftL. I quickly changed the tv back to 60hz and the net result was an increase to .026 after checking the pluge pattern. The measurements were taken with a i1 d2 lt, ps3, avs 709 and chromapure.
post #5465 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post

Will everyone who has posted a measured mll please state if they had 48 or 60hz selected at the tv level? I was messing around last night and noticed I didn't change the tv back to 48hz after the THX update and my last reading. After making the change back to 48hz my tv consistently measured back to .018 ftL. I quickly changed the tv back to 60hz and the net result was an increase to .026 after checking the pluge pattern. The measurements were taken with a i1 d2 lt, ps3, avs 709 and chromapure.

slosvt,

Can you confirm whether you have been experiencing the standard doubled-blacks effect (ie doubling happened suddenly on a 2009 model with around 1000 viewing-hours logged)? If that's true, this is a very interesting development since you seem to have, in this case, actually fixed the problem!
post #5466 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Two things about Panny 'superiority' (flame suit on):

1) I am still waiting to see the V25 before upgrading like many Panny fans, specifically the 54". Not only for the improved blacks but also for the styling as I dislike the glossy black bezels. Bronze matte metallic finish on the 54" seems to fit the bill. But this continuing notion that Panny has a superior picture to the competition based on original blacks when new is clearly flawed, sophomoric comments to the contrary. If the phosphor adjustments work as advertised, then maybe. But clearly not with the issue seen in many of the photos. Take away the Panny blacks and you do not have superior PQ. You have what other brands offer or worse, even much worse. I understand the love for brand that many feel the need to constantly crow about but perhaps it's time to face reality. I suspect many on this board who wasted a good bit of bandwidth denying, excusing, joking, etc. are going to have a difficult time going public if the MLL issue hits close to home.

2) Laying aside the stodgy styling designs ... Panasonic is clearly behind other manufacturers when it comes to user access to PQ control. Why does this continue? A real answer is needed not some childish reply about they don't need to ... it's already perfect or something similar. They bury much needed PQ items in the SM and then start to deny warranty when you calibrate? Total BS. Panny owners might want to stop making so much yellow snow as pissing contests do not make for truth.

I compared a 54G10 to a Sammy 50B860 the other day at Sears. Even took my own batteries in case either of the remotes was dead. Adjusted the pics as best I could under those lighting conditions without measurement and compared both sitting right next to each other. The Sammy was superior in virtually every regard. The G10 on display looked to have already been hit with the rising MLL as the blacks were clearly dark grey, so not a fair comparison in absolutes. Just a fair comparison in terms of what Panny currently offers as ''excellent PQ'' to it's customers. Not so tangentially, Bob Perry connected to anything related to CS issues does not bode well for Panny, near or long term.

Been waiting a good while and I really want to stick with my panel of choice (originally a 54V10 but now the V25). But grade school sniping isn't going to fix panel adjustments gone wrong. If Panny does not/cannot 'fix' what is clearly an issue then like Toyota they will take a PR hit, even without major publicity. The word is already on the boards where folks go to learn and compare. That alone will make for a less profitable year in 2010 for Panny plasma.

Being fans of Panny doesn't mean we shouldn't hold them accountable when something goes wrong. It is, in fact, a major way we can contribute to continuing product improvement. Sometimes I think people lose sight of this.

1) So take away Panny's biggest advantage over Samsung, and then Panny doesn't have a big advantage over Samsung? OK.....

2) No argument here.

3) What you're seeing in the store is not black level difference. The 860 has a very dark AR coating like LCD and keeps its contrast under bright lighting. The G10 has a very light AR coating that washes out easily under lights. Has nothing to do with black level. Indeed the G10 has a much lower initial MLL than the 860. At most, the 860 will equal the G10 in blacks after programmed black level increase.
post #5467 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbrn View Post

slosvt,

Can you confirm whether you have been experiencing the standard doubled-blacks effect (ie doubling happened suddenly on a 2009 model with around 1000 viewing-hours logged)? If that's true, this is a very interesting development since you seem to have, in this case, actually fixed the problem!

He has definitely not fixed the problem. 0.018ftL is still well above the levels the TV should be at.

What is interesting, though, is that another user posted similar experiences with his TV earlier in the thread. However, I'm pretty sure that user experienced darker blacks in 60Hz, whereas an input with a 24Hz input showed lighter blacks.
post #5468 of 11163
Whoops, right, got the values mixed up. Thanks Yukon, even if you did burst my imaginary bubble of joy!
post #5469 of 11163
I've always thought slosvt's last MLL jump (to 0.030 fL and now 0.026) was a bit of suspect because it coincided with the FW update.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

slosvt,

How do you know it's the 1000 hr mark as opposed to the new THX FW installation that caused the black level rise? And I asume you've re-calibrated the set fully for minimum MLL?
post #5470 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

The 860 has a very dark AR coating like LCD and keeps its contrast under bright lighting. The G10 has a very light AR coating that washes out easily under lights. Has nothing to do with black level. Indeed the G10 has a much lower initial MLL than the 860. At most, the 860 will equal the G10 in blacks after programmed black level increase.

The 2010 Panasonic V series plasma's have a very dark filter.



Source: http://itbbs.pconline.com.cn/tv/11024339.html
post #5471 of 11163
the panny tv stands look really nice on that website.
post #5472 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post

Will everyone who has posted a measured mll please state if they had 48 or 60hz selected at the tv level? I was messing around last night and noticed I didn't change the tv back to 48hz after the THX update and my last reading. After making the change back to 48hz my tv consistently measured back to .018 ftL. I quickly changed the tv back to 60hz and the net result was an increase to .026 after checking the pluge pattern. The measurements were taken with a i1 d2 lt, ps3, avs 709 and chromapure.

How does one switch between the two hz levels??
post #5473 of 11163
Originally Posted by CNET Blog
by Eroc51 February 2, 2010 4:23 PM PST
Here's an email I received from Panasonic today. I have been in dialog with them over the case # I opened about the black level issue. This email is in response to me asking "which firmware are you referring to" when they had previously told me "firmware will be coming shortly".

Dear MR ********

Thank you for your inquiry.

There is a new firmware out that can be installed to correct the green
tint on the THX mode and there is another firmware coming out soon to
correct the black level issues.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Thank you for contacting
Panasonic.

Thank You,
Panasonic Consumer Support

here's hoping that a fix is comng.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

I "think" I read another post with a response from Panasonic where dates were mentioned.

In that response, the CSR gave dates for THX and the black level.

NOW, I don't really believe it. But I don't want to rule it out either.

It can be found here
http://news.cnet.com/8601-17938_105-...ag=mncol;tback

I'm the one who posted that on cnet. I posted the same thing on this thread too. I hadn't heard back from Panny since. Sent them an inquiry in light if the recent public statements regarding black level but heard nothing back. I have only slight hope there may be a remedy for the problem. I think that while the public statements aren't encouraging, they were made when pressure was applied and they stated basically there tv's aren't broken. There is a chance their engineers are still looking into the issue. To my knowledge all of us with case #'s haven't received any direct confirmation through a phone call or email that they were closing our cases because nothing was wrong. Time will tell.
post #5474 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick46 View Post

Well the black level changes have started for my 2000hrs + 50" G15 as the black bars have turned dark gray. Not to noticable with low lights on in the room. I'll wait a couple of weeks to see what Panasonic says when they get back with our moderator MarkRubin. There is no sense in talking with a call center operator as that will be a waste of time.

This has now escalated on the US and UK front and I'm sure that they are looking at the cheapest fix without starting a board swap program. I'm sure the local repair shops would like that.

It's mind-blowingly ironic that one of the biggest reasons people bought plasmas was for their inky blacks, and instead there's a timebomb that makes them look worse than a free Dell monitor after a mere 2000 hrs? Unbelievable. And to think I almost bought a 2009 Panasonic Veira because of the cheerleading from this forum and elsewhere.
post #5475 of 11163
I got the v10 50". Ive got it on custom default "looks like vivid". the only thing that makes the blacks look black.

Now I am noticing that magenta string on faces and a posterizing effect in darks especially on faces.and going across my samsung blueray splash menu. its a blue gradation and there is a hard line towards the top.
Could this be from pushing it with default custom?

my THX looks greenish yellow and muddy...but its supossed to a little right?...how bad is bad to call support...

does anyone have a setting to use for the after voltage....please.....
post #5476 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

I've always thought slosvt's last MLL jump (to 0.030 fL and now 0.026) was a bit of suspect because it coincided with the FW update.

Originally Posted by mmoh00
slosvt,

How do you know it's the 1000 hr mark as opposed to the new THX FW installation that caused the black level rise? And I asume you've re-calibrated the set fully for minimum MLL?

Hi all, I think I asked this a while back and didn't see anything. I'm having a tech come out next week to do the THX fix on our 54g10.

Does anyone know, could this be related to the Black level rise? If so, I need to know so I can stay away from it.

Also, talked with the rep today, and read me the standard "Bob Perry" reply, but did add if there was anything new they would be contacting me.

I told the rep, Heaven help them on their 2010 sales if they don't release a fix.
post #5477 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper View Post

He has definitely not fixed the problem. 0.018ftL is still well above the levels the TV should be at.

What is interesting, though, is that another user posted similar experiences with his TV earlier in the thread. However, I'm pretty sure that user experienced darker blacks in 60Hz, whereas an input with a 24Hz input showed lighter blacks.

This is a little bit interesting. I do not use the 24hz setting. I do not have raised blacks with around 2k hrs on set.
post #5478 of 11163
Can someone explain why one would change the hz settings, and how this is done/checked through the service menu? Sorry for the noob question : ) .
post #5479 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbrn View Post

Can someone explain why one would change the hz settings, and how this is done/checked through the service menu? Sorry for the noob question : ) .

In the regular menu under Advanced Picture - 24p Direct In
Not all TV's have this option.
post #5480 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallmwallm View Post

I am no HDTV fanatic. I don't make a lot of money and I really love movies and I wanted to splurge on something I love. I got the TC-P50V10 cause I wanted to tweak it and get the best picture. I kept hearing about a greenish tint with lesser models. I figured with following what u guys did I should make the plunge and get the Pana that had all the controls.

2 weeks ago i noticed my blacks didnt look black. I was getting all this burn in look from the screen when the screen went dark after bars or ticker tapes were displayed for a short time. i felt a sudden saddness that I thought it was getting old or something but i new it wasnt right. Do I have a right to call Pana?
Then I heard about it on cnet. I wasnt going crazy.

I really want this fixed. I remember Bakara having a almost 3D look to it and it just doesnt look as real anymore.

Also..who is the winner now? where would u put the quailty of this set to other LCD & Plasmas now that the black is so different? If you say it's still far and above other sets still, I can live with it. But if many put these sets down on the best list, i will really be unhappy. This one time I wanted to spend my money on the best.

My brother has the G15 for about 6 months now. My low-end Sony Bravia EX500 (LCD) with Auto Contrast Enhancer set to Medium easily trumps the blacks on his G15. I can barely differentiate the bezel from the black bars on mine. The higher-end Sony models like the NX800 (with the Deep Black panels) have even better blacks than the EX500.

So no, it's not even close to being "far and above other sets." My brother's G15 current black level is actually worse than my 3 year old Bravia S3000 panel with a 600:1 contrast ratio.
post #5481 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

have you any patent knowledge about how Samsung and LG handle the Voltage increases to the pixels. Do they also elevate the MLL, or not? Thanks

Took a quick look and didn’t find anything suggesting they increase reset/initializing voltage over time. However, I found the following info regarding discharge start voltage changes.

This Samsung patent seems to confirm the Panasonic patent regarding temperature.

”A conventional power supply applies the same driving voltage to components to drive the PDP irrespective of temperature. However, a PDP's discharge voltage and discharge characteristics vary depending on temperature. That is, the discharge voltage decreases when the temperature increases, and the discharge voltage increases when the temperature decreases. In particular, an opposed discharge may be generated stronger between two electrodes at a high temperature than between two electrodes at a low temperature. Hence, the generated discharge is not constant when the power supply supplies the same driving voltage irrespective of PDP temperature.”

This LG patent seems to also contradict the Panasonic patent regarding accumulated operational time and voltage. It also mentions image retention as an issue due to improper wall charge which I speculated on a while back.

” Long time driving of the plasma display apparatus reduces a discharge initiation voltage because of impure gas or contaminant particles existing within the plasma display apparatus, or an irregular distribution of wall charges. The reduction of the discharge initiation voltage causes a drawback of inducing an erroneous discharge such as turning on a cell to turn off, and generating a spot because of a sustain discharge even without an address discharge. In particular, in case where an image is converted into a different image after being continuously displayed, there is a drawback of generating a residual image spot in which the spot is generated in a residual image portion..”

This LG patent seems to suggest that LG incorporates an circuit to measure operational time and increase the brightness of the display to compensate for phosphor degradation.

” The present invention relates to a plasma display apparatus and driving method thereof. The plasma display apparatus and driving method thereof according to an embodiment of the present invention changes the number of sustain pulses according to a total operating time of a plasma display panel. The plasma display apparatus and driving method thereof according to an embodiment of the present invention can prevent a decrease in luminance and a decrease in the picture quality, which are incurred by an increase in a total operating time.”
post #5482 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinea View Post

My brother has the G15 for about 6 months now. My low-end Sony Bravia EX500 (LCD) with Auto Contrast Enhancer on Medium easily trumps the blacks on his G15. I can barely differentiate the bezel from the black bars on mine.

So no, it's not even close to being "far and above other sets." The G15's black levels are actually worse than my 3 year old Bravia S3000 panel with a 600:1 contrast ratio.

This isn't an accurate representation of black levels, though. The contrast enhancement features of TV's simply take the gamma and do naughty things to it, basically making the picture a total inaccurate mess. And to most people, completely unwatchable. I'd actually like to see the shadowed side of faces, opposed to watching faces that look like they have been painted half black.

At ideal gamma levels, the 12G Panasonic plasmas will far outdo the majority of LCD's, even after considerable luminance rise, including the S3000's. And by considerable I mean final measurements in the 0.01* range. We've already seen pictures of 0.02* 12G's being bested by low-quality TN panel computer monitors. Disgusting.
post #5483 of 11163
are back or never left. just had a tech out the other day to replace a board he thought was the cause. well i watched the hockey game today and the flicker/flashing was still present. i only see this on white scenes like ice or snow or very bright scenes like bright blue sky ect... black levels seems to be the same. IR seems to be just as bad as before the board replacement. i was going to wait to call panasonic on monday ,but they actually called me ,which i was happily surprised by. they advised me to contact the tech again and go from there. i will post back what they find next week.
post #5484 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post

some of you need to drink the Kona coffee and wake up. Panasonic has basically stated there's nothing wrong with the 2009 models, that they were built to be what they are today. It's in Black and White, I can't believe that some of you have that optomistic feelings that Panasonic will do something to calm down the owners of their products.

how can you be so naive? I'm starting to believe there's one born every minute!

What people believe is up to them. I don't believe this is over yet because of all the bad publicity. Read post #5184 which suggests something may happen.

If in a few weeks or so, if nothing is forthcoming, I will put Panasonic phone number in my daily planner and give them a call daily.

Also, in addition to calling Panasonic I would like to suggest that everyone that has a problem to call their Vendor and other vendor's to express their displeasure. Especially "Best Buy" their largest customer. Remember the Vendors are their customers, if they don't order or cut back on their orders it affects Panasonic bottom Line.

D nice stated that Panasonic can fix it so lets encourage them instead of ranting.
post #5485 of 11163
is it just me or do these TV's look better after being on for a few hours?

has anyone tried measuring their levels from a 'cold start' (like being off all night long) and then again after being on for 2, 4, and 6 hours?

just curious...

thanks,
..dane
post #5486 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper View Post

This isn't an accurate representation of black levels, though. The contrast enhancement features of TV's simply take the gamma and do naughty things to it, basically making the picture a total inaccurate mess. And to most people, completely unwatchable. I'd actually like to see the shadowed side of faces, opposed to watching faces that look like they have been painted half black.

At ideal gamma levels, the 12G Panasonic plasmas will far outdo the majority of LCD's, even after considerable luminance rise, including the S3000's. And by considerable I mean final measurements in the 0.01* range. We've already seen pictures of 0.02* 12G's being bested by low-quality TN panel computer monitors. Disgusting.

Sony's ACE on Medium setting doesn't look that bad... You can still see the details of shadows pretty well. I just watched the Half-Blood Prince last night, which has a lot of dark scenes, and it looked great. It only looks horrendous when you have ACE up on High and the Black contrast on High too. Then not only do you have half the face being black, you also have annoying auto-dimming at every single dark scene.

We spent a lot of time trying to get the blacks on my brother's Viera to look like mine. We just couldn't do it. I really don't think the Panasonic plasmas can get as dark as the newer Bravias. I'm going to be returning my EX500 for an NX700/800 though, as I liked Bravia Engine 3's skin tone reproduction more. The NX series has even better blacks, although some of that might be due to the glass.

Fundamentally, the advantages of plasmas over LCDs are getting smaller and smaller. Issues like rising blacks are really final kicks in the bucket.
post #5487 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

This is a little bit interesting. I do not use the 24hz setting. I do not have raised blacks with around 2k hrs on set.

are you talking about your 54V10? do you have any measurements confirming the lack of rise that you could add to the database? that would be quite helpful....
post #5488 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigdaddye View Post

are back or never left. just had a tech out the other day to replace a board he thought was the cause. well i watched the hockey game today and the flicker/flashing was still present. i only see this on white scenes like ice or snow or very bright scenes like bright blue sky ect... black levels seems to be the same. IR seems to be just as bad as before the board replacement. i was going to wait to call panasonic on monday ,but they actually called me ,which i was happily surprised by. they advised me to contact the tech again and go from there. i will post back what they find next week.

Nothing is wrong with your TV set. I see the same flickering on my 46G10.
It is just how it works, and on AVS forum they had thread about it. Do not let your TV being butchered anymore because there is nothing that can be done, except maybe to sue Panasonic for THX, black levels and flickering.
post #5489 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukic View Post

Nothing is wrong with your TV set. I see the same flickering on my 46G10.
It is just how it works, and on AVS forum they had thread about it. Do not let your TV butchered anymore because there is nothing that can be done, except maybe to sue Panasonic for THX, black levels and flickering.

Yep, it is normal, especially with Hockey.
post #5490 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post

Will everyone who has posted a measured mll please state if they had 48 or 60hz selected at the tv level? I was messing around last night and noticed I didn't change the tv back to 48hz after the THX update and my last reading. After making the change back to 48hz my tv consistently measured back to .018 ftL. I quickly changed the tv back to 60hz and the net result was an increase to .026 after checking the pluge pattern. The measurements were taken with a i1 d2 lt, ps3, avs 709 and chromapure.

Mine is grayed out at 60hz. Reading is .025 on THX Warm. Interesting find. I suspect most people who measure their sets would not set it to 48hz as the flicker would be unbearable.

Clarkebar - Great post.
Greenland - One of those Samsung LED's has a stand that looks like its a coat hangar. Will be interesting to see how 2010 pans out.
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